The Auswine Forum

Duncan Disorderly wrote:Not quite up to the standard of the ‘98 I had 18 months ago, but still a damn good drink. Best drinking on night 2 as it had a bit more structure, but held up well over six nights.

Chris Killeen (before his very sad and untimely passing) believed his 1997 was the greatest wine he ever made.
I have really enjoyed a couple and have a couple more in the cellar. I think the 30+ year mark is when they start to hit their stride

A very sad state of affairs: https://www.peterlehmannwines.com/wine/2019-the-king-vp/

2019 The King VP ... VINTAGE 2019 VARIETAL Tawny

Alex F wrote:A very sad state of affairs: https://www.peterlehmannwines.com/wine/2019-the-king-vp/

2019 The King VP ... VINTAGE 2019 VARIETAL Tawny

Must have been the work experience kid.

Alex F wrote:A very sad state of affairs: https://www.peterlehmannwines.com/wine/2019-the-king-vp/

2019 The King VP ... VINTAGE 2019 VARIETAL Tawny

With the Peter Lehmann VPs, isn't the number on the bottle supposed to be the year for drinking it? Not the year of production? The PL site says the wine is left to "rest and mature in our cellars for 6 or 7 years before release".

Waiters Friend wrote:

Alex F wrote:A very sad state of affairs: https://www.peterlehmannwines.com/wine/2019-the-king-vp/

2019 The King VP ... VINTAGE 2019 VARIETAL Tawny

With the Peter Lehmann VPs, isn't the number on the bottle supposed to be the year for drinking it? Not the year of production? The PL site says the wine is left to "rest and mature in our cellars for 6 or 7 years before release".

Correct, the AD year is the recommended drinking date which is 21 years from vintage. The AD2019 would be a 1998 vintage.

Cheers Con.

I have a few AD 2017 from the 1996 vintage and it was bought years ago. Amazing that the AD 2019 is only now being released.

Last week I opened three bottles to get a good one.
First one opened was the 1967 Reynella vintage port which smelled like a tawny and was drinkable but not what it should be.
Second Bottle opened was a 1966 Leo Buring vintage port which was badly oxidised.
Then I opened an All Saints 1958-64-67 blend old liqueur muscat and finally a smile when I smelled raisins and sweet fruit.
I love old Aussie fortified and often need to open more than one bottle to get a good one.

Cheers Con.

Prices creeping up, but always VFM and joy when one gets a good one...

Apologies about the formatting but I was watching some ports at a recent auction that didn't sell and these are the reserve prices.
Mostly Tawny as I guess the VP's all sold.

Does Tawny change with age or not?
Everything I read says it doesn't but surely 50 years must do something.

Please delete if not appropriate

SALTRAM The Great Australian Series John Flynn Tawny, Barossa Valley 1951 $150.00
ORLANDO Tawny Port, Barossa Valley 1963 $64.00
ORLANDO Bin 179 Port, Barossa Valley 1968 $69.00
ORLANDO Tawny Port, Barossa Valley 1957 $82.00
ORLANDO Tawny Port, Barossa Valley 1959 $184.00
HARDY'S Vintage Port, McLaren Vale 1972 $77.00
HARDY'S Bin M177 Show Tawny Port, McLaren Vale 1954 $138.00
HARDY'S Reserve BIN M127 Show Tawny Port, McLaren Vale 1951 $190.00
HARDY'S Reserve BIN M127 Show Tawny Port, McLaren Vale 1951 $128.00
HARDY'S Vintage Port, McLaren Vale 1972 $64.00
MCWILLIAM'S WINES Centenary Release Vintage Port, New South Wales 1977 $64.00
PENFOLDS 5 Star Club Tawny Port, South Australia 1956 $120.00
HARDY'S Reserve Bin M804 Vintage Port, South Australia 1966 $138.00
PENFOLDS 5 Star Club Tawny Port, South Australia 1950 $128.00

Hi Croquet King,

I think tawny port does change with age, and what I've noticed is that age tends to diminish the sweetness. A number of desert wines I was told ought to be drunk when fresh and would not improve in bottle did in fact improve. It happened with a colheita port, i.e. vintage tawny, a 20 year-old Jose Maria Fonseca Moscatel du Setubal with 20 years in bottle, and a Sevenhills tawny.

