The Auswine Forum

Mahmoud Ali wrote:That seems like an odd outcome considering the recent reviews on cellartracker (2015 to 2017), with the 1997 and 1998 getting more love than the 1996 vintage. Having to pour it down the sink suggests something must be wrong with bottles or else it was poorly stored.

Mahmoud.

PS: I'm not allowed to mention names but a fairly large retailer in Australia is selling the Wynn's BL Cabernet for A$32 per bottle.

both vintages perfectly cellared since release,and had not moved since being put into cellar (my bottles)
always found the 96 to be awful, both from my cellar and other sources. Overcropped to the max, mechanical harvesting, everything went wrong for Wynns that vintage. It is short, green, acidic and even a little sour. No signs of defective bottles. However, as you probably know, Wynns are notorious for having huge variation in the one civee in a single vintage, so perhaps i have been desperately unlucky.
98 never been a good wine, indeed, the 97 is a better wine.
Everything Black Label from 92-2000 not up to standard, lots of reasons for that.
I intentionally brought up the 96 and 98 to have a look, and source other people's opinions, and the results are above!!!

I tried this over the last 3 nights
Didn’t budge over the time, maybe a little bit from night 1 to night 2
Very good, but to me it is a drink now wine and over the next 5 - 10 years
It just doesn’t seem to have the acid and structure to go long, but look forward to being proven wrong in 20 years!

felixp21 wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:That seems like an odd outcome considering the recent reviews on cellartracker (2015 to 2017), with the 1997 and 1998 getting more love than the 1996 vintage. Having to pour it down the sink suggests something must be wrong with bottles or else it was poorly stored.

PS: I'm not allowed to mention names but a fairly large retailer in Australia is selling the Wynn's BL Cabernet for A$32 per bottle.

both vintages perfectly cellared since release,and had not moved since being put into cellar (my bottles)
always found the 96 to be awful, both from my cellar and other sources. Overcropped to the max, mechanical harvesting, everything went wrong for Wynns that vintage. It is short, green, acidic and even a little sour. No signs of defective bottles. However, as you probably know, Wynns are notorious for having huge variation in the one civee in a single vintage, so perhaps i have been desperately unlucky.
98 never been a good wine, indeed, the 97 is a better wine.
Everything Black Label from 92-2000 not up to standard, lots of reasons for that.
I intentionally brought up the 96 and 98 to have a look, and source other people's opinions, and the results are above!!!

Well, the proof is in the bottle as they say (apologies to the pudding). Only one way for me to find out: find one of my bottles and OPEN it!

Mahmoud.

Edit: By that I mean my 1996 BL.

Not sure I entirely agree with you Felix, but maybe that's a predictable response as I admit I'm a Wynns fan. Recently tasted the '94 and it was very good. Also had a '98 recently and it too seemed better that you describe. Bear in mind that I've been tasting Wynns in real time since the mid-70's, the BL vintages that I haven't tasted are few. While I don't regard the late 90's as absolutely great years, for me they are not as you describe.

Having said that, I am in the camp of not sure how long the '15 will go. Just seems a bit too "nice" now.

So once the dust settles, there's no real rush for the 2015. The initial excitement seems to be the wine's price when picked up at mates-rates or a Dan's giveaway?

Moving on to the 15 Riddoch then !

JamieBahrain wrote:So once the dust settles, there's no real rush for the 2015. The initial excitement seems to be the wine's price when picked up at mates-rates or a Dan's giveaway?

Moving on to the 15 Riddoch then !

Yes agreed, got another email today...$27 a bottle for the BL...probably don't need anymore
Yes its a fine line between hype/bargain/lie of the the land.

The 15 JR will be pumped up more than a sure thing in the Spring carnival!!!

If it can be found for under a $100 then its a good buy (can't believe I actually said that). The 15 single vineyard should be good too...means that the Michael might be in the shadow (aka hopeful discounting).
Cheers
Craig

phillisc wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:So once the dust settles, there's no real rush for the 2015. The initial excitement seems to be the wine's price when picked up at mates-rates or a Dan's giveaway?

Moving on to the 15 Riddoch then !

Yes agreed, got another email today...$27 a bottle for the BL...probably don't need anymore
Yes its a fine line between hype/bargain/lie of the the land.

The 15 JR will be pumped up more than a sure thing in the Spring carnival!!!

If it can be found for under a $100 then its a good buy (can't believe I actually said that). The 15 single vineyard should be good too...means that the Michael might be in the shadow (aka hopeful discounting).
Cheers
Craig

'15 JR is coming out next Spring? Still haven't seen '13 and '14 yet, or if no such vintage release?

phillisc wrote:If it can be found for under a $100 (the JR) then its a good buy (can't believe I actually said that).

Neither can I Craig, neither can I. Surely back vintages would cost less, no?

Mahmoud.

FredericoWines wrote:

phillisc wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:So once the dust settles, there's no real rush for the 2015. The initial excitement seems to be the wine's price when picked up at mates-rates or a Dan's giveaway?

