The Auswine Forum

Very interesting article on Diam
https://www.burgundy-report.com/burgundy-rep ... mpiricism/
select quotes from the article

The formulation used by DIAM for putting their seal back together includes 95% of the processed cork, polyurethane (isocyanate) adhesive and some (plastic) microspheres to aid durability.

I have a high level of interest in the reports of those people who say that DIAM taints a wine, and that they can taste and identify the ‘bitter’ effects of a DIAM-sealed bottle – blind. Are they super-super-tasters? There seems only a single (German) source for this, which you may find on the internet. But I don’t actually know anyone who can do this – including winemakers

Edit May-2020: Over time, and very many bottles, I have noted that I can detect DIAM-sealed bottles, but specifically those bottled that have been sealed with no change in the sulfur regime that the producer used for normal corks. There is a typical – but unique – style of reduction that smells exactly like cornflakes. It is a phase that lasts for up to one year in bottle – or indeed 10 minutes in the glass – and then it is gone.

The bitterness was a claim by one person evidently.

According to French site Vitisphere, one of Diam’s oenologues and directors, Alain Schmitt, once he heard of the ‘findings’, went to meet Cordes and came away less than impressed.

He told Vitisphere: “Mr Cordes is an fantasist who wants to cause a stir. He works in a museum and opens his garage two times a week to sell some bottles of wine. It was in this same garage that he conducted his pseudo-study.

“He didn’t bother to compare Diam to other corks and came up with no other analysis (SO2 or O2 levels)”.

He continued that Cordes had confused reduction and bitterness and that wines with low pH levels and high levels of sulfites could appear “hard” and closed several months after bottling, becoming more expressive over time.

[/quote]

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

Cloth Ears wrote: Definitely - more to the point, vinyl compared to digital.

Vinyl please. Part of my dream the other day involved finding my old turntable, a wood base Yamaha with a belt drive, covered in dust but still working. The only problem was that the cartridge was missing from the tone arm. For the life of me I cannot say how this fit into the rest of my dream. Back when I was looking into buying a stereo system many audiophiles swore by tube amplifiers over solid state.

Of course none of this has much to do with the topic at hand but sometime thread drift is entertaining.

Cheers .................. Mahmoud.

I definitely enjoy the zen of taking out the record, cleaning it and placing it on the turntable. Just as I enjoy the process of cutting the capsule and removing the cork.
The vinyl has the added advantage of being 12x12 - so In the Court of the Crimson King definitely looks better on vinyl (my little sister couldn't stand to be in the same room as the cover).
But, on the other hand, all records are digitally mastered first and then mixed down to be able to be cut to vinyl - losing both range and dynamics. And it's certain that wines under cork age differently (and faster) than those under digital enclosures (LOL).
I had a bottle of both cork and screwcap Petaluma Riesling (04), which I took along to a tasting one night. The cork one was way past and a little tainted while the screwcap was young and fresh still. But the jury is still out on long-term cellaring of non-cork, as there really weren't any reliable caps until the early 00's and the red take-up was pretty slow. I think it'll be at least another 10 years before we can see whether it's worth it for the big reds (I'm going to be keeping an eye on the Warrabillas).

BTW, Mahmoud, tubes are still a good bet. Again, the individual tubes have a non-infinite lifespan, so they need to have an eye kept on them. But there similar (non-tube) amps that have similar topology that have a similar sound, all really good sounding guitar amps are tubes, and when you're really into spending $100,000 on each individual amplifier, you really only have tubes in that category...

If it sounds good, I'll listen - but i have to have to shop carefully to get my champagne tastes satisfied on my beer budget

Similar with wine - which generally means I buy local and screwcap. Or auction for occasional cork caps - cheap Coonawarra's are really reliable from the 90's!

Back to the topic at hand - I think it's probably over until the results are in.

Cloth ears wrote:

I definitely enjoy the zen of taking out the record, cleaning it and placing it on the turntable. Just as I enjoy the process of cutting the capsule and removing the cork.
The vinyl has the added advantage of being 12x12 - so In the Court of the Crimson King definitely looks better on vinyl (my little sister couldn't stand to be in the same room as the cover).
But, on the other hand, all records are digitally mastered first and then mixed down to be able to be cut to vinyl - losing both range and dynamics. And it's certain that wines under cork age differently (and faster) than those under digital enclosures (LOL).
I had a bottle of both cork and screwcap Petaluma Riesling (04), which I took along to a tasting one night. The cork one was way past and a little tainted while the screwcap was young and fresh still. But the jury is still out on long-term cellaring of non-cork, as there really weren't any reliable caps until the early 00's and the red take-up was pretty slow. I think it'll be at least another 10 years before we can see whether it's worth it for the big reds (I'm going to be keeping an eye on the Warrabillas).