In your list the 1972 Hardy's VP is the only one I can address as I opened my bottle a few years ago. I bought it at East End Cellars back in 2001 for the equivalent of about a dollar a year. Of course VP is meant to age and improve in bottle but i can honestly say it wasn't particularly satisfying as it was too sweet, and almost cloying, for our taste and we moved on to something else. it was however better a couple of days later.

Mahmoud.

Croquet King wrote:Apologies about the formatting but I was watching some ports at a recent auction that didn't sell and these are the reserve prices.
Mostly Tawny as I guess the VP's all sold.

Does Tawny change with age or not?
Everything I read says it doesn't but surely 50 years must do something.

Please delete if not appropriate

SALTRAM The Great Australian Series John Flynn Tawny, Barossa Valley 1951 $150.00
ORLANDO Tawny Port, Barossa Valley 1963 $64.00
ORLANDO Bin 179 Port, Barossa Valley 1968 $69.00
ORLANDO Tawny Port, Barossa Valley 1957 $82.00
ORLANDO Tawny Port, Barossa Valley 1959 $184.00
HARDY'S Vintage Port, McLaren Vale 1972 $77.00
HARDY'S Bin M177 Show Tawny Port, McLaren Vale 1954 $138.00
HARDY'S Reserve BIN M127 Show Tawny Port, McLaren Vale 1951 $190.00
HARDY'S Reserve BIN M127 Show Tawny Port, McLaren Vale 1951 $128.00
HARDY'S Vintage Port, McLaren Vale 1972 $64.00
MCWILLIAM'S WINES Centenary Release Vintage Port, New South Wales 1977 $64.00
PENFOLDS 5 Star Club Tawny Port, South Australia 1956 $120.00
HARDY'S Reserve Bin M804 Vintage Port, South Australia 1966 $138.00
PENFOLDS 5 Star Club Tawny Port, South Australia 1950 $128.00

Overpriced in my opinion. I wouldn't pay more than $50 landed per bottle for old tawny port unless the labels in particular had rave reviews. In my limited experience* they seem to lose fruit richness with age, start exhibiting drying out notes, and sometimes can develop a mustiness that takes a while to blow away. They definitely change; often you will need to decant them to remove fine sediment just like other old wine. You are welcome to come try all my half opened auction purchases which I don't like to drink and fear to pour into my port barrel.

* a note on my experience: i haven't tried many of these labels but have dabbled a lot with these old fortifieds when they were about $20 a bottle at auction. A handful have been sublime but I would say 80% are very disappointing. In addition I am monitoring a six pack of the 1983 Seppelt 21 yo single vintage tawny as it ages. It's definitely not as good as it once was, to my tastes.

However, to talk about price, why would you pay ~$100 for a bottle when you can get the current Seppelt Single Vintage 21 year old for that amount. Even accounting for "it doesn't change", I am not inclined to believe that the base quality of the wines when they were bottled in the 50s is better than the currently released rare tawnies. Would love to be corrected by those that have first hand information of the wines that went into these bottles.

In general, my thoughts are that Australian fortifieds, particularly tawny ports, are severely undervalued. There is a surfeit of wines with average age > 20 year old for well under $100 a bottle. The Penfolds Grandfather is one great example of such a port that I really like.

Con J wrote:

Waiters Friend wrote:

Alex F wrote:A very sad state of affairs: https://www.peterlehmannwines.com/wine/2019-the-king-vp/

2019 The King VP ... VINTAGE 2019 VARIETAL Tawny

With the Peter Lehmann VPs, isn't the number on the bottle supposed to be the year for drinking it? Not the year of production? The PL site says the wine is left to "rest and mature in our cellars for 6 or 7 years before release".

Correct, the AD year is the recommended drinking date which is 21 years from vintage. The AD2019 would be a 1998 vintage.

Cheers Con.

I am pretty sure something is messed up. My best case scenario is that someone from marketing indeed screwed up the description: We can't be on the 1998 vintage, as I definitely bought the 2002 or 2004 not that long ago. Worse case, they are no longer giving it 15 years bottle age prior to release (i.e. it's really 2019 vintage). Worst case, it has indeed become some weird tawny port, i.e. the label has been bastardised.

Alex F wrote:

Con J wrote:

Waiters Friend wrote:
With the Peter Lehmann VPs, isn't the number on the bottle supposed to be the year for drinking it? Not the year of production? The PL site says the wine is left to "rest and mature in our cellars for 6 or 7 years before release".

