The Auswine Forum

I dont want to get involved in the personal nature of the last few posts but I have to agree with the Red Bigot in at least one respect and that is that the higher alcohol content of red wines does actually do more to 'sooth and blend well with' the heat of hot Thai food. I spend some time in Thailand each year - partners brother and mother have lived there for a few years - and have tried both red and white with local hot thai food. The reds definitely do work better with the food than higher acid whites. Maybe its a palate thing, but I do know that Thais (at least males) will consume spirits with their meal, in much the same way as the japanese.

Craig, you are (once again) confusing your opinion with my reality, not that I really care, but you seem to want to denigrate what is a perfectly valid alternative for a substantial number of people just because you can't comprehend it. And quoting a random unattributed Google-sourced quote reinforces my position.

Tonight we had a 1996 Water Wheel Shiraz and a 2002 Ingoldby Shiraz with some fairly authentic Thai (and one Burmese dish). Neither very tannic both a good match and enjoyed by the 7 people dining together.

I don't need your gratuitous and insulting advice on relaxing either, please refrain from such in future.

JohnP wrote:I dont want to get involved in the personal nature of the last few posts but I have to agree with the Red Bigot in at least one respect and that is that the higher alcohol content of red wines does actually do more to 'sooth and blend well with' the heat of hot Thai food. I spend some time in Thailand each year - partners brother and mother have lived there for a few years - and have tried both red and white with local hot thai food. The reds definitely do work better with the food than higher acid whites. Maybe its a palate thing, but I do know that Thais (at least males) will consume spirits with their meal, in much the same way as the japanese.

Yeah, many Thais drink whisky and ice/water/soda with meals. Many newly-affluent Asians drink red with food, partly because they believe the press (and maybe advertising) material about red wine having more health benefits than white wine.
Actually a nicely mature Cabernet is a brilliant match with a lot of Chinese food too.

This one is quite good too

"My own range of wines to drink with spicy food can be summed up in one word - REFRESHING - a refreshing alternative to a cold gas injected lager.

First, the wines are all naturally semi-sparkling. Carbon Dioxide enhances taste and adds natural acidity when dissolved thereby adds to the mouth watering feel. But a fully sparkling wine or beer has too much gas and lager has gas injected producing large bubbles leading to bloating with food.

Second, drink the wine cool to ice-bucket cold – So thirst quenching like a cold lager.

Third, a refreshing wine also should have a good level of mouth-watering acidity. Think lemon juice – the classic Indian “Nimboo Pani”.

Fourth, avoid mouth-drying tannin. Whilst tea is drunk in India with food, the tannin is softened with milk and sugar. Furthermore, tannin in both wine and tea is exaggerated at low temperatures.

Fifth, the wines are also free from oak, which clashes with spices such as cumin, coriander and ginger giving a bitter, harsh after-taste.

Sixth, moderate alcohol; a good degree of alcohol is required to provide body but excess alcohol over 12.5% can add to the burning sensation of chillies. Take a sip of vodka before and after biting into a chilli to feel this. Furthermore, the wines are so moreish that you will find yourself drinking quite a bit.

Finally aromatics, fruitiness and sweetness in the range rise in relation to the chilli heat of the accompanying dish. This is based on my Goan Grandmother’s trick of adding some sugar to an over hot curry. Suck on a sweet before and after biting into a chilli to feel this. But unlike some wines such as 100% Gewurztraminer or Muscat which can be over-aromatic and too flowery and sickly after a glass, all of these wines are balanced with natural acidity and are refreshingly sparkling. And because acidity offsets sweetness and sparkling wines have enhanced acidity because of the dissolved CO2, the Off Dry wines result in a quite dry mouth feel after allowing for acidity and spice.

rgds

Warren Edwardes, founder-ceo , Wine for Spice, London"

Been a while since we've had a good Red Bigot vs Craig NZ stoush...

Wizz wrote:Been a while since we've had a good Red Bigot vs Craig NZ stoush...

Must be time to mention his perverse insistence on a 109pt scoring system. That's sort of what I was hinting at in "master of ignoring what most people would suggest."

Craig(NZ) wrote:This one is quite good too

"My own range of wines to drink with spicy food can be summed up in one word - REFRESHING - a refreshing alternative to a cold gas injected lager.

First, the wines are all naturally semi-sparkling. Carbon Dioxide enhances taste and adds natural acidity when dissolved thereby adds to the mouth watering feel. But a fully sparkling wine or beer has too much gas and lager has gas injected producing large bubbles leading to bloating with food.

