The Barolo / Barbaresco / Nebbiolo thread

[Mivvy]

Thanks for the info on Fontanafredda - probably not on my buy again list but always interested to try nonetheless.

I like Marcarini which can be a bit of an underestimated producer and the wines do need a good 15 years to show their best. There is a fair amount of older stuff available in the US and the UK so I've been lucky enough to try a few mature vintages and it does retain its structure nicely.

Also would group the Produttori Riservas into a similar category but a notch above in terms of quality.

[Ian S]

Hi Mivvy
Don't ignore the 'normale' Barbaresco from the Produttori as well. Safety personified.
regards
Ian

[Chris H]

Excellent summary of Fontanafredda Ian.

Usual story of you get what you pay for. Their Barolos have been selling cheap here for a reason. People who are new to Italian wine think they are getting a bargain.

[winetastic]

Opened the last of my Brezza 'Santa Rosalina' Langhe Nebbiolo 2012 on Sunday - wish I had left the others until now, earlier in its life it was quite racy and very mineral dominant, however now the acid had softened somewhat and the fruit was a little more generous - delicious drinking and paired perfectly with turkey + cranberry sauce.

Opened another Olek Bondonio Langhe Nebbiolo 2015 as well - its young and tannic but such a great wine, constantly shifting in the glass, should have a long life ahead of it.

[Ozzie W]

Excellent summary of Fontanafredda Ian.

Usual story of you get what you pay for. Their Barolos have been selling cheap here for a reason. People who are new to Italian wine think they are getting a bargain.

Which producers that are sold in Australia do you recommend to avoid, either because they're substandard or offer a poor QPR?

[Chris H]

You could probably guess I'd say Prunotto. Underperformer. Hsven't had a good Pio Cesare either. At the other end of the scale, Gaja is great with long ageing but poor QPR (I have some so maybe I am dumb )

I didn't say avoid Fontanafredda, it is probably priced according to its quality. Alan Meadows says about Burgundy, but it applies generally : You may not get what you pay for, but you will never get what you don't pay for".

My opinion only of course.

[tarija]

Hsven't had a good Pio Cesare either.

I wonder how long the Pio Cesare Barolo and Barbaresco at DM are going to fester on the shelves for...seems like no one buys them. Still see 2006 bottles that have probably sat there for 6 years.

[winetastic]

Hsven't had a good Pio Cesare either.

I wonder how long the Pio Cesare Barolo and Barbaresco at DM are going to fester on the shelves for...seems like no one buys them. Still see 2006 bottles that have probably sat there for 6 years.

I purchased one of the 2006 single cru Pio Cesare Barbarescos from DM and it was fantastic.

Have had a couple of other Pio Cesare wines and they were decent but not super exciting.

Was a lovely place to visit on the other hand, the section of Roman wall running through the cellars was really cool.

[Ozzie W]

You could probably guess I'd say Prunotto. Underperformer. Hsven't had a good Pio Cesare either. At the other end of the scale, Gaja is great with long ageing but poor QPR (I have some so maybe I am dumb )

I didn't say avoid Fontanafredda, it is probably priced according to its quality. Alan Meadows says about Burgundy, but it applies generally : You may not get what you pay for, but you will never get what you don't pay for".

My opinion only of course.

Thanks. I'm still in the early stages of my Piedmont wine journey, but I'm slowly starting to get a feel for the styles of the various producers. I always enjoy reading this thread.

I've had very little from those 3 producers yet and only 1 bottle each of Fontanafredda (1999) and Pio Cesare (2009) currently in my cellar. Obviously my fellow offliners and those on this forum are steering me in the right direction.

Interestingly, one of my earlier Italian purchases was a 1986 Prunoto Barbaresco Montefestano which turned out to be a fantastic bottle, but that's apparently no longer representative of this producer.

[JamieBahrain]

BBQ neb's-

Magnum of Produttori 2010 was excellent as usual for this vintage. The Ghisolfi 2005 showing well with quite a bit of tannin bolted on to the high acidity. Di Gresy's 2005 Camp Gros was over-developed. The 1970 Prunotto Nebbiolo Riserva was cloudy, but was drinkable, though for the life of me I don't know why HKG friends obsess with older Piedmont when they should be hunting 1980's and beyond.