Correct, the AD year is the recommended drinking date which is 21 years from vintage. The AD2019 would be a 1998 vintage.

Cheers Con.

I am pretty sure something is messed up. My best case scenario is that someone from marketing indeed screwed up the description: We can't be on the 1998 vintage, as I definitely bought the 2002 or 2004 not that long ago. Worse case, they are no longer giving it 15 years bottle age prior to release (i.e. it's really 2019 vintage). Worst case, it has indeed become some weird tawny port, i.e. the label has been bastardised.

Done some searching and found this on cellartracker.
Vintage 2019, AD2040.

Could this now be a young tawny with the release date as the vintage?

Cheers Con

It would be sad if it were a young tawny. I think it's more likely that it is a 2019 vintage port style. Can't quite bring myself to pay the same amount for a wine that used to be aged to perfection (will go with the Chambers 2004 Vintage Port instead). Although I never thought the strategy with the King vintage port was sustainable. At least Chambers has their other fortifieds to prop up any unprofitable side of their business.

Con J wrote:Last week I opened three bottles to get a good one.
First one opened was the 1967 Reynella vintage port which smelled like a tawny and was drinkable but not what it should be.
Second Bottle opened was a 1966 Leo Buring vintage port which was badly oxidised.
Then I opened an All Saints 1958-64-67 blend old liqueur muscat and finally a smile when I smelled raisins and sweet fruit.
I love old Aussie fortified and often need to open more than one bottle to get a good one.

Cheers Con.

Con

I have drank a few old red and white wines that appeared to be dead on arrival, but came back to life after a while either in the glass, bottle or decanter. Do these dead Ports ever change over a day or 2 ? I found it hard to believe the claims of Mr Audouze about oxidised wines coming back from the dead, but it does definetly happen.

I was also searching and found the 1981 Seppeltsfield VP for sale on their website.
I saw it in an auction for about $60 but was $40 from the winery - bizarre.

$10 delivery so I got a few to lie down

mychurch wrote:

Con J wrote:Last week I opened three bottles to get a good one.
First one opened was the 1967 Reynella vintage port which smelled like a tawny and was drinkable but not what it should be.
Second Bottle opened was a 1966 Leo Buring vintage port which was badly oxidised.
Then I opened an All Saints 1958-64-67 blend old liqueur muscat and finally a smile when I smelled raisins and sweet fruit.
I love old Aussie fortified and often need to open more than one bottle to get a good one.

Cheers Con.

Con

I have drank a few old red and white wines that appeared to be dead on arrival, but came back to life after a while either in the glass, bottle or decanter. Do these dead Ports ever change over a day or 2 ? I found it hard to believe the claims of Mr Audouze about oxidised wines coming back from the dead, but it does definetly happen.

Hi Cameron.

Yes some have resurrected after a couple of days but not many.

One that comes to mind was a few years back while opening a fortified for that night there were two dead bottles before I got a good one. These were 1967 and 1968 Yalumba VP’s, both double decanted, put some corks back in the bottles then put them in the cupboard. A couple of days later when I remembered they were still there I had a look at them before I was going to tip them down the sink. One was drinkable but the other alive and transformed into lovely old mature VP.

For this reason I always open and double decant all fortified wine the night before I take one to a function.

I would say the Reynella above was a lot better a day after opening.

Cheers Con.

Had this Friday night to finish off with coffee.
NV Orlando Show Port Blend No 7007D7 Tawny, based on the 1957 vintage and released in 1982.
Opened the night before and had some VA on the nose.
Unmistakable Tawny, with lots of rancio and the walnut character, rich and sweet on the palate.

Cheers Con.

Looks fantastic Con.

Noticed tonight that a couple of mixed cases at Wickmans went massively above their low estimates. I actually bid on this on Friday, completely forgetting that the price was per bottle, rather than per lot. I hope the winners did not make the same mistake, as there did not seem to be anything special in either lot - I just wanted them so I could get a taste for what styles of wine there are out there. Picked up a few bottles of St Hallet and Yalumba from the 70's instead and saved a fortune.

