The Auswine Forum

phillisc wrote:
Interestingly if I was ever in the position to own a winery I certainly would not be charging the outrageous prices of Pennies, Henschke et al.
Instead, I would go down the Drew Noon path...humble beginnings, great ethos and maintaining the tradition of his father David (absolute super bloke who I had the pleasure of meeting many times) and $29 for the Reserve Shiraz...I have been on the mailer for 8 years now...the wine has gone up from $22 to $29!!!
In the annual release newsletter Drew writes an extensive piece on the $100 wine...and long story short states that he can't see from a cost point of view why a winemaker would need to charge that much when price per bottle to make comes nowhere near, (funny, same sentiments of a very vocal forumite on here bemoaning the latest basket press price) and two, from a marketing perspective its simply a joke (my words not Drew's).
Pleasingly, Noon will never have their wines priced anywhere near this and that's a great thing.

I'm a Noon's fan- cold winter, fireplace reds a few times a year. But to me, thy are priced for what they really are. $30-ish wines? Sure, the Parker effect drags the secondary market price up.

Are you saying they are really higher value wines and you buy them because they are $29? Doesn't this make Basket Press overpriced?

JamieBahrain wrote:

phillisc wrote:
Interestingly if I was ever in the position to own a winery I certainly would not be charging the outrageous prices of Pennies, Henschke et al.
Instead, I would go down the Drew Noon path...humble beginnings, great ethos and maintaining the tradition of his father David (absolute super bloke who I had the pleasure of meeting many times) and $29 for the Reserve Shiraz...I have been on the mailer for 8 years now...the wine has gone up from $22 to $29!!!
In the annual release newsletter Drew writes an extensive piece on the $100 wine...and long story short states that he can't see from a cost point of view why a winemaker would need to charge that much when price per bottle to make comes nowhere near, (funny, same sentiments of a very vocal forumite on here bemoaning the latest basket press price) and two, from a marketing perspective its simply a joke (my words not Drew's).
Pleasingly, Noon will never have their wines priced anywhere near this and that's a great thing.

I'm a Noon's fan- cold winter, fireplace reds a few times a year. But to me, thy are priced for what they really are. $30-ish wines? Sure, the Parker effect drags the secondary market price up.

Are you saying they are really higher value wines and you buy them because they are $29? Doesn't this make Basket Press overpriced?

Not at all, I am reflecting on a fair wine at a fair price, but as we both know there is more to just paying for what is exclusively in the bottle, evidence of your dozens of trips to OS wine regions is testimony of that. I like the Noon experience, fair, honest, no nonsense, Parker has never ever ever entered my thinking or influence, clearly it has for others...as have many other scribes who think themselves wonderful and anything that they review same...good thing is its their palate not mine.
I could say exactly the same for Rockford, 30 year purchase history, many memorable experiences and in the scheme of things $70 is OK. When it approaches $100 I will re-evaluate, but will have 20-25 dozen by then and that's more than enough.

Not sure what to make of your statement 'they are priced for what they are'...could this not be said for any wine...I think you take some exception to something actually over delivering, that people like, that has a bit of a following...heaven forbid that the consumer actually gets a win occasionally.

Cheers
Craig

Not sure what to make of your statement 'they are priced for what they are'...could this not be said for any wine...I think you take some exception to something actually over delivering, that people like, that has a bit of a following...heaven forbid that the consumer actually gets a win occasionally.

They are a $30 wine for me regardless of the secondary market value. That is, I wouldn't pay much more for them. And I like them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Australian wine is like a brand new car. Once you drive it out of the show room, its lost its value by a percentage. There are a few notable exceptions. One being Noons. One being Wendouree. One being Rockford. It's understandable if this is a measure of value for consumers that they can get their money back and some. I guess that's the consumer's occasional win you mention?

JamieBahrain wrote:

Not sure what to make of your statement 'they are priced for what they are'...could this not be said for any wine...I think you take some exception to something actually over delivering, that people like, that has a bit of a following...heaven forbid that the consumer actually gets a win occasionally.

