The Auswine Forum

My apologies Gavin.

I guess it is ok to make outrageous and ignorant statements on this DB, but not cool to respond to such. So I will just leave it at this one final point.
It was posted above that China has "hundreds of millions of people living below the poverty line", which was curiously set at $1 per day. Whilst
'poverty line standards" vary considerably from country to country, WHO definition seems to be an annual income of less than $3,400USD.
Anyway, I know this is off topic, and it will be my last post on the subject, but readers may never-the-less find it very interesting. Economists out there will not be surprised, as the status quo has been there for a while, with respect to percentage of the population living below the poverty line:
1. Chad
2. Haiti
3. Liberia
4. Congo
5. Sierra Leone
6.Nigeria
21. Mexico (that surprised me, so I put it in)
56. Ukraine (again surprising)
102. Greece (perhaps not that surprising any more)
123. United States
128. United Kingdom
130. China, which has 13.4% of its entire population living below the poverty line. hmmm, hundreds of millions earning less than $1 a day? Gee wiz, I do not think you will find McDonalds, Starbucks, Burger King, BMW, Mercedes, Adidas, Puma blah blah agreeing with you… the Chinese market is the largest in the world for these and hundreds of multinationals. And yes, a Frappacino in Shenzhen, Jinan or anywhere else in China costs you exactly the same as in the USA, or Australia for that matter.

Now, if I was still on the Greenock Creek mailer, I would certainly buy the Apricot block to consume with a nice bbq anytime over the next five years.

felixp

I have a mate who is a grey marketeer and he says trucks of his stuff disappear over the border which is mostly Aussie- he moved 200 x 98 HofG in one shipment.

I live in HKG and yes, I'm not trying to understand the Chinese market, it is a riddle but here, Australian wines do move quite well if competitively priced. E-tailers fair best, not paying the HKG land lord, but Id say the market is mature and demand pretty good for Aussies.

yep, demand for HoG, Grange 707 and other flagships used to be reasonable. Less so now the boss has stopped all the "gifting" that went on. Ahh, I remember the days when I had to give a certain official in Qingdao a "gift" of a wood box of 6 2002 Grange to ensure my (now) wife's third coffee shop would be renovated and expanded without undue delay. These days, such a transaction would put both our lives very much at stake. If you are in HK, I am sure you are keeping up to date with the weekly executions that are occurring, including recently the former mayor of ChongQing.
I buy all my wine in HK off internet guys, like most do, but I haven't really come across Greenock Creek there. Maybe Watson's or Etc wine carries them?

felixp wrote:I guess it is ok to mke outrageous and ignorant statements on this DB, but not cool to respond to such. So I will just leave it at this one final point.

I was going to leave this alone but the only one quoting unsubstantiated "facts" are you. But unlike everyone else who is ok with a healthy debate, you're choosing to strike out at people with personal insults. Responding is fine. But I'm sure you must be reading your own data and wondering why it varies between posts and is from all accounts is not accurate.

felixp wrote:It was posted above that China has "hundreds of millions of people living below the poverty line", which was curiously set at $1 per day. Whilst
'poverty line standards" vary considerably from country to country, WHO definition seems to be an annual income of less than $3,400USD.

Again, your data doesn't stack up. Your definition is incorrect because those numbers are based on EACH COUNTRY individually. So an amount that is determined to be "below the poverty line" for each country is different. This is coming from the same survey you're quoting and yet you're using the WHO poverty definition. Here is some of the information you left out:
National estimates of the percentage of the population falling below the poverty line are based on surveys of sub-groups, with the results weighted by the number of people in each group. Definitions of poverty vary considerably among nations. For example, rich nations generally employ more generous standards of poverty than poor nations.

The rankings you listed has NOTHING to do with the WHO definition of poverty.... Eg. The US defined in 2005 the poverty line for an individual was 10k. Even if we applied your WHO number, that is three times that number.