Croquet King wrote:I was watching some ports at a recent auction that didn't sell and these are the reserve prices.
SALTRAM The Great Australian Series John Flynn Tawny, Barossa Valley 1951 $150.00

Curious as to whether anyone has any experience with these Great Australians fortifieds/sherries. I have the red velvet-lined wooden box with certificate and 4 unopened bottles still in the cellar - a great showpiece but nervous to open any of them!

In my limited experience the pre-50s tawnies have been a mixed bag (not tried any of the great Seppelts though), with the spirit sometimes sticking out from the base wine and adding a degree of harshness. A 1945 Penfolds Grandfather opened about 15 years ago was a case in point. Cool old bottle though, with its hand-typed label...

Should really ping Saltram directly about the Great Australians series I suppose - wonder if they have any current info...

Shared this 1944 Seppelts Para Tawny last Friday.

There was some VA initially which blew off, colour was bright and clear. A lovely old Para to finish the night with. This felt a bit thinner than other Para’s we’ve had with this sort of age on them.

Cheers Con.

Con J wrote:Shared this 1944 Seppelts Para Tawny last Friday.

There was some VA initially which blew off, colour was bright and clear. A lovely old Para to finish the night with. This felt a bit thinner than other Para’s we’ve had with this sort of age on them.

Cheers Con.

It was definately different!

My notes:

Having had a few old Para's from the 1920, 30's and 40's let me start by saying each and everyone has been totally different in their own way.
Yes they are very old, but none were off, and this 1944 epitomises (even back then) different vintages, blends and variations. Although the vintage on the label related (back then) to the oldest component of the blend, and is based around Grenache, Shiraz and Mataro varieties.

I did not pick it at all as a Para, although it did scream SA fortified, and in particular Tawny, I thought it may have been an Orlando or possibly even a Penfolds.

Amber Burnt toffee in colour,very clear though, this was not silky or rich like an old muscat or tokay. This was thinner and medium in body. Clearly very old, but wow its in rude health. Slight bit of VA, but blew off quickly.
The spirit is very clean, almonds and marzipan type notes, however I was surprised at how dry this is. Not table wine dry, but still added an interesting aspect to the wine.
Coffee, Olives, chocolate, toffee, grilled nuts and a good whack of medicinal cherry. That rancio character really is quite prominent still but that length... I think i can still taste it. Sublime

Half bottle here. Not quite what I was expecting. According to the blurb on back this was bottled in 93 from magnum. Sediment removed at the same time and apparently no need to decant in the future. Putting this together it sounds more like a LBV rather than a true vintage.

Tastes fine. Bags of depth and warmth. Figs, raisins, raspberry liqueur, dark fruit. Very long. Lovely and nice to see in this size.

Tintara Reserve Port ?1968? - Presumably Hardy's, label was torn off though so not much info on this. Imperial measure on bottle. Mostly brown but red in the middle. Drinking slightly past its peak but very delicious with chocolate, spice, herbaceousness, and liquorice to close out on the medium long finish. This one was ullaged to slightly below base neck and had to push the cork in. I believe bottles with better fill should be excellent drinking.

This cost $9 at auction I believe - fair enough as I think the description included “kept in a family home”. Started of very dry, with noticeable VA. Stayed a bit austere after a week in the fridge, but this week something has happened. It’s put on weight, there are nice caramel and fig tones and the finish is long and warm with just a touch of bitterness on the end. Drinking it from a Riedel Montrachet glass and it’s really highlighted the good aspects. Fine for the money and given its age - it celebrates the 150th Birthday of WA - it’s a nice drop.

Wow, that's 42 years in bottle. What sort of cork/closure did it have? If cork, what condition was it in?

Screw cap and fill was well into the neck - once a wine reaches a certain age basic factors about the condition of the bottle seem to be more important that the reputation of the name on the label. I can imagine that it stood in a drinks cabinet for most of those 42 years - my mother has a few old bottles of sherry that have stayed there that long. Interesting thing is that its much better in the Monty Glass than in my normal glasses - I normally use the Riedel Rheingau Glass for stickies and port and the wine is more austere in those.

Alex F wrote:Tintara Reserve Port ?1968? - Presumably Hardy's, label was torn off though so not much info on this. Imperial measure on bottle. Mostly brown but red in the middle. Drinking slightly past its peak but very delicious with chocolate, spice, herbaceousness, and liquorice to close out on the medium long finish. This one was ullaged to slightly below base neck and had to push the cork in. I believe bottles with better fill should be excellent drinking.

