The Auswine Forum

rooman wrote:Thanks. The Paulett is another wine I wish I had collected along the way. Re the Pewsey was it the standard or Contours?

Mark

Standard issue!

Polymer wrote:We all end up cellaring because we all like the idea of it...I do too..but it probably isn't as great as we would like to believe it to be...

I've written this a couple of times and have taken out a lot of it but basically, I'm bringing up a counter argument to provoke thought....I'm very certain it won't change any minds or convince anyone not to buy to cellar...and obviously if you have the means and space and you want to buy multiple cases of everything you can get your hands on, more power to you, that's a luxury I think everyone would like but don't have.

But you just have to look at the number of people with:
More wine than they can ever drink in their lifetime
Selling their wine because they have too much
Cases of wine they don't want to drink

And also the comments about buying 1-2 or at most 3 vs cases...or getting over FOMO....or the fact that there will always be another vintage of the century around the corner...or a hot new producer..or your palate may change.....All of those comments are essentially saying don't buy a bunch to cellar...or leading to that same conclusion...

This is a very solid argument. I had tried some brilliant aged wines and was in love with the idea of cellaring and I wanted to have plenty of good aged wines on hand at a later date (despite the fact that there are always good wines being released). I do think the reduction in failure rate inherent in auction purchases is an important factor.

For the first decade, I bought 6-12 wines of many wines I thought would cellar well so that I could have them as they aged. I was very disciplined and didn't have my first of a 6 until I thought they were well into their drinking window as I am hoping to have them when they are fabulous. I recently had my first of six 2010 Turkey Flat Shiraz (it was excellent BTW). Well, I now have way too much wine entering its drinking window.

Compounding this problem is the question of how often I go to the cellar and think - "well I really want an aged wine". Not all the time that's for sure and more often than not, what I want is something that still has plenty of primary flavours - so I select something with 3-5 years bottle age, not 10-15. I also love going to a good bottleshop and picking up something new/interesting/exciting that I will probably drink within a couple of weeks - delaying the requirement for cellared wine even more.

At 1500+ bottles I am getting well over capacity and am trying to limit my regular purchases, hence reducing this year's Noon and Rockford orders from a mixed 12 to a mixed 6. I intend to do that with all other purchases (maybe not Marius.....). I figure if I start buying half as much but keep my drinking levels the same, my cellar will start decreasing rather than increasing in size. And I can increase the average spend on the smaller number!

I guess, while I am not agreeing totally with Phil, have a close and honest look at why you are getting into cellaring wines. The key word is discipline. The sooner you impose it, the less wine will be sitting in your cellar waiting to be drunk. Terrible first world problem!

Mind you I still think I'll get around to drinking most of them eventually....

Cheers

Michael

PS - Find more opportunities to bring out your good/aged wine. I sent a text to a few friends/neighbours a couple of Saturday nights ago and said "hey, I am opening a Rockford Basket Press and a couple of other good wines, come on over!" and three people turned up so I had the excuse to open a couple of other good bottles.

You can also look at the numbers...

3 x 52 = 156 bottles a year.

If you're buying 6 bottles of each to cellar, you have 26 different wines each year. That's really not a lot of producers or different types of wine. If you find that your palate is not changing maybe this is not a bad thing...but I think from an educational point of view about wine, wine regions, etc, it is extremely limiting. You could of course vary things by not buying the same producer every year..or try to cherry pick the "good" vintages..but even the "good" vintages tend to just mean ripe (not always but in AU it tends to mean RIPE) which may or may not be a good thing.

Then you look at the cost...lets just say you use offsite and want an average of 10 years...1560 bottles is 130 cases...which at Kennards Waterloo is 289/month..I'm sure you can find it cheaper but lets say 250/month. That's 3k a year in STORAGE fees only. If you're buying some pretty heavy duty wines, it is probably worth it. But looking at it another way if you cellared far less, lets say you saved 2k a year in storage by not having that many....that's a 2k bottle of wine you could've bought that year...or two 1k bottles...four 500 bottles...each and every year. Again, if that is your norm then this means nothing. If you're storing away a bunch of 30-40 dollar bottles then it makes almost no sense at all given your storage costs nearly equal your spend on wine each year. Of course there is a ramp up to this so the math isn't perfect. I could model it a different way but I can't be bothered...

If you strategically limit your buying and the amount you want to cellar...You can actually find your buying per bottle gets better...what you actually cellar can be of higher quality because you're getting fewer of them. You can supplement getting older wines by the secondary market..but the general point is, you can drink better if you don't get caught up in putting too much away. People think that they'll buy for awhile and stop and all that wine they have they can just drink that for the next 15 years and not have to spend anything (except on storage)...but how many people are doing that? Most people don't actually stop buying because they want to drink/try new things as well...Not to mention as we age, we tend to drink less for health reasons...

Or you could look at it another way and a cellar dug at home with the hole lined with bessa bricks... according to my next door neighbour builder is 40g plus...so you have 12 years of storage covered.
I have 3600 or so at 2g a year in professional storage and yes not a bad rate but will be digging the hole soon.
Cheers
Craig

phillisc wrote:Or you could look at it another way and a cellar dug at home with the hole lined with bessa bricks... according to my next door neighbour builder is 40g plus...so you have 12 years of storage covered.
I have 3600 or so at 2g a year in professional storage and yes not a bad rate but will be digging the hole soon.
Cheers
Craig

You need a plan!

phillisc wrote: will be digging the hole soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDl1i3mpKwM

Polymer wrote:You can also look at the numbers...

3 x 52 = 156 bottles a year.

1) If you're buying 6 bottles of each to cellar, you have 26 different wines each year. That's really not a lot of producers or different types of wine. If you find that your palate is not changing maybe this is not a bad thing...but I think from an educational point of view about wine, wine regions, etc, it is extremely limiting. You could of course vary things by not buying the same producer every year..or try to cherry pick the "good" vintages..but even the "good" vintages tend to just mean ripe (not always but in AU it tends to mean RIPE) which may or may not be a good thing.

2) Then you look at the cost...lets just say you use offsite and want an average of 10 years...1560 bottles is 130 cases...which at Kennards Waterloo is 289/month..I'm sure you can find it cheaper but lets say 250/month. That's 3k a year in STORAGE fees only. If you're buying some pretty heavy duty wines, it is probably worth it. But looking at it another way if you cellared far less, lets say you saved 2k a year in storage by not having that many....that's a 2k bottle of wine you could've bought that year...or two 1k bottles...four 500 bottles...each and every year. Again, if that is your norm then this means nothing. If you're storing away a bunch of 30-40 dollar bottles then it makes almost no sense at all given your storage costs nearly equal your spend on wine each year. Of course there is a ramp up to this so the math isn't perfect. I could model it a different way but I can't be bothered...

Hey Polymer,
I slightly disagree with this logic.
On point 1) how many different wines you can have a year, you assume just steady consumption of 3 bottles per week. This doesn't account for example when you share with friends- even if you limit you own share of consumption to 3 bottles per week (which if we are honest with ourselves for many of us in a couple situation is going to be light) you ignore for example having friends over and opening 4-5 bottles in one go, or contributing a vertical to an offline, etc, etc.

I also doubt many of us have 26 different wines we want to buy 6 of. I think what most are doing is buying 5-10 producers/cuvees consistently in 6s and then the rest a bigger melange of options. (well, that is what I do at least). Which would still provide a lot of optionality.