To back up the hundred million of under a dollar a day claim (not by me but by sam)

As of 2009
11.8% in China made less than 1.25 dollars a day. For under 2 dollars a day in PPP, there were 27.2%

So if we took 1.5 billion people that is 177 MILLION people that were under 1.25 dollars per day as of 2009.
408 MILLION under 2 dollars if you looked at PPP.

Conditions are most definitely a lot better than 2009...but saying a hundred or hundreds of millions of people isn't as far off as the "facts" you're mixing up in your argument.

What you also seem to misunderstand is while there are numerically a lot of rich people in China (which no one has disagreed with), there are a lot of VERY poor people as well. The average wage is nowhere near where you seem to imply it is..their GDP per capita is nowhere near where you seem to think it is. The numbers I see place the very good areas at around 20kish per capita which is about 1/3rd of that of Australia as a country and 1/2 of that as many states in the US. The average wage in China is under 5000 per year.

Sorry about the threadjack but you're sitting here, obviously frustrated because your data is being challenged because it is incorrect. You'd be much better off saying you read it wrong and just making the point, there are a LOT of rich people in China. If only 10% of the population could afford some luxury goods, that is over 150 Million people which is more than 7 times the entire population of Australia and nearly half the population of the US. That is a HUGE market. I see no point in you trying to prove your data is correct when it is factually not - You made a mistake, lets move on.

But so I'm back on track....

I agree that most Greenock Creeks don't seem to age well..the Grenache actually seems to get better with about 8-10 years on it...the rest seem to be in a bit of an awkward state when they get some age. I've seen a lot of people say they'll never age...I've also seen some people on other boards come back to these big reds and have actually found that they DID age well to their surprise. I think they're great bbq wines..great to have with friends...but to me they seem to be their best a couple of years from release. I do think they hide their alcohol reasonably well (they were dropping but I noticed this years release seems to have gone up a bit?). I think for the price they're actually pretty good value (not so sure about the RR though).

I spend half my working day speaking to a factory in Humen. About an hour from Guangzhou.
Working conditions are pretty average at best and most workers live on site
and never leave except for Chinese new year.
It's par for course in the area and in terms of working conditions it ain't that special.
Admittedly I've never been there but a work colleague is regularly there and tells me the whole area is
the same and you really wouldn't want to be working there for any length of time.
Put it this way, the workers wouldn't be drinking GC but the owner might!
They only know one Aus wine brand and that's Penfolds.
When the owners son is here he only buys Penfolds.
They seem a bit spellbound by it and couldn't care for anything else.
just my 2 cents.

As for the GC mailer. I liked and purchased the 2011 Cab from the CD last year.
Quite liked it and laid it down to see what happens!
AP block still my fave though.

thanks Polymer.
I can see that my facts are "unsubstantiated" but it seems you think yours are. (???????)
awesome.
you must be right.
silly me.

Without a doubt, your facts are mixed up. A simple google search shows that.

Go Swans!

Polymer wrote:Without a doubt, your facts are mixed up. A simple google search shows that.

Go Swans!

Go Google, go Greenock Creek and GO SWANS!

yep, I posted the "simple google search" above, and I am sure you know it!!!

Go Hawks!!!!

Felix

Don't fear, you can load up on GC at Watsons in HKG! :

felixp wrote:yep, I posted the "simple google search" above, and I am sure you know it!!!

Go Hawks!!!!

Hawks supporter?!! It all makes sense now.

That's the best read I've had in a long time!

Sigh

Getting bored now.

.

Gavin Trott wrote:Sigh

Getting bored now.

.