They are a $30 wine for me regardless of the secondary market value. That is, I wouldn't pay much more for them. And I like them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Australian wine is like a brand new car. Once you drive it out of the show room, its lost its value by a percentage. There are a few notable exceptions. One being Noons. One being Wendouree. One being Rockford. It's understandable if this is a measure of value for consumers that they can get their money back and some. I guess that's the consumer's occasional win you mention?

Again, not all all, like Parker, no fascination with what makes what on the second hand market...rather that a wine that has a bit of cred, made by someone equally with a bit of cred, that engagement either through CD or mail order is pleasurable experience and you are not left feeling shafted after you buy a case or two. Some folks experience the same sensation dropping $500, a grand or more, guess I'm easier to please.
Its been 2-3 years since I have purchased anything at auction...and 20 years since selling, so getting money back is not an objective.
Cheers craig

phillisc wrote:

I could say exactly the same for Rockford, 30 year purchase history, many memorable experiences and in the scheme of things $70 is OK. When it approaches $100 I will re-evaluate, but will have 20-25 dozen by then and that's more than enough.


Cheers
Craig

I can afford any wine I like at the over $100 price point, however I cannot afford them all. For me so many top wines in NZ have increased in price by <>50% in a very short period of time. I have had to decide which wines to drop and which to keep buying. At the end of the day it is usually wineries I have a long personal relationship with that I keep. That said I am wondering if I ever buy Neudorf Moutere Chardonnay again, Te Mata Coleraine and Bullnose, all of the prestige Craggy Range wines, Stonyridge Larose, Bordeaux ep. Annoying but I already spend enough money on wine and I am not seeing pay rises at the same rate as fine wine price rises!!!

Penfolds St Henri was the only wine of theirs that I thought was still fair value (though I hadn't bought any since the 2010). Now it is $120NZ so that has dropped off too

Craig(NZ) wrote:

phillisc wrote:

I could say exactly the same for Rockford, 30 year purchase history, many memorable experiences and in the scheme of things $70 is OK. When it approaches $100 I will re-evaluate, but will have 20-25 dozen by then and that's more than enough.


Cheers
Craig

I can afford any wine I like at the over $100 price point, however I cannot afford them all. For me so many top wines in NZ have increased in price by <>50% in a very short period of time. I have had to decide which wines to drop and which to keep buying. At the end of the day it is usually wineries I have a long personal relationship with that I keep. That said I am wondering if I ever buy Neudorf Moutere Chardonnay again, Te Mata Coleraine and Bullnose, all of the prestige Craggy Range wines, Stonyridge Larose, Bordeaux ep. Annoying but I already spend enough money on wine and I am not seeing pay rises at the same rate as fine wine price rises!!!

Penfolds St Henri was the only wine of theirs that I thought was still fair value (though I hadn't bought any since the 2010). Now it is $120NZ so that has dropped off too

Yes know what you mean, Bests Thompson's, Coriole Lloyd, MM Quintet, YY 1 and 2 were all annual buys...dropped off some time ago.
Its John Riddoch now...and thankfully have only paid $100 on just 2 occasions.
Lucky there are a number of others where my age will hopefully keep pace with price...in my early 50s so that's really all I want to spend on a bottle...in 10 years will be happy to spend $60.
As you say Craig wages have not kept pace and price per unit (bottle) for any red in the country maxes out at around $30 or so...someones making a hell of a profit.

Cheers craig

phillisc wrote: As you say Craig wages have not kept pace and price per unit (bottle) for any red in the country maxes out at around $30 or so...someones making a hell of a profit.

What can happen, is that when that gap starts to rise, it has a knock-on effect on vineyard land valuations. With producer being bigger than vineyard in Australia, I doubt the effect is as big, but in parts of Europe, the effect has been enormous.

Just in from the great man (JH), just in case you are after a "bargain"

By now, Australian wine lovers would have scoured the Penfolds Collection in a flurry of excitement.

While the pinnacle wine from the line-up, Penfolds Grange, will have received its fair share of attention, here at Halliday Wine Companion, we went in search of some other worthwhile investments from the list.