On point 2) in terms of the cost, you are comparing the maximum annual cost after a number of years with cellaring with a single annual years spend. This doesn't make sense. Your costs will only ramp up over time. If I assume I buy annually to match your annual consumption of 3x52 then I will only have 150 odd bottles in year 1 and the cost will be much cheaper. Of course, if I buy 150 bottles per year at your stated 30-40 price, thats still $5,500 per annum. After 10-yrs when my cellar is now 1500 odd bottles and costing 3K to cellar, the value of that cellar would be close to $55,000 even with an average $35 price... making storage a 5%ish imposition... not unreasonable perhaps?

Of course there is a "lifestyle" price to cellaring wine and of course you can drink SOMETHING and save money if you do not pay your own storage. Auction buys often do not reflect the cost of storage, but you will have absolute failures with auction buys given others poor storage. But its like anything... you could buy NO wine at all and if your budget was the $8K of your hypothetical you could have a nice cruise every year.

Horses for courses ...

Sam-

The numbers are based on a few things:
OP said he drinks about 3 bottles a week.
I used 10 years as a number and I also mentioned there is a ramp so the math isn't perfect...but close enough to give people an idea at full capacity.....obviously year 1 storage is less than year 10..but year 11, 12, 13 is the same..and depending on the capacity of your storage will will gap up here or there...
I'm also using 6 as a number that has been mentioned as far as the number to cellar...if you went to that (or even more extreme) that just gives a person an idea of what they're looking at. Obviously if you buy 3 of every wine that is double the number of cuvees...52..but that still isn't a lot.

And the cellar cost..maybe 5% of the current value...but at 35 a bottle x 156 you're spending 5460 a year in wine and 3000 a year in storage. Does that make sense? If you didn't cellar or cellared fewer bottles your average bottle price could be significantly higher which means you'll likely be drinking better.

If you compare 250 vs 50 for cellaring cost (130 cases vs 12-24) then you're looking at 2400 a year in wine if you didn't buy extra to cellar....So your average bottle price jumps to 50 vs 35...or you can stick w/ the average bottle price of 35 and buy what will likely be far nicer wines with that 2400 than you would've got by cellaring the extras...

Point is, it isn't necessarily better to cellar a bunch of wine..

As I said earlier, if you have your own large passive cellar then this changes things significantly....Or if you've been able to build your own to cut down your storage costs, it will start making more sense to do it as well...

Polymer, if you are paying only 2k a year to cellar 3600 bottles, you have an incredibly good deal... amazing!!!
I wouldn't bother with the hole, hang on to what you have got!!!!

felixp21 wrote:Polymer, if you are paying only 2k a year to cellar 3600 bottles, you have an incredibly good deal... amazing!!!
I wouldn't bother with the hole, hang on to what you have got!!!!

I didn't say that...

I quoted Kennards Waterloo at 279 for 130 cases (you can actually fit more). Guessing that someone could improve on that a bit I said it would be 250 a month....which is 3k a year for storage....on 1560 bottles.

2k is the difference between what you might pay for storage if you only cellared your "extras" vs what you'd cellar if you bought to specifically cellar what you would drink in a year. There are some assumptions there such as you'll buy as much as you will drink in a year (you might buy more or less).

I did look up the next step up in storage space...449/month for up to 600 cases...5388 a year for 7200 bottles.

But either way, you're backing my point...paying for storage is expensive...

I used to get a combination of 3x or 6x of wines to cellar. Mainly focused on specific regions (Burg and Piedmont) which I am aware carries a risk of tastes changing but I am happy to take the risk. I did, however, relocate to the US for work and so the location of my wine storage in Sydney wasn't ideal! However, it did give me a chance to start from scratch and to experience what Polymer is describing and I got to source a load of different wines from various places and vintages. I liked the freedom it gave me and it has changed how I will cellar in the future as I'll want to free up some funds for the experimental drinking that will not involve any cellaring.

brodie wrote:

tuxy85 wrote:I have been collecting/cellaring wine for about 2 years now. As a rookie wine collector I am interested in whether you have any tips on how to build a good collection that I will be able to enjoy in 5, 10, 20 and 30 years time?
I am 33 years of age, so I hopefully have many years to collect and drink what I collect.
Cheers, David

Hi David, I am 60 and starting cellaring wine in 1987. So I have been at for more than 30 years. Here are some thoughts on my journey and what I have learned.

Great insight Brodie, thank you! I've just started getting interested in red wine. I'm sure your advice will make my journey of collecting wines more pleasant!

Polymer wrote:Don't buy to cellar...You'll end up cellaring because your buying will outpace your drinking but I definitely would not be buying in multiples with the intent of cellaring.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You seem to suggest buying without any strategy or selection and that is counter intuitive. How else can one have a Bordeaux or Barolo to drink at a later date? Buying can range from single bottles of premium wines to multiples of two and three as well as cases, however there should be some rhyme or reason to what one buys to put away.

Polymer wrote:How can you have one at a later date? You buy it? Plenty of places you can do that..and honestly, Australia has one of the best auction markets out there...but even beyond that, you can source older wine plenty of places...

Sure, cellaring it yourself means you know for sure it has been taken care of but so what? Yes that's nice..but when you actually look at what that cost you, it isn't an insignificant amount..plus you still carry risk...overall probably even more so.

And I didn't say don't cellar anything..but just purposely buy to cellar very little..you'll no doubt cellar some wine just by virtue of buying wines to drink...

We all end up cellaring because we all like the idea of it...I do too..but it probably isn't as great as we would like to believe it to be...

I've written this a couple of times and have taken out a lot of it but basically, I'm bringing up a counter argument to provoke thought....I'm very certain it won't change any minds or convince anyone not to buy to cellar...and obviously if you have the means and space and you want to buy multiple cases of everything you can get your hands on, more power to you, that's a luxury I think everyone would like but don't have.

But you just have to look at the number of people with:
More wine than they can ever drink in their lifetime
Selling their wine because they have too much
Cases of wine they don't want to drink

And also the comments about buying 1-2 or at most 3 vs cases...or getting over FOMO....or the fact that there will always be another vintage of the century around the corner...or a hot new producer..or your palate may change.....All of those comments are essentially saying don't buy a bunch to cellar...or leading to that same conclusion...

Okay, here goes ...

Polymer wrote: I've written this a couple of times and have taken out a lot of it but basically, I'm bringing up a counter argument to provoke thought...

Fair enough. I’ve given this some thought and in all fairness cannot agree.

Polymer wrote: How can you have one at a later date? You buy it? Plenty of places you can do that..and honestly, Australia has one of the best auction markets out there...but even beyond that, you can source older wine plenty of places...

There is nothing wrong with buying at auction or finding stray bottles on store shelves. However if one were to restrict oneself to these sources for older and mature wines one would end up drinking only a narrow range of wines. A great many wines don’t end up at auction and very few as dusty strays on store shelves. By relying on the auction market you are deferring your de-facto cellaring decisions first and foremost to other collectors, and secondly to chance encounters. This may be fine for the casual drinker but not a strategy for a dedicated wine enthusiast.

A wine enthusiast will spend time acquiring knowledge through books, magazines, and now more than ever, wine forums. The knowledge and recommendations acquired will arouse curiosity to try a diversity of wines and to consider drinking older wines. The problem is that many recommendations, especially those that are inexpensive and cellar-worthy, will not be available five, ten and twenty years down the line. So what happens to that big Beaujolais that is supposed to be good in a decade, or that Greek wine, or Barbera, or Chianti, or Cotes du Rhone? They will have been bought and drunk if no thought is given to putting away a few bottles. In Australia there are any number of wineries experimenting with new varieties. They may never end up at auction.