+1

we got a huge BBQ after the game on Saturday, drinking red wines from every vintage the Hawks have won. Happily, it seems the 2008 wine is the Greenock Creek Creek Block shiraz!!! Cool, I will post TN's here if I can remember what it tasted like the next day.
got the email on the wines to be sloshed:

61 Ducru Beaucaillou
71 Great Western Shiraz
76 Wendouree Shiraz (!!!)
78 Seaview Cab Sav (I don't think the winery exists any more)
83 Tahbilk Reserve Bin Cabernet
86 Hill of Grace Mag
88 St Henri
89 Grand Puy Lacoste
91 Wynns Centenary Mag
08 GC Creek Block, Penfolds RWT
13 and 14 to be provided on the night!!

been a Hawks fan forever, but I am cool if the Swans get up, I cannot remember a better side over the past 40 years, and it will be great for the game up North.

JamieBahrain wrote:Felix

Don't fear, you can load up on GC at Watsons in HKG! :

i'm over at harbour city in a few weeks, i'll have a look at Watson's up on the third floor there, they often stock Aus wines, won't be buying though, but interested in the price.

Gavin Trott wrote:Sigh

Getting bored now.

.

+2

Creek Block 2008

felixp wrote:we got a huge BBQ after the game on Saturday, drinking red wines from every vintage the Hawks have won. Happily, it seems the 2008 wine is the Greenock Creek Creek Block shiraz!!! Cool, I will post TN's here if I can remember what it tasted like the next day.
got the email on the wines to be sloshed:

61 Ducru Beaucaillou
71 Great Western Shiraz
76 Wendouree Shiraz (!!!)
78 Seaview Cab Sav (I don't think the winery exists any more)
83 Tahbilk Reserve Bin Cabernet
86 Hill of Grace Mag
88 St Henri
89 Grand Puy Lacoste
91 Wynns Centenary Mag
08 GC Creek Block, Penfolds RWT
13 and 14 to be provided on the night!!

been a Hawks fan forever, but I am cool if the Swans get up, I cannot remember a better side over the past 40 years, and it will be great for the game up North.

wineforlife wrote:

Gavin Trott wrote:Sigh

Getting bored now.

.

+1

+ another

Seven wrote:Creek Block 2008

felixp wrote:we got a huge BBQ after the game on Saturday, drinking red wines from every vintage the Hawks have won. Happily, it seems the 2008 wine is the Greenock Creek Creek Block shiraz!!! Cool, I will post TN's here if I can remember what it tasted like the next day.
got the email on the wines to be sloshed:

61 Ducru Beaucaillou
71 Great Western Shiraz
76 Wendouree Shiraz (!!!)
78 Seaview Cab Sav (I don't think the winery exists any more)
83 Tahbilk Reserve Bin Cabernet
86 Hill of Grace Mag
88 St Henri
89 Grand Puy Lacoste
91 Wynns Centenary Mag
08 GC Creek Block, Penfolds RWT
13 and 14 to be provided on the night!!

been a Hawks fan forever, but I am cool if the Swans get up, I cannot remember a better side over the past 40 years, and it will be great for the game up North.

Considering it hasn't been released since the 2005 vintage, someone must know the Waugh's very well. The '08 possibly may have been made but it was never released to the public. They held the '06 back but never ended up releasing it and haven't released one since. I spoke to Annabelle and she said there was a problem in the vineyard and wouldn't say much else. The popularity of the Creek Block took off after some amazing reviews by RPJ but the '05 was about 18% alcohol from memory. I have tried a couple of older ones and thought it to be a decent wine.

Cheers
Ian

Is it true that most of the Greenoch Creek wines are above 15% abv? I haven't seen the wine here - though that isn't to say it's not around somewhere - but if the alcohol level is that high I don't think I would pay top dollar for it. Those days are gone.

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Is it true that most of the Greenoch Creek wines are above 15% abv? I haven't seen the wine here - though that isn't to say it's not around somewhere - but if the alcohol level is that high I don't think I would pay top dollar for it. Those days are gone.

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud,

The Cabernet is always below 14% nowadays. I'm starting to form the opinion that it is the pick of the wines.

