The Auswine Forum

JakeBarnes wrote:

phillisc wrote:Or Jake what Pennies and Petaluma did in years gone by...I have 02 Riesling with both closures and 3 vintages of St Henri with cork and stelvin.

Cheers
Craig

Have you compared them Craig? I think it would be great if they offered both but I guess there would be an added cost that way. Personally Rockford is pretty much the only wine I buy under cork and it irks me to know that in every case I buy one of them is going to turn out to be a dud. $60 odd bucks wasted if that's a BP.

Everything I've read suggests wine ages well under screwcap, possibly even better than cork, though I've never tried two of the same wine with different closures that have been stored together side by side.

What's Rockford's attitude to people contacting them about corked bottles? No quibble refund or replace?

I know the feelings on cork with many, but what is nice about Rockford is they aren't like the mugs from Burgundy. You have a shitty bottle and you get a replacement.

Thanks Jamie!

Yes have had many bottles happily replaced over the years, whites as well.
Cheers
Craig

As much as I would like to participate in the poll I can't as I don't own any Rockford Basket Press. It has been a rare sight here in Edmonton and I only recall seeing one vintage and at the time was told by the owner of the store that, together with the Rockford riesling, they were a "hard sell" - in fact the riesling was reduced for clearance. However I do believe that had I been living in Australia I would have bought the Basket Press, not only because of its history and tradition but also because I liked what I tasted on two separate visits to cellar door.

The first time I visited Rockford was in 1995 and I would have tasted the 1992 vintage. I had not previously heard of Rockford and was taken there by a fellow from Melbourne who was visiting the Barossa. We met at the local backpacker hotel. He offered to drive me around to the smaller wineries that a Canadian was not likely to have heard of and that is how I ended up at Rockfords. He asked me to pretend to be impressed by this "Rockford Basket Press" wine and to buy a case for which he would reimburse me when we got back into his car (there was a case limit and he had already bought one the day before). I agreed. As it turned out I quite liked the wine and had no trouble talking up the wine and agreeing that it was quite the cellar-worthy wine. It was not at all what one might describe as a full throttle Barossa shiraz, rather, as I recall, a young, elegant, but firm wine with dark fruit, structure, and extract. I understood why my new acquaintance wanted a second case. For my own part I was on a trip across Australia and headed for China so buying any for myself was out of the question.

My next visit to Rockford was in early 2001 and this time I could buy wine to take home however they were sold out of the Basket Press. While tasting several people came in and implored the cellar door staff for but a single bottle but to no avail, one person being a cellar hand at another winery who had heard so much about the '98 Basket Press. Fortunately they had the 1998 on tasting. I thought it was a very good wine with plenty of depth and structure, and well suited to cellaring. From among the rest of the portfolio the Moppa Springs and the Growers Semillon, both from the '98 vintage, were the best value for money. Last year I opened the '98 Moppa Springs and it had evolved beautifully, an ample reward for my patience.

Had I been the owner of the vintages of the Basket Press that I tasted I would have voted for the following two options:

#2 - It is rich in tradition and history and worth supporting..
#3 - It's a style of shiraz I enjoy..

As for #4 - Fair value even though stooped in history, shouldn't it be steeped in history, unless of course the author meant to imply some sort of decline.

Cheers ................... Mahmoud.

Ian S wrote:

Polymer wrote:But isn't that because of the export market that someone would still do both?

Either you think SC is a viable alternative or you don't....If you do but offer both it is because certain markets (US, China) will demand cork....If you do you'd not want to offer cork for any reason other than overwhelming market demand (which isn't the case in AU for cork). If you don't think it is viable you won't offer SC to your customers for any reason...

I'm not saying a choice wouldn't be great...In fact I'd love to be able to buy wines under both simply to do a comparative tasting down the line...But I'm not sure it makes any sense except under certain conditions...

A subject that very much interests me and I love hearing of such comparative tastings.

I suppose there might be the odd producer who sees the debate as not finally decided, and bottle under both to hedge their bets and allow further direct comparison. Maybe even one or two who might hand bottle a few bottles under cork to provide that comparison? Presumably there have been more who practice the reverse scenario (including some prestigious names such as Penfolds at their top end) who bottle a small amount under screwcap as part of ongoing comparative trials.