If you love the luscious style of Penfolds reds like Grange, but don’t love the premium price tag, consider alternatives such as the RWT Shiraz ($200). If you’re after a bargain, scoop up the Bin 128 Coonawarra Shiraz ($60) and the Bin 28 Kalimna Shiraz ($50). James describes the Bin 128 as having impeccable balance and length, making it a good one to layaway, while the Bin 28, with its mouth-watering array of flavours, might be hard to resist right now.

Matt@5453 wrote:Just in from the great man (JH), just in case you are after a "bargain"

By now, Australian wine lovers would have scoured the Penfolds Collection in a flurry of excitement.

While the pinnacle wine from the line-up, Penfolds Grange, will have received its fair share of attention, here at Halliday Wine Companion, we went in search of some other worthwhile investments from the list.

If you love the luscious style of Penfolds reds like Grange, but don’t love the premium price tag, consider alternatives such as the RWT Shiraz ($200). If you’re after a bargain, scoop up the Bin 128 Coonawarra Shiraz ($60) and the Bin 28 Kalimna Shiraz ($50). James describes the Bin 128 as having impeccable balance and length, making it a good one to layaway, while the Bin 28, with its mouth-watering array of flavours, might be hard to resist right now.

I don't want to reopen the Halliday debate, but seriously his name has no credibility anymore - it has been integrated too heavily in the marketing spin.

sjw_11 wrote:but seriously his name has no credibility anymore - it has been integrated too heavily in the marketing spin.

Maybe it should have been kept under screw, it's clearly corked

Redav wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:but seriously his name has no credibility anymore - it has been integrated too heavily in the marketing spin.

Maybe it should have been kept under screw, it's clearly corked

Is "Halliday" now a trademark and not a person? Might explain a few things while maintaining the outstanding legacy of the man himself.

crusty2 wrote:

Redav wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:but seriously his name has no credibility anymore - it has been integrated too heavily in the marketing spin.

Maybe it should have been kept under screw, it's clearly corked

Is "Halliday" now a trademark and not a person? Might explain a few things while maintaining the outstanding legacy of the man himself.

"Halliday Wine Companion" is trademarked - [url]https://search.ipaustralia.gov.au/trademarks ... ew/1852129[/url]

crusty2 wrote:

Redav wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:but seriously his name has no credibility anymore - it has been integrated too heavily in the marketing spin.

Maybe it should have been kept under screw, it's clearly corked

Is "Halliday" now a trademark and not a person? Might explain a few things while maintaining the outstanding legacy of the man himself.

You can only lose your name to a marketing machine trade mark if you choose to (or perhaps get unlucky, as has happened to some chefs)... in this case, I am pretty sure it is a commercial deal and he made a choice to sell out.

Whether that detracts from his legacy or not is up to you... I mean, he made a choice to pocket piles of money in return for giving up his credibility. On the other hand, he previously made an indefinably large contribution to the growth and improvement of the Australian wine industry.

I am reminded of when Grinspoon released Chemical Heart which did very well commercially but represented an entire change in style. All their old fans were like "what the hell", and I recall the band being quoted something to the extent of "we wanted to make money, and its our f*** band, so deal with it." (I may be paraphrasing)

Here is a Canadian take on the 2018 Penfold's Release in New York. Reviews of a large number of wines, both red and white, but a price ofr only the Bin 389, presumably in Ontario.

https://www.winealign.com/articles/2018/11/0 ... ease-2018/

Cheers ........... Mahmoud.

sjw_11 wrote:

crusty2 wrote:

Redav wrote: Maybe it should have been kept under screw, it's clearly corked

Is "Halliday" now a trademark and not a person? Might explain a few things while maintaining the outstanding legacy of the man himself.

You can only lose your name to a marketing machine trade mark if you choose to (or perhaps get unlucky, as has happened to some chefs)... in this case, I am pretty sure it is a commercial deal and he made a choice to sell out.

Whether that detracts from his legacy or not is up to you... I mean, he made a choice to pocket piles of money in return for giving up his credibility. On the other hand, he previously made an indefinably large contribution to the growth and improvement of the Australian wine industry.