Cheers
Ian

Felix

The 76 Wendouree Shiraz a cracker- how'd your bottle go?

back in a hot, humid and very muggy Shenzhen now.

well, as they say, "oh what a night". When your beloved Hawks go into the game a (strangely) massive underdog, and the TAB is offering you $11.90 at +39.5, you empty your Tab account on it. When we eventually get back to my place after the game, I am clutching two bottles of 2008 Grange to add to the stash, as well as a pocket full of on-line cash hehehe
What was meant to be 20 ardent friends and Hawks supporters catered for at my place turned out to be 40, the additions allowed access only upon plonking two bottles of premiership wines on the dedicated wine bench. As expected, there were the cheapies who brought the 2013 and 2014 wines, I saw things like 2013 Dog Point sav blanc there, but I must admit to not trying them.

I also must admit to seeing the 08 Greenock Creek RR shiraz (yes, although the email said he was bringing a creek block) but I did nopt get a chance to try it
I can report, however, that it was immensely popular.

The two bottles of 61 Cos d'Estournel were both holding up well given their age, but each had a strange metallic finish that I did not particularly like, but again, they seemed to be very popular. A bottle of Ducru Beaucaillou present was corked and undrinkable.
There was also a bottle of 61 Brown Brothers Shiraz which was at least three decades past it.

The 71's provided some real highlights. A bottle of 71 Grange was in magnificent condition, but severely rationed as you might expect. 97 points for me.
A 71 Seppelts Great Western Shiraz was past it, but certainly not without interest.
Then there was an absolutely super bottle of 71 Mildara Cab Sav, a wine I have seen many times, but never even remotely approaching the quality of this bottle. Extraordinary, huge wine retaining structure and a little of the mint of it's famous older brother. Probably showing better than the Grange that night. 98 points.

A couple of 76 wines were enjoyable, very enjoyable, but not memorable. The 76 Wendouree Shiraz was a complete wine, tannins fully resolved, and a cuddly old bear. Kind of reminded me of those Baileys shiraz from the same era. Maybe 92points. The 76 Wynns Cab Sav was a more interesting proposition, clearly with time ahead of it. Too bad they invented the John Riddoch,. those old black labels are fantastic wines. 94points

The 78 Seaview Cab Sav was absolutely dead and buried. But a 78 Mt Edelstone Shiraz was indeed a memorable wine, even with half the cork floating in the bottle! Stunning in every way, actually made me wish I had not sold my considerable stash of 90's Mt Ed all those years ago. 97 points.
There were other 78's there, including a Grange, but i never got to taste them.

The 83 Tahbilk Special Bin Cab was alive and well, fully mature, but really not much more than an interesting look into old central victorian cabernet. Rather monolithic, certainly not complex. As they say, location location location! Maybe 89 points.
A magnum of 83 Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay appeared and was superb, holding up perfectly. Absolute treat. 95points

The 86 Hill of Grace was, incredibly, still too young, well in this magnum format, at least. Still displaying primary fruits and firm tannins, this might well be a wine for the ages, but i would hold on to any I have 95+
I saw other 86's, including a John Riddoch and a Pichon Lalande, but i didn't get to taste them.

The 88 St Henri suffered from poor storage, and was simply weird. A magnum of 88 Bannockburn Shiraz was pleasant, if nothing special.88points.

There was an absolute host of 89 Bordeaux there, being on the bloody BBQ I missed a taste of the 89 Haut Brion, but it seemed to be wine of the night to all those that actually did get to see it. The 89 Pichon Lalande was good, npot great, maybe 92points. Actually, I preferred the 89 Grand Puy Lacoste, which was a spectacular wine for a cheap old Bordeaux, 95 points.

A magnum of 91 Hill of Grace was amazing, easy 98 points for me, and maybe my favourite wine of the night. Incredible.
A 91 de Montille Volnay Taillepieds was rather drying and a bit coarse. Nup, 85points.

A bevy of 08's, as expected, the pick of the crop being the 08 Grange, which, whilst waaaay too young, was just superb, and as expected, very very popular. 98 points for me.
The only other 08 I tried was the 08 Penfolds RWT a wine I really liked, and will go and get some … 97 points. I also heard the Wolf Blass Platinum Shiraz was amazing, but I didn't try.