BTW, Mahmoud, tubes are still a good bet. Again, the individual tubes have a non-infinite lifespan, so they need to have an eye kept on them. But there similar (non-tube) amps that have similar topology that have a similar sound, all really good sounding guitar amps are tubes, and when you're really into spending $100,000 on each individual amplifier, you really only have tubes in that category...

If it sounds good, I'll listen - but i have to have to shop carefully to get my champagne tastes satisfied on my beer budget

Similar with wine - which generally means I buy local and screwcap. Or auction for occasional cork caps - cheap Coonawarra's are really reliable from the 90's!

Back to the topic at hand - I think it's probably over until the results are in.

Hah! Love the analogy (analogie?).
But you never had to try and return your vinyl coz it was flawed (or maybe it always was and that's the beauty of it!).
In regards to long term cellaring under screwcap, that went back to the 70's under Leasingham I believe ( I stand corrected on that), and those bottlings were the foundation of the screwcap movement 20 years later.
By the way... I'm a Bass player, and value my valve amps over anything!

On this forum, the participants may have a decent inventory of cork Vs screwcap? Does anyone have same vintage 6 packs or full case? Would be another interesting thread to start in a similar vein to the wendouree and nebbiolo ones we have...i.e. ongoing update on cork Vs screwcap tasting. Personally I pay little attention to the closure so I don't know what I have..... Booo

I have a dozen or so of 02 Petaluma Riesling under cork and maybe 20 bottles under screw cap. Had a screw cap edition at Christmas and still a baby. Must look at a cork version soon.
Even though I have been buying Bowen for 30 years did not realise that there have been screw cap versions since 2012 vintage. I have picked up a case of cork/screw cap of the 18s... will be good to have a look in a decade or so.
Cheers Craig

I think I'm planning to put the closure on all my tasting notes going forward. It would be interesting to look back upon.

phillisc wrote:I have a dozen or so of 02 Petaluma Riesling under cork and maybe 20 bottles under screw cap.

Craig I know you over-buy Riesling but do you seriously still today in 2020 have approximately thirty-two (32) bottles of 2002 Petaluma??? Even for you that is aggressive...

Dragzworthy wrote:I think I'm planning to put the closure on all my tasting notes going forward. It would be interesting to look back upon.

Agreed, I only don't bother now because nothing I drink in Europe is screw cap (I mean literally the half dozen Grosset Springvale I picked up a few months back is the ONLY thing I have bought here with a screw cap)... but this discussion makes me think I should note if good cork, poor cork, Diam etc...

A surprising number of French wines even into the $20-30 AU equivalent bracket still have some type of plastic corks which went the way of the dodo in Oz.

phillisc wrote:I have a dozen or so of 02 Petaluma Riesling under cork and maybe 20 bottles under screw cap. Had a screw cap edition at Christmas and still a baby. Must look at a cork version soon.
Even though I have been buying Bowen for 30 years did not realise that there have been screw cap versions since 2012 vintage. I have picked up a case of cork/screw cap of the 18s... will be good to have a look in a decade or so.
Cheers Craig

That wine (Petaluma 2002 Riesling) under screwcap/cork is a great comparison...and one that is really decisive for that style of wine IMO.

I saw that Bill Nanson (Burgundy Report) article too. It's interesting that in Oz and NZ, the screwcap rather quickly became the 'alternative' closure of choice, but in the Old World, they were much more resistant to change and are slowly moving to the Diam (developed later than the screwcap), seemingly because it is closer to 'normal' cork and would be much more accepted by the buying public and winemakers in places like Burgundy. Will this slow change in the Old World, especially in Burgundy - perhaps the creme de creme of all wine regions in terms of status - lead to Diam starting to replace screwcaps in the Antipodes, especially in the most premium wines? Does anyone see that happening in the Antipodes?

sjw_11 wrote:

phillisc wrote:I have a dozen or so of 02 Petaluma Riesling under cork and maybe 20 bottles under screw cap.