I am reminded of when Grinspoon released Chemical Heart which did very well commercially but represented an entire change in style. All their old fans were like "what the hell", and I recall the band being quoted something to the extent of "we wanted to make money, and its our f*** band, so deal with it." (I may be paraphrasing)

A bit like Van Halen with Jump and Metallica with Nothing Else Matters....

crusty2 wrote:

Redav wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:but seriously his name has no credibility anymore - it has been integrated too heavily in the marketing spin.

Maybe it should have been kept under screw, it's clearly corked

Is "Halliday" now a trademark and not a person? Might explain a few things while maintaining the outstanding legacy of the man himself.

I'm not sure his trademark is worth much if my experience is anything to go on. His internet subscription service is a great guide for me after adjusting for the generous points. Each year getting close to my subscription renewal date there is a free gift as an incentive to renew. Last year it was one of Wynns special vineyard wines (can't remember the name) that had a RRP only marginally below the subscription price. It happens every year. My subscription expires this month so I'm keen to see this year's offer.

Carl

Latest offer from BBR for RWT and Grange with some commentary... Gav I hope putting the prices up for international comparison is fine since I don't think you sell Pennies anyway...

2016 Penfolds Bin 798, RWT Shiraz, Coonawarra - £453 per 6 bottles In Bond (only 8 cases available)
Like walking into a spice shop: cinnamon, cardamom and lavender along with hints of chocolate, orange and forest floor. The palate is classically Barossa in its proportions, with massive blue and black fruit supported by layers of cinnamon, lavender, five spice and smoked meat flavours. It’s all wrapped in a blanket of cedar and vanilla. The tannins and wood are still very strong and need a little time to integrate. Drink 2021-2030. (Jancis Robinson – 18/20)

2014 Penfolds Grange - £2070 per 6 bottles In Bond (only 6 cases available)
Fully ripe, intensely flavoured and structured, this is a magnificent wine. Deep plush garnet, the wine has an unmistakable fragrant Grange nose of dark fruits, spices, coffee bean and gamey notes. On the palate there is a backbone of firm tannins and great lifting freshness; savoury, meaty and earthy with a fruit profile reminiscent of black plums and blueberries. Grange has an amazing power, with complexity and persistence shown on the very long finish which allows all the flavours to coat the palate beautifully. (WA – 98 points)

Best part was it was sent by a guy named Paul Keating

Don't know if anyone else shares the opinion, but the fluff piece in the Weekend Oz left me feeling so uninspired...the most boring top 100 I have seen in 20 years. I have just 2 of the wines represented...perhaps I am boring The journo covering the Len Evans tutorial was gagging himself like a six moth old puppy desperate to get off the leash...what a lot of clobbers...I found the write up on 20 beers far more interesting.

Cheers craig

The Top 100 didn't excite me terribly. The standard "if you are rich or in the trade and fairly rich, look at what you can drink!"-piece was, as wine porn goes, an average effort too.

-- George Krashos

I remember reading some interviews with Peter Gago recently saying that Penfolds has to price itself with respect to the the world fine wine market. If thats so, then can I point out that there is 1 large retailer in Europe currently offering the '12 389 at $60 a bottle. Interesting in 2 ways - the price itself and of course the fact that an old, well regarded vintage has still not sold through. Actually seems a fair price, but maybe that because the current prices are just so high.

Gago and pals can price it as they see fit, but in doing so, they lost me as a customer many years ago. If they succeed in the long term, then well done them. I hope their new markets support them well, because most of their old customers will have moved on to better value wines and won't feel the loyalty to return. The bridges have been burnt.

Ian S wrote:Gago and pals can price it as they see fit, but in doing so, they lost me as a customer many years ago. If they succeed in the long term, then well done them. I hope their new markets support them well, because most of their old customers will have moved on to better value wines and won't feel the loyalty to return. The bridges have been burnt.

Well put, it holds true for me as well.

Mahmoud.

+1 Ian and Mahmoud
Pennies alienated the domestic market decades ago, the only public praise is from scribes too worried to call it for what it is, for fear of missing out on the next junket.
There you go.
Cheers Craig

My dad was so upset when I very gently asked him to stop getting me a grange for special birthday occasions.
He gets the St Henri on the less special ones and I don’t mind that, I actually think it’s the best value wine they have and the only one that is in some ways the style I like, at least for that kind of wine.