There are producers that have put wines under both for their own use (testing) but these aren't wines they normally released (unfortunately).

A group of us were at Lakes Folly (which Mick mentions). They actually had some (not many from what I recall) under SC and we did a comparative tasting of the latest release at the winery....Even the Lakes guys were surprised (as were we) at the difference in the two wines even though it hadn't been bottled for too long (Under a year I think).

In isolation you probably don't notice it much..but side by side the difference was obvious...

What I thought was funny is even people that preferred the cork version, bought some or mostly screwcap...I mean, who knows...we might hate the way reds age under SC...or even whites like Chardonnay, we might find we hate the way they age under SC...or at least find that the lack of oxygen ingress in the early days really did impact the aging process...or even that cork is doing something to age the wine..or at least age it the way we want....it definitely is not inert...

JamieBahrain wrote:I know the feelings on cork with many, but what is nice about Rockford is they aren't like the mugs from Burgundy. You have a shitty bottle and you get a replacement.

hey Jamie, to be fair, it is not the responsibility of the "mugs" from Burgundy to replace a corked bottle.... it is the responsibility of the retailer who sold you the bottle. Any arrangement between retailer/importer and Domaine is decided at the time of the ex-cellar purchase, although more often if the bottle is very expensive, insurance will cover it.
Totally different to the situation where you purchase from cellar door or mailing list, where the winemaker is essentially acting as the vendor.
I have certainly had very expensive corked bottles of Burgundy replaced by the retailer who sold them to me... as far up the chain as a 1999 Rousseau Chambertin!!!!

phillisc wrote:Yes have had many bottles happily replaced over the years, whites as well.
Cheers
Craig

I've never tried that. Can you just call up and say "hey, that bottle was crap, send me another please?". Is there a window for doing that or could I call up about a 20 year old BP and get a replacement?

A polite email would be a good place to start.

felixp21 wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:I know the feelings on cork with many, but what is nice about Rockford is they aren't like the mugs from Burgundy. You have a shitty bottle and you get a replacement.

hey Jamie, to be fair, it is not the responsibility of the "mugs" from Burgundy to replace a corked bottle.... it is the responsibility of the retailer who sold you the bottle. Any arrangement between retailer/importer and Domaine is decided at the time of the ex-cellar purchase, although more often if the bottle is very expensive, insurance will cover it.
Totally different to the situation where you purchase from cellar door or mailing list, where the winemaker is essentially acting as the vendor.
I have certainly had very expensive corked bottles of Burgundy replaced by the retailer who sold them to me... as far up the chain as a 1999 Rousseau Chambertin!!!!

Felix, actually Rousseau can be the greatest mugs of all. One long lost forumite whom lived in Beaune for a few years was told point blank that taint was the price of perfection and no refund.

Now, we both constantly bemoan the price of imported wine on Oz, so your saying an importer must factor TCA returns into his pricing equations? I mean who would sell white burg/ chablis?

Mahmoud Ali wrote:As for #4 - Fair value even though stooped in history, shouldn't it be steeped in history, unless of course the author meant to imply some sort of decline.

Of course, it should be steeped in history. I can't edit a poll but I'm sure everyone new what was meant.

Autofill disengaged to stop the new vigour of my computer to use predictive text so out of whack.

JakeBarnes wrote:

phillisc wrote:Yes have had many bottles happily replaced over the years, whites as well.
Cheers
Craig

I've never tried that. Can you just call up and say "hey, that bottle was crap, send me another please?". Is there a window for doing that or could I call up about a 20 year old BP and get a replacement?

Yes you can and I have. It is also another reason why I buy BP still. Replacements from their passive cellar never as good as mine but hey.

As a wine lover I do my utmost to get the bottle to them or have it checked by a MW friend etc. There was a scam where people were abusing this honesty system and I think it's in all our interests to go a little beyond just ringing them up if possible.

JamieBahrain wrote:

JakeBarnes wrote:

phillisc wrote:Yes have had many bottles happily replaced over the years, whites as well.
Cheers
Craig

I've never tried that. Can you just call up and say "hey, that bottle was crap, send me another please?". Is there a window for doing that or could I call up about a 20 year old BP and get a replacement?

Yes you can and I have.It is also another reason why I buy BP still. Replacements from their passive cellar never as good as mine but hey.