One of the reasons to have a cellar of diverse wines is the ability to pick and choose wines to suit the occasion or the meal that will be served. Recently a friend of mine casually mentioned that he had never had an old Greek and I was able to make a mental note to serve one to him sometime soon. The next time I went through my wines I pulled out a 1993 Boutari Naoussa Reserva. The reason I cellared it many years ago was because a wine magazine listed it as their top Greek wine of the year. The tasting note exclaimed “Who snuck a Barolo into the Greek tasting?” They said that the Xinomavro grape can be a Nebbiolo look-alike and that a decade of cellaring would do wonders. It was less than $15 and when I tasted it I thought it was on the lighter side, but the rose-scented, tannic, sharp profile matched what the tasting panel described. I knew that they knew more about Xinomavro than I did and the only way I would ever know that they were right would be to cellar a few bottles. Fifteen years later I opened a bottle and found it had picked up weight and was glorious. Now I will serve my friend the other bottle. If I hadn’t cellared the wine and only continued buying the same wine would be to learn a thing or two about vintage variation and winemaking styles, not about how the grape ages.

If you are a wine enthusiast and want to drink older wines that are not merely trophy wines, deemed collectibles, and discards, you own it to yourself to select the wines you want to cellar, whether expensive or not.

Polymer wrote: Sure, cellaring it yourself means you know for sure it has been taken care of but so what? Yes that's nice..but when you actually look at what that cost you, it isn't an insignificant amount..plus you still carry risk...overall probably even more so.

Provenance of older wines is THE most important thing you need to know about any old wine. Without knowing if the wine was properly cellared one will never have a clear idea of how the wine was supposed to have developed. If it turns out good, it may have been better, if it seems passable or ordinary it may have been poorly stores. Buying at auction or a long forgotten dusty bottle from a store is the higher risk. Choosing the wine you wish to cellar is a risk only if you don’t have a good place to cellar them.

Polymer wrote: And I didn't say don't cellar anything..but just purposely buy to cellar very little..you'll no doubt cellar some wine just by virtue of buying wines to drink...

Most wine enthusiasts know the difference between early drinking wines and tannic, structured wines meant to cellar. If you only buy wines for everyday drinking then in future you will have little or no wines of any interest as the short-term wines fall off the cliff. If on the other hand you are a person who likes to drink tannic wines meant for cellaring in their youth then maybe cellaring is not for you. But that is a whole other story.

Polymer wrote: We all end up cellaring because we all like the idea of it...I do too..but it probably isn't as great as we would like to believe it to be...

I cellar wines not because I “like the idea of it” but because mature wines of high quality taste good. We know this because of what we read in books and journals. Those starting out now should take this to heart. A long time ago I knew Australian wines could age not because I had any but because I read Halliday’s seminal book on Australian wines where he mentioned some of the older wines he had tasted over the years. Of course I could not procure the wines Halliday mentioned but it didn’t mean I couldn’t make my own decisions. I happened to see a feature on new Australian wineries in the Wine Spectator and read about Dominique Portet and his new Victorian vineyard called Taltarni (which also had a picture of him with holding up a snake on a stick). They said he made hard, tannic cabernets. His first vintage was 1977. When I saw the ’81 and ’82 vintage here in Canada I knew I had to buy some. I cannot imagine coming across these vintages once they were sold out.

I think cellaring is one of the most important think for a wine enthusiast who is not in the trade. People in the trade are likely to be served plenty of old and rare wines. The late Andre Tchelistcheff of Beaulieu Vineyards, the winemaker of the famous George de Latour Cabernets, in an interview late in life told the interviewer that he had no cellar, only a few special bottles that he stored under his bed. He said he was privileged during his career to have been been served many old and special wines and therefore had no need to cellar wines. When asked what kind of wines he had under his bed and whether he had any of the iconic reserve cabernets he was famous for, he said they were mostly pinots.

Polymer wrote: I'm very certain it won't change any minds or convince anyone not to buy to cellar...and obviously if you have the means and space and you want to buy multiple cases of everything you can get your hands on, more power to you, that's a luxury I think everyone would like but don't have.

Obviously not everyone has the same amount of money at their disposal but it is equally true that there is no need to buy multiple cases of any given wine. In fact this facet of your advice is something I agree with, to not buy cases of a wine and in every vintage. It is the first misstep in developing dull and one-dimensional cellar. Until recently I had only ever bought a single case of wine, the rest were in ones, twos, and threes, depending on the price. One never has to buy the top wines or many bottles and vintages. There are plenty of delightful wines that will reward cellaring. Often it is easier to open and enjoy the more modest wines as they will be at their apogee earlier on. My solitary 1983 Grange has a window that continues to move forward, apparently the drinking window is now 2023-2033. Meanwhile critics seem to think that the 1982 Leoville Las Cases, my only Robert Parker 100 point wine, is still surly and unyielding.

Polymer wrote: But you just have to look at the number of people with:
More wine than they can ever drink in their lifetime
Selling their wine because they have too much
Cases of wine they don't want to drink

These are not the result of cellaring wines, rather of buying and cellaring far too many wines and then having to resort to selling. The fact that they have cases of wines they don’t want to drink is because they did not diversify their cellar. In the same way obesity is not caused by people who feel they want to eat but rather by eating the wrong things and far too much.

Again, I emphasize, buy widely and moderately.

Polymer wrote: And also the comments about buying 1-2 or at most 3 vs cases...or getting over FOMO....or the fact that there will always be another vintage of the century around the corner...or a hot new producer..or your palate may change.....All of those comments are essentially saying don't buy a bunch to cellar...or leading to that same conclusion...

Same thing as above, don’t buy cases of the same wine and in every vintage. I’m not sure palates “change” so much as they either get bored of drinking the same style of wine or discover other styles they want to drink. Often our diets change and we want wines to match the cuisine. So for example if you start off drinking bold shiraz with barbecues and steaks it doesn’t mean you will forever hold to that diet. Buy widely so that when you eat more poultry and seafood, or perhaps Italianate and French cuisine, you will have cellared wine to match.

My advice is to read what Brodie had to say about cellaring. He’s bang on. The only difference is that living in Canada I never did an Aussie-centric cellar.

Cheers .............. Mahmoud.

I think you're not really understanding what I'm saying..

You can pick stuff up at auction, you can also find very reliable sources for older wine...Even hard core collectors and buyers of wine will find wine this way. With good provenance what are your concerns? Either way you don't have any guarantees the wine will be great...but I'm just as happy to have bought a wine stored in a perfect passive cellar in Italy or France than I am from one that's been professionally stored in an offsite location...Does auction carry a bit more risk? Sure...but very high end buyers and enthusiasts will often resort to auction...obviously other sources are better but your comment about only being for casual drinkers is factually untrue.

I'm also not suggesting not to cellar any wine...I'm saying, for the most part, not to buy to cellar. I've said of course there are the bottle here or there you might want to cellar...but your buying isn't, at its core, to cellar your wine. Even though I've specifically said there might be wines you want to cellar you're taking this as black and white..and it isn't. Once you understand that you'll see some of your responses below don't make sense because you've taken what I've said incorrectly.