A day or two in the fridge and it developed into something really complete and delicious... no hesitation in giving this full marks 5/5. Can only imagine how good pristine bottles would be.

a big batch since my last post in September, this is the first part....

1973 Kaiser Stuhl Vintage Port
Shiraz, Barossa Valley. The company no longer exists – corporate shenanigans.
From an average year, the surprise is the longevity. It’s not the most complex wine, but it shows the stylistic sweet, ripe liquorice and blackberry fruit, suggestions of mocha, raisin and camphor, and warming brandy spirit. Drink now

NV Morris CHM Muscat 17.5%
Rutherglen, Victoria
Morris has large stocks of old fortified material, but it’s not solely age that matters – even though the holding cost, maintenance and evaporation are issues – the key is retaining life, vitality, and freshness where judicious blending with younger material is a dark, and underappreciated skill.
The CHM – named for winemaker David Morris’ father, mentor and legend Charles Henry (Mick) Morris – is a cellar-door only wine, pitched at $500 per half bottle. Apparently only 100 half-bottles are released annually (mine was #70), and is described by David Morris as “the best muscat that I can make”. It shows love can triumph over the accountants!
The base wine is from the 1950’s with components back to the 1930’s, and an average age of at least 40 years; if the Rutherglen “rare” classification is around” the 20 year mark – what is the next level? – Antique? Museum? Pinnacle? Icon? And despite more than 300 g/l of residual sugar, the acidity ensures a clean, refreshing wine. – give it some contemplation, let the flavours tantalise, and just smile and nod in appreciation and respect for the style, and the wine.
It’s a dark, dense mahogany colour, sticking to the glass. Floral raisin, mocha, toffee, rose-petal, cardamon and other spices. The very intense palate joins with a cascade of salinity, dried fruits and roasted mixed nuts on a silky, endless finish. The fortifying spirit is seamless.
Like all wines that stick in the memory, it has the magic that insists the bottle size is too small, there just isn’t enough. A true “desert island” wine, it seems cruel to provide a score.
Drink now (if you can firstly find it, and secondly resist the contents

1975 Baileys (Bundarra) Vintage Port
Glenrowan Victoria.This was a canny auction purchase from 2019 with the level at the base of the neck. The cork was meagre, but had performed its duty faithfully over the intervening 45 years!
Still owning a dense bricky colour, the wine was replete with liquorice, mocha and some rose-petal. The palate was sweet but vibrant- iron tonic, blackberry, coffee, milk chocolate and lush mouthfeel. Another tribute to the late Harry Tinson’s winemaking prowess. Old-fashioned, but frighteningly enjoyable. From a very good season, drink to 2030,

1997 Seppelt GR 27 Vintage fortified 19%
Barossa, Shiraz and Tinta molle. Half-bottle with an abbreviated cork and abundant sediment. Decanting essential! Ruby colour with the beginning of some bricking. Rose-petal, sweet spices, sweet dark fruit and liquorice. The palate is soft, with the dark plum, blackberry and figgy fruit, mocha and brandy spirit in mellow harmony with a lingering spicy kick. Drink now, as the structure may outlast the fruit

1976 Orlando Vintage Port 18.3%
This was a very recent speculative $20 auction purchase; a “limited special release”, Barossa Shiraz and Carignan, American oak, brandy spirit.
“Ideal for enjoyment now…potential for further cellaring”. So, an each-way bet, although 45 years cellaring was likely beyond the writer’s imagination. Simpler times then.
The level was low neck., and the cork was stained but intact. There was abundant fine sediment. The high-cropping and well-coloured Carignan turns out to be more widespread in the Barossa than I thought, but its regarded as a second-rate variety confined to blends.
Blood-plum colour with some bricking, the fruit still remains with headsy brandy spirit, and just a gentle touch of mocha. The palate is relatively soft but with a pleasant lick of tannin to finish. Plum and blackberry dominate, with a suggestion of blueberry, but nothing burnt or over-ripe. Sweet, old-fashioned, straightforward, invigorating, and ideal for a winter’s night of contemplation over the embers of the fire. Drink now

Thanks for the note on the Kaiser. My wife and my best drinking buddy are from that vintage and I have a few bottles for 2023.

$500 for 500ml must be a hard sell, but these old Fortifieds are the only wines I would pay that money for now.