Second, drink the wine cool to ice-bucket cold – So thirst quenching like a cold lager.

Third, a refreshing wine also should have a good level of mouth-watering acidity. Think lemon juice – the classic Indian “Nimboo Pani”.

Fourth, avoid mouth-drying tannin. Whilst tea is drunk in India with food, the tannin is softened with milk and sugar. Furthermore, tannin in both wine and tea is exaggerated at low temperatures.

Fifth, the wines are also free from oak, which clashes with spices such as cumin, coriander and ginger giving a bitter, harsh after-taste.

Sixth, moderate alcohol; a good degree of alcohol is required to provide body but excess alcohol over 12.5% can add to the burning sensation of chillies. Take a sip of vodka before and after biting into a chilli to feel this. Furthermore, the wines are so moreish that you will find yourself drinking quite a bit.

Finally aromatics, fruitiness and sweetness in the range rise in relation to the chilli heat of the accompanying dish. This is based on my Goan Grandmother’s trick of adding some sugar to an over hot curry. Suck on a sweet before and after biting into a chilli to feel this. But unlike some wines such as 100% Gewurztraminer or Muscat which can be over-aromatic and too flowery and sickly after a glass, all of these wines are balanced with natural acidity and are refreshingly sparkling. And because acidity offsets sweetness and sparkling wines have enhanced acidity because of the dissolved CO2, the Off Dry wines result in a quite dry mouth feel after allowing for acidity and spice.

rgds

Warren Edwardes, founder-ceo , Wine for Spice, London"

I'm thankful that you don't read a lot of my posts, just as I don't read a lot of yours, or you may have noticed I have on many occasions indicated and agreed that tannic/oaky shiraz (and many, particularly young, cabernets) don't work well with spicy food. Here in Aus we are blessed with many sweet-fruited, soft-tannin, low-oak but balanced shiraz that are actually well suited to spicy food and a bit of age does wonders for many of the more tannic ones.

now i know i'm not alone in having red wine with spicy food - i remember telling my mates on how i enjoyed some fruity shiraz with laksa - and i sensed a few cringes...

kwattro wrote:now i know i'm not alone in having red wine with spicy food - i remember telling my mates on how i enjoyed some fruity shiraz with laksa - and i sensed a few cringes...

There are more of us out there than a lot of people think or seem to want to believe.

Must be time to mention his perverse insistence on a 109pt scoring system.

Brian.

Just think a moment. The Americans havent even got around to adopting the metric system yet. These things take time you know. One day everyone will move to the 109 point system. Even the pied piper himself Mer Parker is already showing his deep inner desire to go there by awarding 100+ points to a wine.

Im sure the first person to move from the 20 point system to the 100 point system received the same uninformed criticism. But now we see the remaining old timers moving to 100 point systems. The world doesnt sit still.

Its a price I have to pay for being a leader not a lemming. I certainly know how old max felt in the early grange years But I will take this vital burden on my shoulders for the good of all humanity

One day they may even knight me for my services to the number 109 that is if I can brush off the challenge from the most evil of competitors; the 1000 point scale as formulated in the below link. Im pretty sure I have it covered though as 109 is a prime number, 1000 is not.

http://www.worldsofwine.com/articles/000146.html

Craig(NZ) wrote:If it doesn't I wouldnt worry, you arent alone and I don't think you would score highly in a Sommelier exam for that suggestion

On the contrary, you would do well matching a shiraz with spiced foods... And we're not talking red hot curries here, just 'spiced' foods. Few wines (if any) pair with overtly hot and ridiculously spiced dishes. A good chef wouldn't make a dish that poorly anyway.

You can match whites all you want with thai food etc, but what if a guest wants a red? What then?

Shiraz or tempranillo it is, without a question in my mind... then matched accordingly to personal palate of the guest, within the boundaries of those varietals. I've never missed a beat with that pairing.

Craig(NZ) wrote:

Must be time to mention his perverse insistence on a 109pt scoring system.

Its a price I have to pay for being a leader not a lemming. I certainly know how old max felt in the early grange years But I will take this vital burden on my shoulders for the good of all humanity

One day they may even knight me for my services to the number 109

Precisely - Shiraz and Spicy food, leader not lemming.

Yeah and one day I'll get a wine industry award for promoting Aus Shiraz with spicy Asian food, especially if I start to also promote mature cabernet with Chinese food too.