Cellaring wine is NOT the most thing for a wine enthusiasts not in the trade....in fact I'd put it way down on the list...obviously this is just opinion...but if your plan is to just to drink older wines you've cellared you're giving up YEARS of wonderful experiences plus there are tons of examples of older wines you could have tried if you didn't limit yourself. So if you've taken the dive to try other wines bought on the secondary market, you're opening up a whole world of stuff. And if you've taken that dive then it isn't a stretch to lean further on the secondary market for aged wines. Again, this doesn't mean you won't cellar anything but if you feel your only source of aged wine is your own cellaring, you're just severely limiting yourself. Yes this means it might be very difficult to find some wines...of course. It might mean you don't have access to certain wines..but there is so much stuff out there there are plenty of fantastic options. Your Xinomavro example....Go out and buy an older one. Honestly, buying a wine like that hoping it will turn out ok in 15 years without any information on it, is a poor gamble...Sure, wonderful experiences can be had by doing that..but there are so many better ways to go about this than that nowadays with the Internet. And if you're willing to take random punts on anything that seems like it might age and do it a few at a time, that's where your storage gets out of hand...Your way might've been the only way pre-Internet..that isn't the case anymore. I'm not even saying doing this here and there is bad but the idea that you have to do it or do it regularly is the only way to learn and find out, that's just not true...

Good cellaring doesn't guarantee anything and your suggestion there isn't risk if you cellar properly is not true. You don't know that your bottle you've cellared perfectly will be any good at all. You have absolutely no idea if it is corked, the cork is compromised and you've allowed it to oxidize ..you have no idea how that will will evolve...You can have a certain hope of something but you have no real idea what it will do. You said you've cellar AU wine because you read it would turn out great...so how are those wines that you bought in the Parker era aging for you? Probably not nearly as well as some of the older classics you were reading about...You carry all of those risks yourself AND the cost of having stored it. There are no guarantees it'll turn out fantastic. I know you know all that but you haven't considered it when talking about it.

All of what you've said sounds like a very old strategy....20 years ago this was all probably true..you didn't have information so easily accessible..access to vendors, auctions, etc...it was much harder if not impossible to source old bottles of wine and the only way you'd get any real experience was to do it yourself..the only way you'd get a reliable older bottle of wine was yourself...That's definitely not the case anymore...

One thing I haven't put into this is....As wine enthusiasts there is some fun in having a lot of bottles....and we often laugh about having too many bottles because even though we all know it probably isn't an optimal strategy, we like that we have a bunch of wine...we also all talk about buying less but don't do it. So that enjoyment of having bottles is hard to put a number on....but ultimately we all know that leaving this world having a bunch of stuff in our cellar isn't the best way to do it - we justify it by saying we'd leave it to our kids but really it is a sub-optimal plan.

So Mahmoud - you live in Canada so you probably have a passive cellar with space so you don't have this concern (and why I've repeatedly said, if your storage costs are very low it changes the discussion)...but if you had to pay 3k a year in storage costs to cellar 15-30 dollar bottles...or lets say had to pay an extra 2k a year in storage costs vs if you didn't have as many bottles...Do you think you get more out of having stored those bottles or spending that extra 2k (each year) on other wine you might not normally be able to get? Whether that means buying some very old bottles of great wine or just high end wines you might not normally buy? Keep in mind you still have storage and you have still cellared some special bottles..but the more ordinary wines that were cellared would be what you'd be giving up.

I hear what you're saying to a degree polymer. I was rocking a 110 bottle vintec and a cupboard space at one point. I was only looking at cellaring a select (by cellaring I mean more than say 10 years) number of bottles because of my storage situ.
Then I found the cellar....

Suddenly my storage parameters have gone beyond what I thought I would ever have.
Now I find I'm squirreling wine away like some sort of doomsday prepper. At first it was carefully racking bottles. Now the racks are filling up I've resorted to just stacking cartons on top of each other and pushing them to the back of the cellar. The odd offline and vendor tasting of some nice aged stuff has me rubbing my hands together like some sort of 70's bond villain knowing I can collect it and park it forever.
IN a sense it's possible (and my wife is absolutely certain of this) that I've lost my collection bearings to a degree.
I think my utlimate advice is we must all learn to cellar 'smart', not just cellar and hoard blindly because we can.

Scotty vino wrote:I hear what you're saying to a degree polymer. I was rocking a 110 bottle vintec and a cupboard space at one point. I was only looking at cellaring a select (by cellaring I mean more than say 10 years) number of bottles because of my storage situ.
Then I found the cellar....

Suddenly my storage parameters have gone beyond what I thought I would ever have.
Now I find I'm squirreling wine away like some sort of doomsday prepper. At first it was carefully racking bottles. Now the racks are filling up I've resorted to just stacking cartons on top of each other and pushing them to the back of the cellar. The odd offline and vendor tasting of some nice aged stuff has me rubbing my hands together like some sort of 70's bond villain knowing I can collect it and park it forever.
IN a sense it's possible (and my wife is absolutely certain of this) that I've lost my collection bearings to a degree.
I think my utlimate advice is we must all learn to cellar 'smart', not just cellar and hoard blindly because we can.

This is GOLD , describes me to a tea. I too have the Vintec with my 'special' bottles and also what started out a small collection in dedicated cellar area in my house, this is starting to swell...the last few months I have restrained (better term abstained) from buying. Some of the advice on here has made me reconsider my cellar goals to learn to cellar a bit wiser.

With apologies, some weekend reading.

Polymer wrote:I think you're not really understanding what I'm saying..

I do, I really do understand what you’re saying, but I do think it may be the other way around.

Polymer wrote: You can pick stuff up at auction, you can also find very reliable sources for older wine...Even hard core collectors and buyers of wine will find wine this way. With good provenance what are your concerns? Either way you don't have any guarantees the wine will be great...but I'm just as happy to have bought a wine stored in a perfect passive cellar in Italy or France than I am from one that's been professionally stored in an offsite location...Does auction carry a bit more risk? Sure...but very high end buyers and enthusiasts will often resort to auction...obviously other sources are better but your comment about only being for casual drinkers is factually untrue.

Of course you can pick up things at auction, I never said that one couldn’t. I thought it was pretty clear that the main thrust of my argument was about cellaring as a long term strategy for a wine enthusiast who wants a broad range of wines as well less fancied wines that are not usually found at auction. I have no problem with people buying at auctions. All I’m saying is that if you can properly cellar wines then it is better and more reliable that buying at auction where you have to trust the provenance and have them delivered to your home. Remember we’re talking about advice to a person living in Brisbane, not Europe. Perhaps I was a bit unclear about what I meant when I said casual drinker. I agree that high end buyers and enthusiasts do buy at auction but I was referring to the person who hasn’t a cellar and who occasionally buys at auction when they want to drink older wines. That is what I meant by casual, nothing more. In fact if I was living in Europe I probably would keep an eye on auctions for the occasional buy.

Polymer wrote: I'm also not suggesting not to cellar any wine...I'm saying, for the most part, not to buy to cellar. I've said of course there are the bottle here or there you might want to cellar...but your buying isn't, at its core, to cellar your wine. Even though I've specifically said there might be wines you want to cellar you're taking this as black and white..and it isn't. Once you understand that you'll see some of your responses below don't make sense because you've taken what I've said incorrectly.

I understand the distinction, you were very clear about it. However I cannot agree with the strategy. People who want to drink mature wines should cellar wine, and for these people they are deliberate about it and indeed are buying in order to cellar. They buy wine that they want to drink in the future, wines that are meant to age or that they think will age. They deliberately refrain from drinking them till they think they have reached maturity. Of course wines bought to be drunk early may sometimes end up being cellared. The original poster understood this distinction because he said he spends less on his drinking wines than he does on his cellaring wines.

Polymer wrote: Cellaring wine is NOT the most thing for a wine enthusiasts not in the trade....in fact I'd put it way down on the list...obviously this is just opinion...

If you are a wine enthusiast and like to drink a variety of wines, including cellared wine, and can afford it, then it is almost incumbent on you to cellar some wines. Obviously I’m not talking about people who cannot afford one, nor am I suggesting that one buy copious amounts. I also understand that in order to get wines not available in the local market or to backfill one may have to go to auction. However any wine that you taste, or one that you think you want to drink down the road, it is best you buy and cellar it rather than rely on the secondary market because often it won’t be available, is much more expensive, or the providence might be dodgy.