Moving on to the 15 Riddoch then !

Yes agreed, got another email today...$27 a bottle for the BL...probably don't need anymore
Yes its a fine line between hype/bargain/lie of the the land.

The 15 JR will be pumped up more than a sure thing in the Spring carnival!!!

If it can be found for under a $100 then its a good buy (can't believe I actually said that). The 15 single vineyard should be good too...means that the Michael might be in the shadow (aka hopeful discounting).
Cheers
Craig

'15 JR is coming out next Spring? Still haven't seen '13 and '14 yet, or if no such vintage release?

I was told there will be no ‘14 JR released...in Australia !

No '14 period. '13 JR still plenty around at $105-120. '15 out August 2018. Treasury also has 2010/12 kicking around. As for back vintages I have picked up 84,85,87,88 and 92-94 all for $55-70ish
Cheers
Craig

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I'd certainly agree with Felix that the mid-late 90s for BL should have been better than they were.
And I haven't had an especially impressive 96 or 98 for the last few years either, so I'd agree there too.

Otoh, it's always been a modestly-priced wine.
Seems ungrateful to complain when the quality finally drops to match the price.
But then, most of the old Southcorp brands were doing that, weren't they?
Just don't go buying the 14/15 vintages thinking you're getting the same value-for-quality you got with the 1986 & 1990/1991.
cheers,
Graeme

GraemeG wrote:I'd certainly agree with Felix that the mid-late 90s for BL should have been better than they were.
And I haven't had an especially impressive 96 or 98 for the last few years either, so I'd agree there too.

Otoh, it's always been a modestly-priced wine.
Seems ungrateful to complain when the quality finally drops to match the price.
But then, most of the old Southcorp brands were doing that, weren't they?
Just don't go buying the 14/15 vintages thinking you're getting the same value-for-quality you got with the 1986 & 1990/1991.
cheers,
Graeme

Agreed mid 80s Kalimna's had more oomph and class than wines in the current portfolio that either use this fruit and/or are grossly overpriced today.
Probably the same for Koonunga Hill's of that era too!

I love 86 BL... purchased 2 dozen on release at $9 a bottle, thinking it was a fraction dear at the time compared with wines like Galway Hermitage, Blass yellow label, KS red ribbon. Now...oh well, just a couple left.

Cheers
Craig

Sean wrote:A couple of rather dismissive comments have been made that I really don’t want to let go through to the keeper.

First, whether or not the 15 will be a twenty year wine. I am not sure it really matters if you buy the BL year in, year out and have other vintages in the cellar ...........

................... but in twenty years time, that won’t really matter to someone opening that wine. Or how much it cost at the time. It will be the wine in the glass that matters - and everyone can only guess at that.

An excellent post Sean, offering an informative perspective. Thanks.

Sean wrote:Second, it is interesting that the 90’s vintages have their critics now. In some ways that is not surprising given what was happening at the time. But to be fair to Peter Douglas who was the winemaker at the time (and Sue Hodder who had been his assistant) it was definitely a period when the BL was a workhorse for Wynns and their corporate owner.

Nothing has really changed too much in that regard. The volume of wine produced was being ramped up and that era of mechanisation in the vineyard had got out of control. I think it was the 96 vintage when Sue Hodder took over or around that time anyway.

When I visited the Coonawarra in early 2001, according to what I was told, the only winery that still harvested manually was Zema Estates.

Mahmoud.

Sean wrote:A couple of rather dismissive comments have been made that I really don’t want to let go through to the keeper. .

Sean, great post, I enjoyed your slant on things

Mahmoud Ali wrote:When I visited the Coonawarra in early 2001, according to what I was told, the only winery that still harvested manually was Zema Estates.

Mechanical harvesting is the norm, but its not quite universal, the smaller vineyards use handpicking for some of their grapes. I know for a fact that Balnaves handpick the grapes for the Tally from the Dead Morris block etc. That all started on Easter Thursday this year, quite late compared with the last few years. On the other hand, on the same day I noticed the mechanical harvester going to work at both Redman and Majella.

What does give me the irrits is the extent of mechanical pruning. Rows upon rows of vine hedges in some vineyards, how they expect good quality grapes is beyond me. (Good thing I don't spend much time in Padthaway ). I assume someone comes through every few years and does a hatchet job on the hedges, and if they don't, then they bloody well should.

The other morning the 2014 BL was $44 at ADL Duty Free. I was quickly corralled then hounded by DF staff to buy but I pointed out it should be $44 for two.