Craig I know you over-buy Riesling but do you seriously still today in 2020 have approximately thirty-two (32) bottles of 2002 Petaluma??? Even for you that is aggressive...

Sam think I initially purchased a case of each (they came in 12s back then). Then the hype train about the vintage took over and I think I picked up another 6 of each. Yes think over time l have only drunk 3-4.

Have realised and it's a bit sad, but I don't know many souls who like aged Rizza's and yes have probably brought too much.
Cheers Craig

sjw_11 wrote:

Dragzworthy wrote:I think I'm planning to put the closure on all my tasting notes going forward. It would be interesting to look back upon.

Agreed, I only don't bother now because nothing I drink in Europe is screw cap (I mean literally the half dozen Grosset Springvale I picked up a few months back is the ONLY thing I have bought here with a screw cap)... but this discussion makes me think I should note if good cork, poor cork, Diam etc...

A surprising number of French wines even into the $20-30 AU equivalent bracket still have some type of plastic corks which went the way of the dodo in Oz.

The weird thing I find is that my wine doesn't like to drink and I wake up reasonably early for work and exercise so generally only like to have a glass or so mid week by myself. I decided to make the plunge and buy a coravin. Since then I have been buying more old world wines as the screwcap closure component is an extra cost...weird that a coravin has resulted in me buying more cork closed wines.

A lot of this debate I’ve read similar opinions and have been drinking/researching trying to make a decision.

One thing I haven’t seen discussed yet is semillon. I read that the change to screw cap saved producers 10-20% of the bottles oxidising before they left the building. Huge upside. I’ve had some 03,04,05 etc. that have showed barely any change whatsoever. Glad my bottle is sound but will it ever be the highly evolved textural wines I’ve had under cork? Or is it just a matter of a much longer wait (of which I have no problem).

In comparison riesling, marsanne, Chardonnay etc seem to age really well.

AdamR wrote:A lot of this debate I’ve read similar opinions and have been drinking/researching trying to make a decision.

One thing I haven’t seen discussed yet is semillon. I read that the change to screw cap saved producers 10-20% of the bottles oxidising before they left the building. Huge upside. I’ve had some 03,04,05 etc. that have showed barely any change whatsoever. Glad my bottle is sound but will it ever be the highly evolved textural wines I’ve had under cork? Or is it just a matter of a much longer wait (of which I have no problem).

In comparison riesling, marsanne, Chardonnay etc seem to age really well.

Sounds like the Vat 1 problem.

98/99 were so good and so ready to go around 2008/2009...
The ones under screwcap (I think some in 2003 and then normally in 2004) are still way too young...they've developed but still years away it feels like? Basically there is this gap where there was just going to be a lack of really good aged Vat1 until those screwcapped wines get to the right spot..maybe 5-10 years still? .

Vat 1: The weak years are fine: drink your 2012 and 2015 now! But yes, 04-05-06 can stand more time happily.
And a good 99 (all cork) is a joy.
But other semillons under screwcap show plenty of age: Elizabeth, McLeish, Andrew Thomas, Lovedale.

Dragzworthy wrote:On this forum, the participants may have a decent inventory of cork Vs screwcap? Does anyone have same vintage 6 packs or full case? Would be another interesting thread to start in a similar vein to the wendouree and nebbiolo ones we have...i.e. ongoing update on cork Vs screwcap tasting. Personally I pay little attention to the closure so I don't know what I have..... Booo

IMHO... my views on cork vs screw cap testing are:
- must be same wine (i.e. same vintage / same bottles, only the closure is different)
- white wines testing will never convince people as "red wines are different"
- cheap reds testing will never convince people as "top quality reds are made different and its about ageing"
- recognised top quality reds are not generally made with a choice of closures (at least not to the public)
- must have good / consistent storage
- must be tested at various points in the peak drinking window.
IMHO, if you don't follow the above, the testing is unlikely to tell us anything reliable / meaningful (says the naively ignorant accountant with no wine knowledge or scientific testing experience - lol!).

To this end I was very excited when I got my hands on some of the 2010 Penfold's St Henri. Not only because it was a "top wine" but it was also from a couple of different retailers and included some stock originally planned for export before they realised they could sell out in Australia. This meant I had over 3 bottles each under cork and under screwcap. This meets all of my testing criteria a top quality, age worthy red wine under each closure, both stored in the same 12 degree wine fridge since release (literally bough the day they arrived in the stores). My plan was to open one of each closure and taste side by side at each of the start, middle and end of the Winefront drinking window (i.e. 2020, 2030 and 2040).