Polymer wrote: ... but if your plan is to just to drink older wines you've cellared you're giving up YEARS of wonderful experiences plus there are tons of examples of older wines you could have tried if you didn't limit yourself.

I’m sorry Polymer but that is a silly thing to say. Who here has said anything about not drinking wine? Wine collectors and enthusiasts are always drinking wines, they don’t “limit” themselves just because they are cellaring wine. They’re just buying more than they drink. I’m sure most enthusiasts try a lot of different wines and continue to do so as their cellar grows. In addition to myself many posters here have advised people starting out to diversify their collection. Anyone who does that likely does not have to go to the auction market to discover wines.

Polymer wrote: So if you've taken the dive to try other wines bought on the secondary market, you're opening up a whole world of stuff. And if you've taken that dive then it isn't a stretch to lean further on the secondary market for aged wines. Again, this doesn't mean you won't cellar anything but if you feel your only source of aged wine is your own cellaring, you're just severely limiting yourself. Yes this means it might be very difficult to find some wines...of course. It might mean you don't have access to certain wines..but there is so much stuff out there there are plenty of fantastic options.

If a person is just starting out on his or her wine journey it is perfectly fine to buy older wines from the secondary market.That's because the person is just starting and it is a good way to taste older wines. Assuming they like older wines and will continue to want to drink them then they should buy those very wines at retail. If they don't like older wiones then the answer is simple: don't cellar and there won't be any need to even buy at auction. Lets be clear, I never said that ones own cellar is the ONLY source of aged wines. Cellaring your own wines when you have the opportunity to do is a good idea. When you see the wine you want on the shelf then that is the best time to buy it. As you so said “there is so much stuff out there there are plenty of fantastic options”. Exactly! When you have a diverse cellar you already have fantastic options and you will rarely have to buy at auction. I’m at the point where I rarely have to buy any wines because I have a whole world of wine in my cellar. I don’t need to buy another Chianti Riserva, or another Rioja, or another Bordeaux, or another Aussie wine, whether Shiraz, Cab, Petit Vedot, GSM, Mourvedre, Marsanne, Viognier, Riesling. The world of wine is in my cellar and I bought them when I came across them, some which I tasted and some that I couldn’t because I cannot drink everything. When I was buying some of my 1989 Bordeaux I tasted one or two but there was no need to taste them all before cellaring.

Polymer wrote: Your Xinomavro example....Go out and buy an older one. Honestly, buying a wine like that hoping it will turn out ok in 15 years without any information on it, is a poor gamble...Sure, wonderful experiences can be had by doing that..but there are so many better ways to go about this than that nowadays with the Internet.

Even in Canada where we get wines from all over the world it would be well neigh impossible to get ahold of a 15 year old Greek Xinomavro. Also, when you say “buying a wine like that hoping it will turn out ok in 15 years without any information on it, is a poor gamble” you clearly did you not read what I wrote. No need to scroll back, this is what I said: “The reason I cellared it many years ago was because a wine magazine listed it as their top Greek wine of the year” and that the tasting panel said “the Xinomavro grape can be a Nebbiolo look-alike and that a decade of cellaring would do wonders.”. I saw an opportunity, took it, put away a few bottles, and was rewarded with a really fine bottle of wine. Sure it was a “gamble” as you so quaintly put it but it was based on knowledgable advice.

Polymer wrote: And if you're willing to take random punts on anything that seems like it might age and do it a few at a time, that's where your storage gets out of hand...Your way might've been the only way pre-Internet..that isn't the case anymore. I'm not even saying doing this here and there is bad but the idea that you have to do it or do it regularly is the only way to learn and find out, that's just not true...

My goodness, what is the word for someone who is the opposite of a Luddite? This may come as a surprise to you but people were informed before the internet and this also applies to the world of wine. There were plenty of books and magazines dedicated to wine long before the internet. The first wine book I owned was Hugh Johnson’s ‘Modern Encyclopedia of Wine’ and it was crammed full of information about wine regions, wine varieties as well a producers. My volume was a second edition, published in 1987, and for the benefit of Australian posters this is what he said about Australian wines:

“Even more of a surprise is how excellent the best Australian wines are: different in flavour from California’s best but not a jot inferior, and presenting a wider range of types. In Australia Shiraz, Semillon, and Rhine Riesling have been excellently grown for decades. A new generation of first-class Cabernet and Chardonnay has now joined them - while California’s very best wines are limited to Cabernet, Chardonnay, Riesling and arguably Sauvignon Blanc. In both cases Pinot Noir is still only on the threshold of success, but Australia, with new cool vineyards, probably has the edge.”

That was in 1987. Anybody reading this would have a perfectly good reason to cellar Australian wines. I did, in dribs and drabs, whenever I came across what I considered a good producer. Here are brief excerpts from what he said about some wineries:

Bailey’s - The famous makers of heroic Bundarra Hermitage, a caricature Aussie wine with a black and red label like a danger signal. A thickly fruity wine which ages 20 years to improbable subtlety.
Best’s Concongella - Pinot Meunier is also very long lived. (a bottle was gifted to me at cellar door by Viv Thomson)
Chateau Tahbilk (the old name) - Victoria’s most historic and attractive winery and one of Australia’s best ... A ’64 Cabernet was perfection in 1982.
Mount Mary - His 1980 ‘Cabernets’ blend ... is like a classic Bordeaux ... (I never did see it in Canada)
Sevenhill - An old Jesuit holding with its church and winery, principally making altar wine for many other Jesuit churches throughout Australia ... They make a very good vintage port ... (Having tasted the VP at cellar door I can vouch for that)
Wendouree - The late owner, Roly Birks, was one of the great conservative Aussie wine makers who made massive reds largely used for blending by other wineries. The style is maintained by the new owner, especially in his Cabernet/Malbec/Shiraz; deep, dark, oak scented. (I’ve known of Wendouree for years, long before the internet)

To say that in pre-internet days one had to take “random punts” is complete and utter balderdash. Sorry, but that the truth. There was plenty of information out there from a whole host of writers and critics and the many wine magazines as well. I’m glad that you agree that putting away wine isn’t a bad idea. Whether a person wants to do it “here and there” or on a more determined basis is up to them. It isn’t the ONLY way to learn about wine but it certainly helps and is rewarding.

Polymer wrote: Good cellaring doesn't guarantee anything and your suggestion there isn't risk if you cellar properly is not true. You don't know that your bottle you've cellared perfectly will be any good at all. You have absolutely no idea if it is corked, the cork is compromised and you've allowed it to oxidize ..you have no idea how that will will evolve...You can have a certain hope of something but you have no real idea what it will do.

Good cellaring guarantees good provenance, the one thing you want to be sure of when you open an older wine. That a wine may be corked is not germane to the discussion at hand because the same wine at auction may also be corked. The risks are the same. However the provenance from your own cellar reduces the overall risk. If you buy wines from a good producer with a track record you will have a good idea about how it will evolve.

Polymer wrote: You said you've cellar AU wine because you read it would turn out great...so how are those wines that you bought in the Parker era aging for you? Probably not nearly as well as some of the older classics you were reading about...