What a huge night, finished at 4am and only lost three Zalto's!!!!!!!!!!!

And Hawthorn?? well, let's face it, class and culture will always win out in the end

Thanks Felixp re the note about the 76 Wynns.
Have three of these and will drink the first one in 2016.

I take your point about the John Riddoch...love the wine even prepared to put up with the lesser vintages and yes there have been a few.
Think the whole Wynns range now has gone far to far...12 reds from the 2010 vintage...although with the near 1000 hectares of vines got to turn it into something.

Yes don't follow either team, but ridiculous odds for the Hawks...had a little wager too.

Cheers
Craig.

Thx Felix,

Yep, Henschke can really be something, unfortunately they know it too, and prices have risen accordingly and we are a few vintages away from Mt Ed being a $200 wine. I'm doing one last shared tasting of Hill of Grace, using my precious bottles of 86, 90, 92…..onwards for a definitive tasting for my wine friends in HKG. I did it once before and swore I'd never do it again, with a number of precocious young tasters leaving half full glasses of vintage HofG and over analyzing the moment instead of enjoying superb Australian wine that had been cellared perfectly since release ( essential for Henschke IMO ).

Interesting your thoughts on the 76 Wendouree and I dare say that excluding single vineyard Giacosa Barbarescos and the like, any foray into northern Italy by yourself will be met with disappointment. But anyways, speaking of class and culture, you are a train ride from it in Shenzen and if you can escape the boorish SHZ locals there are seats at our next tasting below next Thurs.

HKWS Vertical of Old Barbaresco (1961 to 1990)

Venue: The Langham Place Hotel
Thursday, Oct. 9th, 7pm

I am delighted to finally be able to schedule this tasting, bringing to HKWS members wines I have been collecting for a few years. We have some of the great vintages of Barbaresco; these Barbaresco producers are well-known: 4 of our wines come from the Produttori del Barbaresco, who only produce Barbaresco; the rest are from producers (mostly) better known for their Barolo: 2 from Giacomo Borgogno, 2 from Bersano, one from Oddero, and one from Gaja, the Costa Russi, contributed by Alan Kwok.

I thought it would be useful to reflect on the differences between Barbaresco and Barolo, so I have included 2 Barolos as points of comparison – a Rinaldi and a Bartolo Mascarello - each matched against a Barbaresco of the same vintage.
Once again, with these old wines, there are no great wines, only great bottles (pace Andre Simon). So let’s again cross our fingers and hope for the best. And last but not least, we have another splendid menu from chef Paul McLoughlin.

The cost of the evening is $2,000 per head.

Wines for tasting (2-bottle tasting) – note: the tasting order will be quite different

1. Bersano, Antico Podere Dei Conti della Cremosina, Barbaresco 1961
2. Giacomo Borgogno & Figli, Riserva, Barbaresco 1961
3. Bersano, Antico Podere Dei Conti della Cremosina, Barbaresco 1964
4. Produttori del Barbaresco, Barbaresco 1970
5. Oddero, La Morra, Barbaresco 1971
6. Francesco Rinaldi, Barolo 1971
7. Produttori del Barbaresco, Barbaresco Pora, Riserva, 1974
8. Produttori del Barbaresco Barbaresco Pora, Riserva, 1978
9. Giacomo Borgogno & Figli, Riserva, Barbaresco 1978
10. Angelo Gaja, Barbaresco Costa Russi 1986
11. Bartolo Mascarello, Barolo 1986
12. Produttori del Barbaresco, Barbaresco 1990

Dinner wines:
White wine: tba
Bersano, Cremosina, Cracked Waxed Capsule, Barbaresco 1964 Pinta [3.78l.]
Produttori del Barbaresco, Barbaresco Barbaresco 1970
Produttori Del Barbaresco, Barbaresco Pora, Riserva, Barbaresco 1978