[brodie]

You could probably guess I'd say Prunotto. Underperformer..

I have had good luck with Prunottos from 1998/1999 and 2001. Bought on the cheap $40-$60 and have aged really well. For me a solid middle range producer, in these vintages anyway. I have not bought them since, so cannot comment on what they are like now. They were some of my early forays in Piedmont before I knew a lot about the producers. YMMV of course!

brodie

[Ian S]

Which producers that are sold in Australia do you recommend to avoid, either because they're substandard or offer a poor QPR?

I'm not sure if these are on the shelves, but as big names they probably are:
- Marchesi di Barolo, as mentioned above I think they became fat dumb and happy. I hope they sort themselves out, as we still have good memories, but they seem to be cruising on the name & also on the tourist dollar.
- Batasiolo. Too often seen in airport shops and other similar locations. Poor value IMO. Bava have a similar reputation but I've not tasted much myself.

Those are the only two I could say hand on heart that (style preferences aside), I can argue that quality is poor for the price.

Terre di Barolo are cheap and somewhat traditional, but the wines are quite lean and insubstantial outside the better vintages. Terradivino and Araldica less impressive still - very much in the 'you get what you pay for' territory - quite a bit less than the Fontanfredda.

Beyond that there is too much danger of me putting my style preferences ahead of even remotely objective advice so treat everything that follows as very much a personal opinion that others may see quite differently:

Whilst I might be unimpressed by Marchesi di Gresy, Massolino and Ceretto (for example), others are genuinely enthusiastic about each of them.

I also had some appalling bottles of Aldo Conterno Barolo (1997 Cicala and to a lesser extent 1998 Bussia Soprana, 3 bottles of each) from a period where they were experimenting. I went from a fan to where I am today, that I'm not a buyer. They were / are too much money to accept what those bottles turned out like and trust again. Others write that they are confident they learnt their lessons and current wines are good.

I've had decent bottles of Prunotto, but they aren't going to set the world alight. I think some of the disrespect is down to what the Tuscans have done with a famous Piemontese name.

regards
Ian

[winetastic]

Which producers that are sold in Australia do you recommend to avoid, either because they're substandard or offer a poor QPR?

Renato Corino (gross oaky nonsense)
Domenico Clerico (expensive gross oaky nonsense)

[JamieBahrain]

Prices at auction for Barolo can be excellent in Australia and I view it with some dismay considering the fashion of Northern Italy at the moment. Are Australian drinkers woefully tight? Which doesn't make sense considering the the expensive nature of Barolo and Barbaresco at retail. There was a 2010 Pietro Rinaldi Barolo at the Wickmans auction, with a best effort consideration of provenance stated, that was last seen at $51. Really ! Monvigliero is exciting to explore at the moment the local retail price is double this.

For estate planning, I have firm instructions to move my Italian cellar out of Australia for sale if need be.

Incidentally, there seems to be a lot of aversion to oak which I get. But I think the wines are rarely drunk with much age in Australia and the oak integration is problematic to long term with many nebbiolo. I've said it before, but time can heal seemingly excessive oak treatment in youth. In some instances, think of a Grange like run to maturity.

[Chris H]

Problem is not many drinkers want to wait 20+ years for maturity these days.

Anway back to a wine ......

2004 Giacomo Conterno Cascina Francia Monfortino
Decanted a couple of hours before drinking. Mid to deep red, no real bricking. Red fruits, faded roses, new leather, lovely complex nose and great to sniff. Tremendous length with fruit right to the end of the palate. Although relatively youthful it is drinking beautifully due to its finesse and balance.

[Ozzie W]

Thanks for all the tips guys.

Which producers that are sold in Australia do you recommend to avoid, either because they're substandard or offer a poor QPR?

Renato Corino (gross oaky nonsense)
Domenico Clerico (expensive gross oaky nonsense)

I do have a few bottles from Domenico Clerico in my cellar that I purchased at auction. The tasting notes on CellarTracker are very positive, hence the purchases. I think I'll open one to try for myself before I buy any more.