How did Mr Parker enter enter the discussion. Do you think that prior to the internet he was the only wine writer? I've cellared all sorts of wines, Australian included, based on all the information available, not just Mr Parker. The wines I cellared were the old classics, Tahbilk, Baileys, Lindeman, Taltarni, Arrowfield, Balgownie. They fared very well thank you very much, my last bottle of '75 Lindeman Auburn Burgundy at 25 years of age (the cork was completly soft and spongy and just starting to leak) was the second best Australian red I've had after the '82 Penfold's Bin 820 that a mate served. The Lindeman's cost me about $10 and likely would not be available at auction. I don't know how much the Penfold's cost but you'll be pleased to know it was bought at auction. The '90 Balgownie Chardonnay was superb, and something like 18 years old.

Polymer wrote: You carry all of those risks yourself AND the cost of having stored it. There are no guarantees it'll turn out fantastic. I know you know all that but you haven't considered it when talking about it.

I’m only too happy to bear the costs and risks of cellaring my wine. Of course there are no guarantees, do you think those of us who cellar wines are fools? When you buy a steak at the shops are you sure it will be tender? A better cut from a reputable butcher will increase your odds wouldn't you say. It's the same with cellaring wine, the better wines from reputable producers will usually produce better results. If you want a guarantee buy a washing machine or a television set.

Polymer wrote:All of what you've said sounds like a very old strategy....20 years ago this was all probably true..you didn't have information so easily accessible..access to vendors, auctions, etc...it was much harder if not impossible to source old bottles of wine and the only way you'd get any real experience was to do it yourself..the only way you'd get a reliable older bottle of wine was yourself...That's definitely not the case anymore...

I humbly disagree. The strategy for cellaring wine is the same today as it was twenty years ago. The only difference is that there may be new and different producers as well as the rise and fall of winery reputations. This seems especially true in Australia with so many new wineries. You are also very far off-base with regards to wine information available to wine enthusiasts in the past. I suppose you imagine people in the past wandering about in a daze of confusion and ignorance.

- "Looky here Jim-bob, this is a Bord-oh wine."
- "What's that?"
- "I dunno, the clerk fella in the store said I should put it my basement."
- "Why?"
- "Cuz he said it would get better."
- "You sure you wanna do that?"
- "What else can I do man, they ain't invented the internet."

When I started cellaring in the late 80's the government controlled wine store had all sorts old shit. We could get Bordeaux and Burgundies back to the 60's, Riojas and German Rieslings from the 70's as well as verticals of Chateau Musar, the Lebanese wine. By the way, the owner and winemaker of Chateau Musar, Gaston Hochar, was Decanter Magazine's very first Man of the Year in 1984, the accolade following a spectacular showing at a UK wine fair where it was judged the best wine of the show. My friends and I were able to taste a number of these wines, including the '61 Chateau L'Arrosee which was the very last bottle in the store. It remains the best wine I've ever had. The oldest Riojas, German Rielings, and Chiantis in my cellar are from that store. Had I not bought them it would be very difficult to find them now. Like I said, if you see something that you want to drink in the future, and can afford it, then buy it.

Polymer wrote: One thing I haven't put into this is....As wine enthusiasts there is some fun in having a lot of bottles....and we often laugh about having too many bottles because even though we all know it probably isn't an optimal strategy, we like that we have a bunch of wine...we also all talk about buying less but don't do it. So that enjoyment of having bottles is hard to put a number on....but ultimately we all know that leaving this world having a bunch of stuff in our cellar isn't the best way to do it - we justify it by saying we'd leave it to our kids but really it is a sub-optimal plan.

Of course there is fun in having a lot of bottles. That way we have wines for any occasion without having to go hunting in auctions or scanning store shelves. If anybody has too many bottles all that it means is they bought too many, and nobody here is suggesting that. If anyone is looking at it in black and white terms it is you Polymer. You are making a stark choice between not cellaring and having too many bottles.

Polymer wrote: So Mahmoud - you live in Canada so you probably have a passive cellar with space so you don't have this concern (and why I've repeatedly said, if your storage costs are very low it changes the discussion)...but if you had to pay 3k a year in storage costs to cellar 15-30 dollar bottles...or lets say had to pay an extra 2k a year in storage costs vs if you didn't have as many bottles...Do you think you get more out of having stored those bottles or spending that extra 2k (each year) on other wine you might not normally be able to get? Whether that means buying some very old bottles of great wine or just high end wines you might not normally buy? Keep in mind you still have storage and you have still cellared some special bottles..but the more ordinary wines that were cellared would be what you'd be giving up.

It doesn’t matter if I live in Canada or not, the advice is the same. The calculations are not important because if a person cannot afford to cellar wines they shouldn’t, plain and simple. I have been discussing the advantages of cellaring wines instead of relying solely on auctions for cellared wines.

To recap:

- It is alway preferable to buy the type of wines you want and cellar them when they are first released,
- Diversify, diversify, diversify, as has been mentioned already,
- There is no need to only buy expensive, trophy wines,
- There is also no need to buy in large quantities and in multiple vintages,
- Buying two or three will suffice, even a single bottle if something special or expensive that you are keen to have.
- Use auctions to buy wines you don’t have or more of what you like.
- Buy back vintages if you see them on the shelf, it's always fun because it feels like a leg up on the cellaring,
- Only you can decide what constitutes too much wine, but remember, there will always be more wines and better vintages, and finally
- If you cannot afford to cellar wines don't do it.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: I still think Brodie's advice is the one to follow. Read it again I say.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: If anyone is looking at it in black and white terms it is you Polymer. You are making a stark choice between not cellaring and having too many bottles.

Proof you don't understand what I'm saying. I've specifically said that isn't what I'm saying and provided examples now in more than one post. I'm comparing very selective cellaring combined with not buying to cellar (buying multiples to pack away) vs. buying to cellar...and comparing the storage costs vs. benefits.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: It doesn’t matter if I live in Canada or not, the advice is the same. The calculations are not important because if a person cannot afford to cellar wines they shouldn’t, plain and simple. I have been discussing the advantages of cellaring wines instead of relying solely on auctions for cellared wines.

And you didn't answer the question.

It isn't a matter of being able to afford to...obviously if someone is spending 3k a year on cellaring, they indeed can afford to. The question is whether they should.

So assuming the difference between buying to cellar and not buying to cellar but still cellaring some is 2k...Would you rather be cellaring those 15-30 dollar bottles over the course of 10 years...or have an extra 2k to spend on wine each year plus the selective cellaring of a few bottles here and there plus the random ones that have been cellared "naturally". There isn't a right or wrong answer to this question but it is asked to put a perspective on things.

I thought I would never say this...little old me who scrimps and scrapes, but,
2 grand for storage is actually not a huge sum of money, when you look at what 2 grand would buy you at auction chasing 10-20 year old wines.
Or two grand is 6 cases of wine a year at $30 a bottle and round these parts $30 a bottle seems very very cheap

Where the problem for me lies is stumping up 15 years storage cost in one go...could sell a significant part of the collection to fund it, but actually had a thought that I would like to drink a few of those, so I guess it will be go into debt a bit further.

Cheers Craig

Thank you all for the interesting discussion, particularly in regards to costs, consumption and cellaring.

Consumption
I would estimate that my current costs are as follows:
2 bottles per week would be an average of $18-25 per bottle.
Once per week, normally on a Saturday night I bring out something a bit nicer - normally $25 to $40 per bottle.

Generally I drink nicer wine when its just my wife and I, although on special occasions I'll produce something nicer for very close friends and family. Maybe once or twice a year my wife and I will share a bottle that is $100+ at this stage they are bottles such as the bottle of Domaine A Cabernet that we had on my birthday recently.

However on average I would say that we consume about $75 worth of wine per week or $3900 per year as general consumption + special occasions and the odd dinner party.