Daniel Jess wrote: Few wines (if any) pair with overtly hot and ridiculously spiced dishes. A good chef wouldn't make a dish that poorly anyway.

One person's pain is anothers pleasure. Most Thai food actually isn't all that chilli-hot, but some of them are very confronting to the non-addicted. It's not a poor chef who can make a searingly hot dish with impeccable balance of the other components, to those who have a tolerance to chilli heat it is a very clear heat, all the other flavours are still there.

In the mid-70's I learned that lesson when I had 7/8ths of an Indian chilli-crab entree at the then-famous Shalimar restaurant in Canberra. Searing heat and yet all the delicate fresh crab meat flavours were prominent. None of the other 7 people could cope with it, yet it was considered one of the signature dishes of the restaurant for people that could cope.

Repeating myself, there are some mind-blowing and surprising matches, a bottle of 2002 Warrabilla Parola's Durif, about 17% a/v, drunk with a selection of southern-Thai market curries in Surat Thani a few years back. The wine didn't last long, the four Thai people couldn't get enough of it, it was just the most amazing match.

You can match whites all you want with thai food etc, but what if a guest wants a red? What then?

tell them to get %$#%$d

What is all this?? As I said if you want a shiraz have a shiraz. My point was the more 'normal', 'standard' reply is gw, pinot gris, off dry riesling (and it appears sparkling too)

I was adding to RB's opinion. Jeez screw me over and feed me to the dogs if i dont like shiraz with thai but i can guarantee im not the only one.

I do like it with chocolate though. Im sure some would find that strange!

Hi guys,

My 2c worth.

I really think it depends on the spiciness of the food, and by that, I don't mean the exotic nature of thai/malaysian/indian/moroccan food, but rather the chilli/heat content.

If mildly chilli hot, I agree that a rich, fruity, spicy shiraz may complement, but if it is the type of chilli heat that you pay for the next day, then I think you are only doing yourself a world of harm eating it with a spicy shiraz.

I have tried, and the issues I have are that firstly, your palate is too shot to appreciate the wine, and secondlly, the belly churns extra hard with the big red on board.

My personal preference is actually a really rich, malty ale, or a stout to go with spicy, chilli hot meals.

Cheers,

Monghead.

Craig(NZ) wrote:What is all this?? As I said if you want a shiraz have a shiraz. My point was the more 'normal', 'standard' reply is gw, pinot gris, off dry riesling (and it appears sparkling too)

Ease up tiger, I wasn't on the offence there! I did feel the need to defend what we training sommeliers believe regarding red matches to spiced foods, however. Beyond that, drink whatever the hell you want

monghead wrote:If mildly chilli hot, I agree that a rich, fruity, spicy shiraz may complement, but if it is the type of chilli heat that you pay for the next day, then I think you are only doing yourself a world of harm eating it with a spicy shiraz.
I have tried, and the issues I have are that firstly, your palate is too shot to appreciate the wine, and secondlly, the belly churns extra hard with the big red on board.

My personal preference is actually a really rich, malty ale, or a stout to go with spicy, chilli hot meals.

Cheers,

Monghead.

Practice make perfect. When some of my wine-tasting group started going regularly to a Thai restaurant for dinner after our weekly tasting, some were initially complaining about the heat. After some months many of these same people are complaining when I don't order enough of the hot dishes or the chef forgets who it is she is cooking for and makes it a bit mild. The key to getting authentic spicing of the food at this restaurant is to say "we want it like Brian and Andrea have it" when ordering.

I think the ale or stout might make the belly churn even more. I tried a Guinness (bottled) in KL with Malay food once, not realising it was a local version. Sweet molasses, I couldn't drink it.

Craig(NZ) wrote:

You can match whites all you want with thai food etc, but what if a guest wants a red? What then?

tell them to get %$#%$d

What is all this?? As I said if you want a shiraz have a shiraz. My point was the more 'normal', 'standard' reply is gw, pinot gris, off dry riesling (and it appears sparkling too)

Mmm, sparkling shiraz works too!

actually after all that i have to confess that the wisest among us is monghead

when going to a thai restaurant (which i dont of my choosing as ive gone off the stuff) i usually dont bother taking wine. i drink beer. if wine is considered i usually only bother with a cheap and cheerful white. i never take anything flash

Red Bigot wrote:

kwattro wrote:now i know i'm not alone in having red wine with spicy food - i remember telling my mates on how i enjoyed some fruity shiraz with laksa - and i sensed a few cringes...