As a wine lover I do my utmost to get the bottle to them or have it checked by a MW friend etc. There was a scam where people were abusing this honesty system and I think it's in all our interests to go a little beyond just ringing them up if possible.

Jake, agree with Jamie and Hunter on this one...there has to be a little integrity shown here in terms of it reflecting an honest situation...which I am sure is the case.
Rockford is one of the few wineries where after just a year or two I wasn't only buying their wares, but a relationship as well...simply they know me, and after 30 years of purchasing its been a great relationship.
Other wineries that I have supported over the journey have had relationships that resemble messy divorces...lawyers ringing me up for speaking my mind, some I have worked through and stuck with...others have been given the bird.
Once you have a good relationship its like any product, if it is not fit for purpose, faulty, stuffed etc. then you should be entitled to a refund or replacement.
Rockford have all my transaction history in their computer, so when I said the odd BP, a bottle of 06 Cordon Cut was corked, they made a note sent me a replacement, or allowed me something extra when I next visited the CD.
Cheers
Craig

felixp21 wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:I know the feelings on cork with many, but what is nice about Rockford is they aren't like the mugs from Burgundy. You have a shitty bottle and you get a replacement.

hey Jamie, to be fair, it is not the responsibility of the "mugs" from Burgundy to replace a corked bottle.... it is the responsibility of the retailer who sold you the bottle. Any arrangement between retailer/importer and Domaine is decided at the time of the ex-cellar purchase, although more often if the bottle is very expensive, insurance will cover it.
Totally different to the situation where you purchase from cellar door or mailing list, where the winemaker is essentially acting as the vendor.
I have certainly had very expensive corked bottles of Burgundy replaced by the retailer who sold them to me... as far up the chain as a 1999 Rousseau Chambertin!!!!

Of course it should be their responsibility to replace the corked bottle. The retailer would replace it for the end user and the distributor replaces it for them and the winery replaces it for the distributor. This happens this way in AU as well but a lot of times the Winery will short circuit that to make it easier and better for their customer.

Now it could be they don't have a way to replace wines direct to customers and would require customers to go through this chain but ultimately they still should be replacing the bottle.

But they don't...not because they shouldn't but because they can get away with it. The retailer may go to the distributor but the distributor won't go back to the Burgundy producer because they don't want to piss them off. Of course this depends on which producer but for in demand ones where they're marking it up several times more than what is normal, they end up eating that risk themselves because they make it up and have no desire piss off the producers (even if they had a legal leg to stand on).

There are several retailers in Europe with long standing relationships with some good producers in Burgundy and they will often work out something with the Burgundy producer for replacement...but it does seem like that is because they know them vs. the norm.

That makes sense and it's good to know they do that, though I doubt I'd ever contact them personally unless I was 100 per cent certain the bottle was corked. The issue for me is with the ones that are just a bit iffy because of the cork. I'd feel bad asking for a replacement for those but would still be wasting my money, hence the preference for SC.

I am not sure about that Polymer.
Unless the act has changed in the past 3 weeks, the last time I looked, it is the responsibility of the vendor at the final point of sale to replace a defective bottle. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Domaine, unless it has been purchased directly from that Domaine (a good example is Marchand-Tawse in NSG, who will and do replace corked bottles upon presentation of the bottle and receipt)
obviously, it is impossible for a winemaker in Burgundy to replace a faulty bottle for a consumer 20,000 kms away. That is why the importer takes a margin knowing that such situations arise. (rest assured, the retailer comes to the importer with bottle in hand!!)
As an importer, the last thing that crosses my mind is that i might "piss" off a producer, it is simply the practicality that gets in the way of any sensible resolution between consumer and Domaine.
As mentioned above, I have only returned a corked bottle once in my life, it being a Rousseau Chambertin. The retailer in Sydney asked for, and received, the re-corked bottle and replaced it with a 2002 Chambertin (the "incident" happened about 2005 from memory)
Normally, I wouldn't bother, but given this was such a young wine at the time, and the cost, I went thru with the hassle.

I think that you will find the much larger problem for those ITB is pre-moxed wines, not corked wines. But goodness, please, let's not go there!!!!!