Collecting and cellaring
According to cellar tracker since, starting my collection about 2 years ago, my collection in storage has grown to 93 bottles. Cellar tracker has these bottles valued at about $6500. So on average I have collected about $3000 worth of wine per year. However suspect that will be halved given the birth of my first child and my wife being temporarily out of the workforce. In the last 6 months I have only added 6 bottles to the collection with another 6 to be added this month. My storage costs me $17 per month.

In the future I think the key will be to find better value in the wine that I collect rather than going for all of the big name/icon labels .... a trap that I suspect many rookie wine collectors fall into.

Polymer wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:If anyone is looking at it in black and white terms it is you Polymer. You are making a stark choice between not cellaring and having too many bottles.

Polymer wrote: Proof you don't understand what I'm saying. I've specifically said that isn't what I'm saying and provided examples now in more than one post.

I beg to differ. The entire thrust of your argument is that cellaring isn’t necessary and that old wines can be sourced from auction houses. Second, that cellaring leads to having too many bottles and that it is not an optimal strategy.

Polymer wrote:I'm comparing very selective cellaring combined with not buying to cellar (buying multiples to pack away) vs. buying to cellar...and comparing the storage costs vs. benefits.

What pray tell is the difference between “very selective cellaring” and “buying to cellar”? You seem to be suggesting that people who buy wines to cellar are madcap spendthrifts who buy indiscriminately everything they come across by the caseload and in every vintage. Believe me, that is not what is is being suggested here. The advice has been to be very selective, to buy a diversity of regions and styles, and in smaller multiples.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:It doesn’t matter if I live in Canada or not, the advice is the same. The calculations are not important because if a person cannot afford to cellar wines they shouldn’t, plain and simple. I have been discussing the advantages of cellaring wines instead of relying solely on auctions for cellared wines.

Polymer wrote: And you didn't answer the question.

It isn't a matter of being able to afford to...obviously if someone is spending 3k a year on cellaring, they indeed can afford to. The question is whether they should.

I did answer the question. If they want to have a cellar, and if they can afford it, they should. Simple, full stop.

Polymer wrote:So assuming the difference between buying to cellar and not buying to cellar but still cellaring some is 2k...Would you rather be cellaring those 15-30 dollar bottles over the course of 10 years...or have an extra 2k to spend on wine each year plus the selective cellaring of a few bottles here and there plus the random ones that have been cellared "naturally". There isn't a right or wrong answer to this question but it is asked to put a perspective on things.

This is a really muddled exercise. Apparently there is such a thing as “cellaring”, “selective cellaring”, and “natural cellaring”. I am at a loss to understand these differences. I am interested in mature wines and this interest makes it natural that I would cellar wines and be selective in what I cellar. Therefore I suppose I do all three whatever they’re supposed to mean.

If you had been paying attention, you would already know that I would choose my cellared wines instead of the discretionary money, since many if not most of what I have would be either unavailable or unaffordable.

Ta ................ Mahmoud.

PS: You said that "cellaring wines" are in the $15-30 range. But what of the "selectively cellared" and "naturally" cellared wines? In which category are the $30-50 wines and the $50-$100 wines?

Buying to cellar, as I've stated (but I can understand it is a bit confusing)...is when you're buying multiple bottles of many different wines because you want to cellar them....I'm not distinguishing between drink now and drink later type wines because most wines can still be drunk very young..and many wines that aren't necessarily made to be super structured can still cellar. Thanks for confirming you didn't understand what I'm saying...Not blaming you but it was obvious you didn't...

Selective cellaring is picking out a wine here or there because you want to cellar that specific wine as it is made to go long term, it might be a special bottle, etc, etc..It generally consists of buying 1 but doesn't have to be...I could reword this to say don't cellar too much wine but I wanted to be more specific.

So to give you an example of what this might look like as far as buying each year. Doesn't have to be these exact wines..

Selective Cellaring:
1 x Penfolds Grange
1 x Vogue Musigny
1 x Bartolo Mascarello Barolo
1 x Leoville Las Cases
1 x Yquem
1 x Sassicaia
1 x Tyrrells Vat 1
1 x Rockford BP
1 x Wynns JR
1 x JJ Prum WS Spatlese

vs.
6 x Rockford BP
6 x Marius Symposium
6 x JJ Prum WS Spatlese
6 x Tyrrells Vat 47
6 x Grosset Polish Hill
6 x Amirault Petit Cave
6 x Giant Steps Pinot
6 x Wynns Black
6 x Chave St. Joseph
6 x Noble One

In both cases you have wines that will age...all age reasonably well based off of history. You might even have more than 1 in the case of selective cellaring because maybe you have 1 to drink now, 1 to cellar. Either way, you also have multiple vintages...so in the selective one, you might have multiple vintages but not every vintage (replace one wine with another). The one below you very likely have multiple vintages as well...

So in case 1, flash forward 10 years you have a small mix of wines that have been cellared. You've also bought via auction and other reliable secondary market opportunities. You've been drinking mature wines throughout that process because you're not relying on cellaring your own wine....You have a cellar but you don't have a huge cellar because you've spent more money buying different wines and drinking them without the intention of cellaring them...(although some have no doubt been cellared). Your storage costs run you roughly 2k a year less than if you had bought many bottles as in case 2. You can use that 2k for other wine. You might have a few wines you don't care about anymore but not too many and you've mainly concentrated on long term classics anyways...

Case 2, flash forward 10 years...you have a mix of wines and you have a lot of wine cellared in this way. You have multiple bottles of the same wine..and in multiple vintages. You've bought more wines for cellaring so assuming the same budget as above, you've spent less during that time on other wines. Less money on secondary sources, less money on wines you've consumed relatively quick (both "early and "late" drinkers). You have 2k more in storage costs which also cuts into what you want to spend on wine. The advantage is you have multiple bottles of the same wines in multiple vintages to drink and try. You have a larger number of 10+ year old wine to drink on a very regular basis but that's based on wines you actually bought yourself 10 years ago...Chances are there are a good number of wines here that you don't want to drink any longer but hopefully that isn't the case.

It is obvious these are only examples...but the point is everyone assumes it is a good idea to pack away a ton of wines...but they're not considering other factors...They're not considering how much that actually costs them or eats into their budget for wine....

And this fits in well with a theme you often hear from people such as:
Buying fewer bottles but more per bottle (which can translate into much more per bottle if you have lower storage costs).
Avoiding too many multiples
Avoiding too many of a single style
Avoiding running out of storage space or requiring to spend more on storage space aka: selling your wine because you have too much
Getting over the fear of missing out, etc.
There is always another vintage of the century
There is always another great producer

You might ask, why are the wine in case 1 more expensive than case 2 (in general) - You have more money to spend per bottle in case 1 because you aren't buying a bunch of extras for cellaring...

And why would the wines you cellar be unavailable or not affordable? Are you saying with 2k you can't replace those bottles? YOu can't find them anywhere else? You can't find an alternative that is probably more interesting with 2k more per year?

And BTW, I already knew what your answer would be...But maybe think about why I'm asking it.

What I think is funny is your approach is probably closer to what I'm advocating than the alternative..

You've lost me

Case one buy old wines that have been in someones else's hole/dungeon/cellar...that are generally very expensive

or case two buy wines on release and stick them in your own cellar...certainly has been by far the most cost effective option...90 Basket Press would have to still be at sub $30 on the secondary market for me to be behind...its cost me about $8 to cellar over 20+ years

Cheers
Craig

And you're still drinking the same set of wines from then...Congrats.

Not to mention for every BP situation you have a bunch that you can buy on the secondary market for less..even older ones..

8 a bottle since 92? If you have passive storage...offsite? NO chance.