I am useless at tasting notes so was thinking of trying to organise for other forum members in Perth to join me for the taste off and get their views also. Would be great to get half a dozen forum members views / tasting notes. At some point when the COVID stuff is over I will get around to organising it but no point trying to do so yet. I also travel to Sydney /Melbourne / Adelaide for work occasionally so could bring them for a taste off on a work trip if locals are keen. Given COVID, likely the first tasting will be delayed but that will do no harm. Feel free to PM me if you are interested but I will also do a post in the forum when things start to look possible again.

Cheers

p.s. if I was truly paranoid I would have also have considered that the export stock may have had different treatment / storage / movement (prior to being redirected to the local market) to the local stock, that the transport / storage would be different for the different retailers, that 12 degrees storage in my wine fridge is low for red wine and may suit the cork closure more than screwcap, and that individuals all have subjective taste and perception / preferences, which all could be factors tainting the test... but I'm not truly paranoid so I think my testing is perfect and will finally decide this once and for all in 2040!

p.s.s Of course I know already that this will prove nothing / change no-ones opinion.... but it will be fun and hopefully the wines will taste nice!

bdellabosca wrote:

Dragzworthy wrote:On this forum, the participants may have a decent inventory of cork Vs screwcap? Does anyone have same vintage 6 packs or full case? Would be another interesting thread to start in a similar vein to the wendouree and nebbiolo ones we have...i.e. ongoing update on cork Vs screwcap tasting. Personally I pay little attention to the closure so I don't know what I have..... Booo

IMHO... my views on cork vs screw cap testing are:
- must be same wine (i.e. same vintage / same bottles, only the closure is different)
- white wines testing will never convince people as "red wines are different"
- cheap reds testing will never convince people as "top quality reds are made different and its about ageing"
- recognised top quality reds are not generally made with a choice of closures (at least not to the public)
- must have good / consistent storage
- must be tested at various points in the peak drinking window.
IMHO, if you don't follow the above, the testing is unlikely to tell us anything reliable / meaningful (says the naively ignorant accountant with no wine knowledge or scientific testing experience - lol!).

To this end I was very excited when I got my hands on some of the 2010 Penfold's St Henri. Not only because it was a "top wine" but it was also from a couple of different retailers and included some stock originally planned for export before they realised they could sell out in Australia. This meant I had over 3 bottles each under cork and under screwcap. This meets all of my testing criteria a top quality, age worthy red wine under each closure, both stored in the same 12 degree wine fridge since release (literally bough the day they arrived in the stores). My plan was to open one of each closure and taste side by side at each of the start, middle and end of the Winefront drinking window (i.e. 2020, 2030 and 2040).

I am useless at tasting notes so was thinking of trying to organise for other forum members in Perth to join me for the taste off and get their views also. Would be great to get half a dozen forum members views / tasting notes. At some point when the COVID stuff is over I will get around to organising it but no point trying to do so yet. I also travel to Sydney /Melbourne / Adelaide for work occasionally so could bring them for a taste off on a work trip if locals are keen. Given COVID, likely the first tasting will be delayed but that will do no harm. Feel free to PM me if you are interested but I will also do a post in the forum when things start to look possible again.

Cheers

p.s. if I was truly paranoid I would have also have considered that the export stock may have had different treatment / storage / movement (prior to being redirected to the local market) to the local stock, that the transport / storage would be different for the different retailers, that 12 degrees storage in my wine fridge is low for red wine and may suit the cork closure more than screwcap, and that individuals all have subjective taste and perception / preferences, which all could be factors tainting the test... but I'm not truly paranoid so I think my testing is perfect and will finally decide this once and for all in 2040!

p.s.s Of course I know already that this will prove nothing / change no-ones opinion.... but it will be fun and hopefully the wines will taste nice!

I agree completely with the structure and arguments for a flat playing field on testing. Would love to help do that with you but alas in Singapore! My access to finding same vintage wines on screw Vs cork is pretty limited but I may try and hunt down some St Henri specifically now that I know they offered both, it may be one of the easier wines to do this with given its such a prominent maker.

phillisc wrote: Have realised and it's a bit sad, but I don't know many souls who like aged Rizza's and yes have probably brought too much.
Cheers Craig

I am sure there are quite a few people on this forum who would be happy to help you out!

sjw_11 wrote:

phillisc wrote: Have realised and it's a bit sad, but I don't know many souls who like aged Rizza's and yes have probably brought too much.
Cheers Craig

I am sure there are quite a few people on this forum who would be happy to help you out!