I gave myself a free facial using Jurlique samples and a few sprays of the latest eau de toilette and moved on- about all Duty Free is good for.

phillisc wrote:Agreed mid 80s Kalimna's had more oomph and class than wines in the current portfolio that either use this fruit and/or are grossly overpriced today. Probably the same for Koonunga Hill's of that era too! Craig

The Koonunga Hills from the 80s may have been good but the 1996 Koonunga Hill is an excellent wine. On the 20th anniversary of Koonunga Hill Shirax-Cabernet, a UK wine magazine featured a story about it and tasted through either all or a range of vintages from 1976 to 1996, the then latest release. They figures that the 1996 was as good as, and likely as as long-lived as the 1976 wine. It was then that I called home and asked my mother to pick up a six-pack of the 1996 Koonunga Hill. Now I wasn't completely unfamiliar with Koonunga Hill at the time because years earlier I had tasted the 1989 and was impressed enough to put a\away a couple of bottles to see what would hapen.

Years later, in about 2002/2003, I opened a bottle of the 1989, when it was about 13/14 years old. It was an eye-opener. A friend who was the manager of a wine store and owns the best fine wine store in Edmonton, remarked that the '89 was better than any of the 1997 Penfolds Bin wines he had recently tasted at an industry show. The 1996 was opened in 2010, also when 14 years old, but this one was still dark, youthful, and firm. In fact a friend said he was surprised I served such a young wine. Imagine his surprise whe I told him what it was.

I suspect my '96 BL needs drinking before the '96 KH.

Mahmoud.

I ended up with 8 bottles since the release, based primarily on the hype. Yes, I have enjoyed the first bottle I tried but some part of me feels that the wine maker has ‘sexed’ this vintage up to achieve the great to drink now experience, perhaps part of the PR juggernaut prior to the 15 JR release. It is certainly a nice wine however I don’t believe the 15 BL is anywhere near the upper echelons of Australian Cabernet.

JamieBahrain wrote:I gave myself a free facial using Jurlique samples and a few sprays of the latest eau de toilette and moved on- about all Duty Free is good for.

Sometimes Duty Free is good for this:
Free of cost.

Mahmoud.

And at the same airport, also free of cost, and self serve to boot, this:
Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

I picked up another 2 bottles in the 2-for-50 from VC

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

phillisc wrote:Agreed mid 80s Kalimna's had more oomph and class than wines in the current portfolio that either use this fruit and/or are grossly overpriced today. Probably the same for Koonunga Hill's of that era too! Craig

The Koonunga Hills from the 80s may have been good but the 1996 Koonunga Hill is an excellent wine. On the 20th anniversary of Koonunga Hill Shirax-Cabernet, a UK wine magazine featured a story about it and tasted through either all or a range of vintages from 1976 to 1996, the then latest release. They figures that the 1996 was as good as, and likely as as long-lived as the 1976 wine. It was then that I called home and asked my mother to pick up a six-pack of the 1996 Koonunga Hill. Now I wasn't completely unfamiliar with Koonunga Hill at the time because years earlier I had tasted the 1989 and was impressed enough to put a\away a couple of bottles to see what would hapen.

Years later, in about 2002/2003, I opened a bottle of the 1989, when it was about 13/14 years old. It was an eye-opener. A friend who was the manager of a wine store and owns the best fine wine store in Edmonton, remarked that the '89 was better than any of the 1997 Penfolds Bin wines he had recently tasted at an industry show. The 1996 was opened in 2010, also when 14 years old, but this one was still dark, youthful, and firm. In fact a friend said he was surprised I served such a young wine. Imagine his surprise whe I told him what it was.

I suspect my '96 BL needs drinking before the '96 KH.

Mahmoud.

Many years ago I saw a vertical of KH at auction, IIRC about a dozen bottles finishing at 1996 and I think as far back as the 1976. Loads of other Aussie wines there, but as it was down on the south coast I put absentee bids in with instructions to stop bids if I got 2 lots. All went stupid cheap (maybe 25-30% of retail including buyer's premium). These were later in the auction so I missed out - it's probably the one lot I still wonder about. Very happy with the Craiglee Shiraz & Tower Estate (Hunter Shiraz & Coonawarra Cabernet) that I bought cheaply, however had I been there in person, I would surely have thrown that 2 lot limit and returned with a year's supply for 3-4 year's wine budget!

Mahmoud Ali wrote: I suspect my '96 BL needs drinking before the '96 KH.

I seriously doubt it

mjs wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote: I suspect my '96 BL needs drinking before the '96 KH.

I seriously doubt it

I for one am very pleased with your confidence in the '96 Black Label. Perhaps when I return home from Australia this winter (my winter, Aussie summer) I should open both the BL and KH (both should be in the same box) and make a comparison. It just occurred to me that both these '96 Aussie wines were bought by my mother while I was overseas.

Thanks Mum ................ Mahmoud.

Just picked up a case of the '15 at $22.50 / bottle. Will try not to plunder the stocks in the short term

trufflequeen wrote:Just picked up a case of the '15 at $22.50 / bottle. Will try not to plunder the stocks in the short term

Sharp price. sharper than TWE staff pricing.

Only the '14 is available here so far! Where do they get the grapes to make "The Siding"? This makes a good everyday drop, especially the '11 and '12.

That is the TWE price!
Ive already comsumed a 6 pack of 15' this year.
Such great drinking now