Prices at auction for Barolo can be excellent in Australia and I view it with some dismay considering the fashion of Northern Italy at the moment. Are Australian drinkers woefully tight? Which doesn't make sense considering the the expensive nature of Barolo and Barbaresco at retail. There was a 2010 Pietro Rinaldi Barolo at the Wickmans auction, with a best effort consideration of provenance stated, that was last seen at $51. Really ! Monvigliero is exciting to explore at the moment the local retail price is double this.

I've noticed that when looking at prices on wine-searcher. And not just for auction bottles, but also for new releases at retail level. Not always the case, but quite often. Italian wines still offering great value to Aussie buyers. Unlike Burgundy where everything is significantly more expensive here compared with overseas.

[Gary W]

The Pietro Rinaldi is imported by a local retailer. Price for 2010 Monvigliero was around $90 here (fully priced too). Very good wines too, agree. I ordered some of the 2010 (paid less than $90 I'm very sure).

[Ian S]

Incidentally, there seems to be a lot of aversion to oak which I get. But I think the wines are rarely drunk with much age in Australia and the oak integration is problematic to long term with many nebbiolo. I've said it before, but time can heal seemingly excessive oak treatment in youth. In some instances, think of a Grange like run to maturity.

I'm moderately tolerant of oak, so producers such as Moccagatta and Mauro Molino are perfectly ok (though I happen to much prefer the latter over the former, but I'd say the oak levels would be comparable). Some heavily oaked wines have aged badly in terms of a flavour profile I seek, which is of more delicate aromas than coffee/chocolate - i.e, excessive oak can obscure the aromatics which is a key element of Nebbiolo (at least for me - I could happily sniff a good one for many minutes before taking a sip).

My reservations extend to other elements of the modernists revolution, of picking riper / overripe to soften tannins, of short roto-fermentations to reduce tannin extract and to seek a more 'fruity' / bright fruit profile. Some of the experiments fell over stupidly young, and I suffered myself with the some pricey late 1990s era wines from a previously quite conservative producer. Once bitten, twice shy, but a half case that was barely-to-not drinkable makes me cautious. In many ways I wished the modernists had been forced to go the IGT route to establish their own track record for ageing / style at maturity.

The situation is never black and white though, even though the arguments suggested it. Few producers remain at the extremes of the modernist movement or the traditionalist old guard. Most have listened to each other and taken what works for them on-board.

regards
Ian

[JamieBahrain]

I've been fortunate to try many of the Barolo Boys wine, often side by side, back to their inaugural releases or change in direction and they've been pretty good to fantastic to be honest. So we are looking at the 30 year mark. Oak was supportive structurally, rarely noticable aromatically and tar and roses was often in the flavor profile.

It was Altare who said there are good and bad wines and indeed, simply, there are many winemakers who destroyed wine with oak though there have been just as many whose wines are plagued with unclean wine making.

I'm just not as fussed as many on the oak and prefer to make a call on a wine as opposed to a perceived style. Mascarello is a great example of this of had many of there wines back to the sixties and this icon can be incredibly variable about the era of the Barolo Boys and earlier.

Last night I drank high end Californian cab watching the 2016 AFL Grand Final. Couldn't wait to finish it. Good wine, but the passion is the Piedmont journey I'm on. So in light of this post, I've stood up a bunch of modernists for the week- Paulo Conterno, Clerico, Bruno Rocca, Cerreto. Will report further.

[Chris H]

Madoggiesfan wrote :

Last night I drank high end Californian cab watching the 2016 AFL Grand Final.

We could have told you the result a couple of months ago........

[winetastic]

Madoggiesfan wrote :

Last night I drank high end Californian cab watching the 2016 AFL Grand Final.

We could have told you the result a couple of months ago........

Indeed, but Nebbiolo from Piedmonte wins every time anyhow.

[Hunter]

Has anyone had much experience with Azelia and there reserve's ??
Cheers

[JamieBahrain]

Pelissero Barbaresco "Tulin" 2011- Old vines from the Treiso area though I found it hard to source the story of why it went from the Annata label to Tuilin.