Rockford won't be moving to SC for Basket Press any time soon. From a recent email to me:

"I am sorry to hear of your corked bottle of 2010 Basket Press Shiraz – while thankfully it is a very rare occurrence for us, it’s always a frustrating when this happens. We work closely with our cork supplier to ensure we have the best corks possible made available to us, but even so, there are still rare occasions where we experience cork failure. Given our commitment to cork, we are happy to replace any cork affected bottles our customers experience."

This was the first corked Rockford I had struck (other than a Black Shiraz many years ago). I too would prefer if they went to SC but this is clearly not going to happen.

Btw, I notice some references to "Rocky". If you ever happen to meet Robert and want your relationship to get off to a frosty start, call him Rocky.

felixp21 wrote:I am not sure about that Polymer.
Unless the act has changed in the past 3 weeks, the last time I looked, it is the responsibility of the vendor at the final point of sale to replace a defective bottle. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Domaine, unless it has been purchased directly from that Domaine (a good example is Marchand-Tawse in NSG, who will and do replace corked bottles upon presentation of the bottle and receipt)
obviously, it is impossible for a winemaker in Burgundy to replace a faulty bottle for a consumer 20,000 kms away. That is why the importer takes a margin knowing that such situations arise. (rest assured, the retailer comes to the importer with bottle in hand!!)
As an importer, the last thing that crosses my mind is that i might "piss" off a producer, it is simply the practicality that gets in the way of any sensible resolution between consumer and Domaine.
As mentioned above, I have only returned a corked bottle once in my life, it being a Rousseau Chambertin. The retailer in Sydney asked for, and received, the re-corked bottle and replaced it with a 2002 Chambertin (the "incident" happened about 2005 from memory)
Normally, I wouldn't bother, but given this was such a young wine at the time, and the cost, I went thru with the hassle.

I think that you will find the much larger problem for those ITB is pre-moxed wines, not corked wines. But goodness, please, let's not go there!!!!!

You're right the retailer is obligated to replace it for the end user. And the distributor to the retailer and then winery to the distributor.
But the winery is still on the hook to "replace" the wine....

And as far as distributor vs. producer...it isn't done with actual replacement of the wine, it would be resolved via credits....

When it comes to a distributor, in say AU, dealing with Burgundy producers...either they have an understanding that they'll replace (credit) or they're not doing it because they have no desire to upset the producer and the bigger than normal margins make up for that...Seems like that is the case for any wines in very high demand...for stuff where it isn't like that, the relationship seems to be different.

It is one of the reasons why Burgundy producers, while annoyed at Premox, don't seem to be treating it with as much seriousness as they should...because ultimately, whether it is TCA or premox, their distributors aren't going back to them to replace the bottles...and it certainly doesn't help that most consumers don't go back to the retailers who then don't often go back to the distributors who don't go back to the producers...and as you said, Premox is a bigger problem..but it is also so much less straightforward than TCA.

Btw, I notice some references to "Rocky". If you ever happen to meet Robert and want your relationship to get off to a frosty start, call him Rocky.

Yeah I was flamed on the other forum years ago suggesting that by Rockford know it alls.

I was told by one of the sons, there was a dog called Rocky at cellar door and every time somebody called the winery asking for "Rocky", staff would say he couldn't come to the phone right now coz he was licking his balls.

Sigmamupi wrote:Rockford won't be moving to SC for Basket Press any time soon. From a recent email to me:

"I am sorry to hear of your corked bottle of 2010 Basket Press Shiraz – while thankfully it is a very rare occurrence for us, it’s always a frustrating when this happens. We work closely with our cork supplier to ensure we have the best corks possible made available to us, but even so, there are still rare occasions where we experience cork failure. Given our commitment to cork, we are happy to replace any cork affected bottles our customers experience."

This was the first corked Rockford I had struck (other than a Black Shiraz many years ago). I too would prefer if they went to SC but this is clearly not going to happen.

Btw, I notice some references to "Rocky". If you ever happen to meet Robert and want your relationship to get off to a frosty start, call him Rocky.

Yeah I don't expect them to change either, and obviously it doesn't bother me enough to not buy, but I'll politely make them aware of my preference from time to time, just in case the idea ever gets traction.

I wasn't aware he didn't like being called Rocky, I'll stop doing that. Thanks for the headsup.