There are more of us out there than a lot of people think or seem to want to believe.

Yes many more, my wife and I are in a similar league to Brian and Andrea when it comes to hot food, and we always drink it with Shiraz or Durif. We have other like minded friends as well.

Glen

Mmm, sparkling shiraz works too!

was just talking sparkling shiraz with someone here yesterday. it just doesnt feature in kiwi consciousness. i love it with xmas dinner

lordson wrote:thats bloody awesome!

i came to the conclusion of no shiraz with spicy food, by experimenting, because i was eating it with spicy food and it didn't do too well at all

feel just that little more accomplished now

i reckon shiraz will go good with something really flavoursome, something gamey like lamb or a good steak

Well played sir, 96/100.

Shiraz appears to be an excellent match to a good flame war

Red Bigot wrote:

Wizz wrote:Been a while since we've had a good Red Bigot vs Craig NZ stoush...

Must be time to mention his perverse insistence on a 109pt scoring system. That's sort of what I was hinting at in "master of ignoring what most people would suggest."

9 extra points just for being NZ

Blue wrote:

Red Bigot wrote:

Wizz wrote:Been a while since we've had a good Red Bigot vs Craig NZ stoush...

Must be time to mention his perverse insistence on a 109pt scoring system. That's sort of what I was hinting at in "master of ignoring what most people would suggest."

9 extra points just for being NZ

Using the AUD-NZD exchange rate, 109 converts to 89, which is also a prime number. Maybe Craig started his new system back in July 2007, when 109NZD would have bought 100AUD.

Using the AUD-NZD exchange rate, 109 converts to 89, which is also a prime number. Maybe Craig started his new system back in July 2007, when 109NZD would have bought 100AUD.

Close but not quite. NZ even given the weaker dollar is still the cheapest and easiest place in the world to buy great Australian wine. Sux to pay your excise tax thats for sure

So the actual equation is:

For every 89 bottles of Grange for sale in sydney there is 109 bottles collecting dust on supermarket shelves here in Auckland at a fraction of the price

Craig(NZ) wrote:

Tannic wines can fuel the fire of spicy Thai dishes: As delicious as they are, highly tannic red wines such as Cabernet Sauvignon, Shiraz, Bordeaux and Barolo can be difficult to enjoy with spicy Thai cuisine. The wine’s warm temperature, alcohol content and mouth-puckering quality can exacerbate the heat of already spicy dishes.

Not all of us think that's a bad thing.
I drink Shiraz with Thai without any problems.
then again I love plenty of heat in my thai food.
I suspect Brian is probably the same

Which reinforces his advice to forget what 'most people' say and drink whatever you feel works for you

It's amusing how this thread has evolved.

Lordson, whoever you are, part of me will miss you when you're gone

Chiming on a topic near & dear to my heart, shiraz has generally been my weapon of choice to match to the heartier Thai dishes.

And travels through Thailand last year reveal that I'm not Robinson Crusoe in that decision - Australian reds in most restaurants, but I was doubly delighted to discover a locally grown Thai shiraz that matched up nicely. Name escapes me entirely, but I'll fetch it and contribute later on.

Another Thai tip was the chilling of the reds. Freaked us out on first few sightings, but many was the hot night when it made some sense.

via collins wrote:Chiming on a topic near & dear to my heart, shiraz has generally been my weapon of choice to match to the heartier Thai dishes.

And travels through Thailand last year reveal that I'm not Robinson Crusoe in that decision - Australian reds in most restaurants, but I was doubly delighted to discover a locally grown Thai shiraz that matched up nicely. Name escapes me entirely, but I'll fetch it and contribute later on.

Another Thai tip was the chilling of the reds. Freaked us out on first few sightings, but many was the hot night when it made some sense.

It's interesting to see what flushes out a lurker, welcome.

Our Thai friends in Bangkok have a large fridge (I think with a modified temp control) full of Aus red wine. They installed an airconditioner in their living area, but it's only turned on when people are there having red wine!

The trick is to keep the wine in a cooler bag, pour small serves at a time and let it warm up in the glass, unless in an aircon restaurant.

We've carted Aus Shiraz all over Thailand, here's one on some jungle rafts in the Khao Sok National park down in Surat Thani province:
and one on Koh Samui:

moderator please shift this man to the food and wine forum