A tamed, modernist expression of Barbaresco, clever and international in style. Mixed up the oak somewhat between French barrique and larger botti. Lifted, ripe red-cherry, baking spices, typically ferrous minerality prior darker violet-extracted berry fruits in spice. Appealing texturally with great depth, vintage ripeness and crafted balance with firm ripe tannins . Oak won't appeal to all, though I found it well measured and will do well with time. Gratifying Barbaresco.

93pts+

[Ian S]

Has anyone had much experience with Azelia and there reserve's ??
Cheers

Sorry no, indeed I'm not sure I've even tasted any. I do remember considering a bid at auction a couple of years ago, and think that's the closest I've got to them!

[Ian S]

Hi Jamie
My first thought for the name change, is the relatively recent tweaks to the DOCG rules on use of vineyard names, specifically:
- Only officially listed SV names can be used to denote a single vineyard bottling
- Banning of naming vineyards when the wine is a blend across two or more official vineyards (e.g. G. Rinaldi Brunate - Le Coste).

That latter change particularly galling for producers who own a parcel spanning the (at times arbitrary) border between two official Cru

In addition, a few producers struggled with the additional bureaucracy, and for a single vintage effectively had to downgrade to an un-named riserva, because the paperwork didn't get sorted properly

regards
Ian

[Mivvy]

Has anyone had much experience with Azelia and there reserve's ??

I've tasted some of the Cru's and have a few, although not had the Riserva Voghera Brea. I like the wines, Bricco Fiasco tends to be brighter, medium bodied, the Margheria and San Rocco are darker fruited, bigger scaled wines. Margheria and base Barolo aged in botte the others in barrique although I don't consider them particularly oaky.

[Hunter]

Thanks mivvy

[Dragzworthy]

Hello
Anyone tried Brezza Barolo and Nebbiolo? I buy it a bit here and like the Barolo, Barbera but I'm not a huge fan of their Langhe. Overall seems to be a less well known producer but I like their stuff.

[winetastic]

Hello
Anyone tried Brezza Barolo and Nebbiolo? I buy it a bit here and like the Barolo, Barbera but I'm not a huge fan of their Langhe. Overall seems to be a less well known producer but I like their stuff.

I have had a bunch of their Langhe Nebbiolo, and had the pleasure of a few bottles of their Barolos (while staying at their hotel) plus many tastings. My favorite of their range while staying there was the Cannubi, however at a subsequent tasting here in Australia I was blown away by the 2012 Sarmassa.

The house style is generally leaner on the fruit weight, more in the red fruit spectrum (cranberry, red cherry) and has loads of mineral character. The Langhe Nebbiolos need some time in bottle for the acid to soften before they start showing their best, for example I think the 2012 is barely entering its drinking window.

I actually picked up a bottle of their standard 2000 Barolo at auction last night - cant wait to pop it.

[JamieBahrain]

Azelia is very good and the oak has come off a bit and has been criticism from some friends in the past. I did find one vintage annoying though do remember their riserva is aged in big barrels whereas some of the other Cru's in smaller barrique.

We had a dinner with the son at Bovio restaurant in La Morra and it was on for young and old- all their old stuff was coming out and it excelled beyond by expereince with some adolsecent, blocky-oak Margheria. Alas, our bus driver tapped me on the shoulder and said he was out of duty hours and our night cut short despite my pleas for an extension.

Brezza is an interesting producer. I hosted a lunch, Cannubi versus Sarmassa at their winery-restaurant in Barolo proper. Sarmassa is underrated however, my good local friend gave me the local opinion of the winery which was one of frustrating inconsistency, brilliant one vintage, often and off-vintage, yet rubbish the next, possibly in even a lauded vintage. Seems to be on a rapid improve from recent snippets.

I have a magnum of 2009 Sarmassa on the tasting bench, will report further.

Ian, thanks for your response. I think you are right, digging up the Pelissero info' indicated a geo boundary but it got a little complex for me after the bottle.