Today's offsite is more than 3k for 130 cases...could be more could be less..

But what people are failing to understand is you're not replacing all the wines you have stored up at auction...in some cases you could..in some cases you'd have to spend more...But over the course of time you've spent more money on other bottles and less on storage.

If you're happy buying cases of the same wine each year and that's your goal..cellaring may make a lot of sense...but for many it ends up being a lot of tied up cash in wine that hasn't even appreciated in value..and you're paying to store something when the value is flat...

phillisc wrote:You've lost me

Case one buy old wines that have been in someones else's hole/dungeon/cellar...that are generally very expensive

or case two buy wines on release and stick them in your own cellar...certainly has been by far the most cost effective option...90 Basket Press would have to still be at sub $30 on the secondary market for me to be behind...its cost me about $8 to cellar over 20+ years

Cheers
Craig

I had a look at this, and unless you are 'really' unlucky in your choice of wine - it is almost always cheaper to buy wine at auction after someone else has aged it than it is to store it 'offsite'. There are exceptions, but not all that many.
Which is why I built a portable 'wine room'. It's currently living in the garage - and any new place we move to will need to be able to accommodate the 3m x 1.5m x 2.5m 'room'. But it works well, stores quite a lot and will end up paying for itself (compared to offsite storage) in about another 3 years.
I can even age beer in it!!!

I still like to cellar wine. So

By the way, as an aside from living in Europe... you might think that access to the auctions of Europe is a huge boon and I am sure if you are in the market for $100+++ bottles of the finest marques it surely is.

However, I think with Langtons/Oddbins/etc in Oz, you are really lucky in your access to aged examples of all the sorts of everyday wines we like to cellar at very good prices (say $20-40) which I haven't really seen over here (though if anyone has any suggestions for something I might have missed- let me know).

Hi Sam
If you've not looked up Straker Chadwick (in the wilds of North Wales), then they are worth a look for their ~ once every 2 months auctions. Still the lowest buyer's premiums I know of, even if no longer the wonderful flat £8 level of a few years ago. The selection is often eclectic and quite different to the more traditional selections of the big name London auction houses.

There are a few others, including some online places (it's not yet taken off like it did in Aus).

Also plenty to be wary of, and there are shady practices at auction, so a little care is needed. On the flip side I've snagged a few bargains over the years, though dropped out a few years ago when I found I could buy cheaper at retail a little too often. The market was silly back then, but has probably eased back

Regards
Ian

Polymer,

Maybe the reason I cannot understand what you’re trying to say is because you are trying very hard to formulate an overly contrived argument.

Originally you said that there was no point cellaring because almost everything would be available at auction at a later date. You went on to say that cellaring would inevitably result in a person having far too many wines and perhaps wines that were no longer interesting. Now you have changed your position and are trying to make a distinction between cellaring and “selective” cellaring. This is pure artifice. By your own definition both cellaring and “selective” cellaring involve the actual cellaring of wine.

Through some bizarre sense of logic you are trying to make the case that a person who buys expensive bottles in ones and twos in almost every vintage for about ten years is not really buying to cellar. That’s farcical. Meanwhile, in order to create a distinction you insist that a person who cellars wine must, perforce, buy in multiples of six, and in every vintage. Apparently the only difference between your two scenarios is the quantity of wine and both involve cellaring. Also, if you think about it, the necessity of paying for storage is even greater for the more expensive wines that require longer cellaring.

Your two scenarios is really just what exists in most peoples cellars. They will have some expensive bottles of wines which are often bought in ones and twos, as well as less expensive bottles in larger quantities.

Polymer wrote: ...but the point is everyone assumes it is a good idea to pack away a ton of wines ...

Who ever said that one has to pack away a ton of wines? In fact the advice given in this thread is the opposite. You are being disingenuous in repeatedly insisting that cellaring, perforce, means having too many wines.

Polymer wrote: ... but they're not considering other factors...They're not considering how much that actually costs them or eats into their budget for wine....

Don’t be so condescending, people who choose to cellar wine are adults and are fully aware of what they’re spending on a bottle of wine, storage, or at auction. If they’re spending too much I reckon they know it.

Polymer wrote: You might ask, why are the wine in case 1 more expensive than case 2 (in general) - You have more money to spend per bottle in case 1 because you aren't buying a bunch of extras for cellaring...

I wouldn’t ask because I already know it is part of your flawed argument. Most people have both categories of wine in their cellar. Only you think that cellars are one-dimensional, the so-called “selective” cellar with trophy wines, and the regular “cellar” for the half-wits who keep buying extra wine that they don’t need.

Polymer wrote: And why would the wines you cellar be unavailable or not affordable? Are you saying with 2k you can't replace those bottles? YOu can't find them anywhere else? You can't find an alternative that is probably more interesting with 2k more per year?

And BTW, I already knew what your answer would be...But maybe think about why I'm asking it.

I am beginning to see that you might have a somewhat narrow understanding of the world of wine and the myriad variety of wines and styles. There are many wines that fly under the radar of collectors and will almost never appear on the secondary market, especially in older vintages. These wines tend to be bought and drunk with little consideration for aging. Example: the 1998 Rockford ‘Moppa Springs’ which I bought at cellar door. Not easy to find I suspect. (I note that you ignored my example of the 15 year-old Greek wine in an earlier post)

The more collectible wines will often be much more expensive. The Leoville Las Cases, which you seem to think can only be in the “selective cellar” but not in anybody’s regular cellar, is an example. The 1982 vintage was on the shelf for $62 when I saw them. I knew it was long-term proposition but had I not bought it at the time I certainly would not be able to afford it now.

Polymer wrote: What I think is funny is your approach is probably closer to what I'm advocating than the alternative..

My approach has nothing in common with anything you have posited in any of your posts. I find your arguments self-serving and exceedingly disingenuous. You seem to be doing your utmost to parse the term cellaring into unnecessarily convoluted twists in order to justify your position. Initially you asked whether it was worthwhile cellaring wines. Now you are shifting your argument, suggesting that the limited cellaring of expensive wines (your so-called "selective cellaring") does not count as normal cellaring. And in order to create a false distinction you insist that normal cellaring must entail profligate purchases of six-packs. You've taken a normal cellar, separated the type of wines that are usually in it, and are trying to say that the expensive part is not really cellaring. By using the term "selective cellaring" you are being disingenuous and have lost sight of your initial position which was "Don't buy to cellar...."

Mahmoud.

Polymer wrote:And you're still drinking the same set of wines from then...Congrats.

Not to mention for every BP situation you have a bunch that you can buy on the secondary market for less..even older ones..

8 a bottle since 92? If you have passive storage...offsite? NO chance.

Today's offsite is more than 3k for 130 cases...could be more could be less..

But what people are failing to understand is you're not replacing all the wines you have stored up at auction...in some cases you could..in some cases you'd have to spend more...But over the course of time you've spent more money on other bottles and less on storage.

If you're happy buying cases of the same wine each year and that's your goal..cellaring may make a lot of sense...but for many it ends up being a lot of tied up cash in wine that hasn't even appreciated in value..and you're paying to store something when the value is flat...

When I have the stamina to reply fully, early purchases in the 80s and 90s and professionally cellared for the last 20 years or so, still see me miles in front on some wines, line ball or just in front on others and a bit behind on some wines that I have purchased from 2010 onwards....that can be sourced a little cheaper today

If I was to average 20 plus years of storage payments and cellar growth from 1000-3600 bottles, and what the collection is worth either based on purchase or current second hand market price...then I am still a long way in front of trying to buy all of those wines now.
I should have dug the hole 15 years ago however.

Cheers craig