Menu: proposed by chef Paul McLoughlin


Langoustine and crab, Caviar, asparagus, green pea, espelette powder & Oyster emulsion
Mushroom risotto with Lardo di Colonnata, Mascarpone, parmigiano reggiano
French des Landes Pigeon with Kiev croquette of confit pigeon leg, Roasted carrots, truffled cauliflower, swiss chard, licorice, Madeira pigeon jus
Raspberry sorbet, Macerated strawberries, yuzu custard, pistachios, meringue
Coffee or tea with Petits fours

That's $2000HKD so $300AUD too BTW.

Thanks Jamie,
would have loved to attend, but unfortunately I will be in Xiamen from next Wednesday until the following Monday grrrrrr … sounds like I organised a series of meetings at a very poor time.

yes, the boorish locals can be difficult at times, but in general nowhere near as difficult as the local expats!!!! The wine scene here is divided into two distinct groups, the more popular wine tasting groups that simply use the evenings to socialise and get pissed, hence cheepies aplenty such as Koonunga hill and generic ultra-cheap Bordeaux. The second lots of wine tasters are the uber-rich mainlanders, who think nothing of having a vertical of Latour/Le/Pin/Petrus or a horizontal of Bordeaux 61. I have been to a couple of the former, zzzzzz, and one of the latter, which was intimidating even for someone with my huge self-confidence

don't get me wrong, the Wendouree was a very good wine and very popular, but as you can see, a room full of delirious wine lovers who also happened to be ardent Hawthorn supporters resulted in a veritable treasure trove of wines. Unfortunately, as the host, I spent way too much time organising, BBQ cooking, and drinking celebratory beers, and ended up tasting less than half the wines on offer. My younger brother apparently has photos of all the bottles, I will try to get it off him as I am interested in exactly what I missed out on!! Many of the empty bottles were taken home as souvenirs of the night/day.

keep me ion mind next time you have a spare seat!!! always keen to fill it, and try your Italian gems.

wow, a little off topic, but this will get a laugh.
went with a mate up from Sydney to Hong Kong Golf Club today, just across border, so convenient, it used to be Royal Hong Kong pre 1997, so I still have reciprocal rights with my Royal Melbourne membership. Talking to the assistant pro, set-up now similar to the National in Victoria, you can buy and trade memberships. At the moment, the second hand market is selling individual memberships at HKGC for 12,000,000-13,000,000 HKD, with transfer fee of $2,900,000 HKD. So if you want to become a member, and there is a 2-3 year wait for membership transfer at the moment, it will set you back over TWO MILLION Australian dollars!!!!!
And, with the three courses at Fangling and one on the island, the total members numbers 5,800!!!!!!!!!!!
hmmm, 5,800 members each 2 million, makes the joint worth, conservatively, $11.6 billion AUD

Played the Old course, the one I like best, which was in great condition, as it should be as closed from today for the tournament coming up, reckon Jiminez will win it yet again, with Westwood second yet again hehehe

BTW, if you stay there, the food is great and the wine list incredibly cheap… e.g. Cos d'Estournel 2004 $100 AUD, good wine, 92points.

felixp wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:Felix

Don't fear, you can load up on GC at Watsons in HKG! :

i'm over at harbour city in a few weeks, i'll have a look at Watson's up on the third floor there, they often stock Aus wines, won't be buying though, but interested in the price.

i am in HKG for a couple of days and poked my nose into the branch of Watsons in the basement of the Citygate Outlets at Tung Chung while on a shopping trip. The vintages were still 2010 with the Alices at $HK398 and Apricot Block at $HK388 (with the Apricot Block discounted as part of an Australian promotion). A 2006 Roennfeldt Road cabernet was still hanging around at $HK2888. Btw, there was plenty of 2010 Penfolds St Henri but still at $A698 even on a promotion so I assume Watsons is not bargain territory.