I remember Hunter suggested aged rizzas and golden boy as an offline a ways back. Sounded good to me at the time.
Sounds like Craig has good back vintage rizz stock if some of us are struggling in that dept. I do have some 2000 Reilly's WV rizz. I actually think it's under cork too. time for a sus.

Scotty V been wanting to try GB for some time...both my lads have said it's great. As for Riesling...that shouldn't be an issue.
BTW Hunter is a chef in the Barossa??? Guess times are tough... hope he's ok.
Cheers Craig

Well if international travel is ever possible again I plan to spend a couple of weeks back in Oz ... I was thinking an offline that started with a blind tasting of aged Riesling could be fun.

I don't have much before 2010 (only a couple of bottles of 2002/2005 Steingarten) but if we include 8-10 year old Riesling I have quite a few choices (Bests, Helm, Oleary Walker, Grosset, Skillogalee, Petaluma, Clonakilla, Steingarten, Pooley, Mt Horrocks, Kilikanoon)... come to look at it, I have way too much 2010-2012 AU Riesling. 59 bottles apparently. Yikes, somehow it just adds up.

Sorry for the thread drift from cork vs diam vs whatever to aged Riesling but meh!

If this were to happen in Melbourne, I would be keen.

Cf

I've been quite shocked. Six bottles of Piedmont wines opened this week and five bottles have been DIAM or similar.

Last night I had a 2013 Barolo in DIAM 10. It was beautiful and fresh- the aromatics pristine and flavour profile complex and multi-layered. The tannins were fruit-fury and stood out just a hint. Perhaps I wouldn't have noticed at this stage if it wasn't for this thread. The wine is a blend of Terlo and Novello vineyards which would usually have softer and more homogenised tannins. Could be the DIAM, however, its still all round very exciting for Old World drinkers where screw cap is a shunned or unsuitable an option.

Good to hear Jamie. We talk of winemakers having a choice, but some remain constrained by local regulations.

Ian S wrote: We talk of winemakers having a choice, but some remain constrained by local regulations.

I wonder how well suited red wines of Piedmont are for screw cap anyways? Tannic Barolo or reductive dolcetto aren't in my view ideal screw capped candidates. Perhaps this is why DIAM has taken off right before our eyes. Again, last night, six from seven Piedmontese bottles this week, a bottle of Sottimano dolcetto under DIAM 5.

However, some not constrained by DOCG laws are making a break-out with screw cap. Surprisingly Vigneti Massa and their Derthona. Under screw cap though it could also be due counterfeit concerns. Timorrasso can be quite "stationary" under cork, under screw cap more so, although if experience with Aussie whites under screw cap is solid to go by, wow, Derthona is a wine for the grandkids!

I opened a bottle of 2015 AR.PE.PE. Valtellina Superiore - Sassella Stella Retica a few days ago. It was sealed with a plant based closure called 'Nomacorc', which is derived from sugarcane. More info here if interested - [url]https://www.vinventions.com/en-us/nomacorc.[/url] This bottle has the 'Reserva' variant.

Ozzie W wrote:I opened a bottle of 2015 AR.PE.PE. Valtellina Superiore - Sassella Stella Retica a few days ago. It was sealed with a plant based closure called 'Nomacorc', which is derived from sugarcane. More info here if interested - [url]https://www.vinventions.com/en-us/nomacorc.[/url] This bottle has the 'Reserva' variant.

I have had this a few times as well.

Usually on organic wines and ties in with 'renewable/sustainable' wine making.

Benchmark wrote:

Ozzie W wrote:I opened a bottle of 2015 AR.PE.PE. Valtellina Superiore - Sassella Stella Retica a few days ago. It was sealed with a plant based closure called 'Nomacorc', which is derived from sugarcane. More info here if interested - [url]https://www.vinventions.com/en-us/nomacorc.[/url] This bottle has the 'Reserva' variant.

I have had this a few times as well.

Usually on organic wines and ties in with 'renewable/sustainable' wine making.

Its actually been getting a bit of popularity outside of that..some places swear by it...it doesn't seem to suffer the same problems as the old synthetic corks.