Ahh yes an oldie but a goodie...why do they, cause they can

cheers
Craig

JamieBahrain wrote:I was told by one of the sons, there was a dog called Rocky at cellar door and every time somebody called the winery asking for "Rocky", staff would say he couldn't come to the phone right now coz he was licking his balls.

Yeah, this is printed in the Rag ('93).

JamieBahrain wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:As for #4 - Fair value even though stooped in history, shouldn't it be steeped in history, unless of course the author meant to imply some sort of decline.

Of course, it should be steeped in history. I can't edit a poll but I'm sure everyone new what was meant.

Autofill disengaged to stop the new vigour of my computer to use predictive text so out of whack.

I know, as I'm sure as others did, that it was meant to be "steeped" but couldn't resist an attempt at humour. Clearly a failure on my part.

Mahmoud.

I buy a couple of bottles each year. It is always a crowd pleaser amongst friends and family as a special occasion wine. I tend to think people appreciate it based on its history, tradition and consistency. I agree with some of the comments above, sure there are other more "interesting" wines around, but not everyone has a palate to enjoy those, hence I tend to default back to Rockford Basket Press as a special occasion wine to be shared.

Shared a bottle of the '13 on Saturday. Medium bodied, good texture (velvety), plum, modest oak. Easy drinking for such a young wine but it didn't float my boat. So much more available at the price level. A bit like Penfolds. Was great before the competition caught up. To be honest I've never had a "great" BP although I've only had a few. I don't think I've ever had a really mature one. Still, I'm probably in the minority. I'd like to put it up blind to see if people drink labels.

Carl

JamieBahrain wrote:

JakeBarnes wrote:

phillisc wrote:Yes have had many bottles happily replaced over the years, whites as well.
Cheers
Craig

I've never tried that. Can you just call up and say "hey, that bottle was crap, send me another please?". Is there a window for doing that or could I call up about a 20 year old BP and get a replacement?

Yes you can and I have. It is also another reason why I buy BP still. Replacements from their passive cellar never as good as mine but hey.

As a wine lover I do my utmost to get the bottle to them or have it checked by a MW friend etc. There was a scam where people were abusing this honesty system and I think it's in all our interests to go a little beyond just ringing them up if possible.

Hey Jamie,
Just out of curiousity what temp do you think their passive cellar gets up to in summer and drops to in winter?

I would say its at 20 or close to it all year round. I have been there in January when it was 43 outside and it felt nice and cool, but certainly not cold like the beer fridge at Dans.
More to the point, I have been there on a cold ten degree day when they have had the open fire going full bore and have walked down to the cellar and it feels as warm as the room above or warmer.
Having that lovely big iron gate looks nice, but probably doesn't help things.

cheers
Craig

Chuck wrote:Shared a bottle of the '13 on Saturday.So much more available at the price level.
Carl

Are you referring to V2013 in particular or Rockford in general? I'd love to hear your recommendations for say 5-6 wines "at the price level" that equal or exceed this wine? Thx

Agreed,
I know where you are coming from Chuck, but 5-6 wines at the same price point actually doesn't exist.
Apart from the 20 year experiment of the SVS's, Rockford only makes one Shiraz, a stand alone Shiraz.

At 50-60 dollars we are are talking about Barossa/EV Shiraz that are second or third stringers at most other wineries. I would think that there is a strong argument that their first stringers are not 3 times as good as BP, nor more importantly within 3 times the price or less.

Cheers Craig

phillisc wrote:Agreed,
I know where you are coming from Chuck, but 5-6 wines at the same price point actually doesn't exist.
Apart from the 20 year experiment of the SVS's, Rockford only makes one Shiraz, a stand alone Shiraz.

At 50-60 dollars we are are talking about Barossa/EV Shiraz that are second or third stringers at most other wineries. I would think that there is a strong argument that their first stringers are not 3 times as good as BP, nor more importantly within 3 times the price or less.

Cheers Craig

Fair comment Craig. Perhaps I was looking more at the secondary market prices. However whilst it is a good wine I would not pay $60 for it. Just my palate talking to me. I'm guilty of being a cabernet and Bordeaux grapes guy and don't buy much shiraz. I would love to "get" good shiraz. A bit like offal. I'd love to enjoy it as much as those that do. Give me a Malbec any day over a shiraz. I'm putting the hard hat on now.

Carl