The Auswine Forum

LL thanks for that info. I understand what you say with "you get what you pay for".

However where do I go from here? Should I leave what I have in the barrel at the moment to act as a seasoning agent on the oak or should I replace the contents some quality young fortified now?

I suppose I am worried that if I replace what I have at the moment, the new port will also be affected by the newness of the barrel?

I am from Wangaratta so there is no problem with going to Rutherglen to find an appropriate port.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian

LiebichWein's (mentioned above) winemaker, Ron, can have a look at a sample of your fortified and 'diagnose' the best way to improve it.

best give him a call first to prearrange a time.

cheers

interesting post. does anyone have some bulk port recommendations from wineries in Western Australia? The only two I know of that may offer bulk port are Pinelly and Highway Wines.

I got my barrel from yalumba and have been adding all the families birth dates into it, so far 1947 thats dads from seppeltsfield,64 My wifes from orlando,67 Brothers orlando ,68 Mine yalumba (a bit of wine ),90 my sons,96 my daughters and 99 was some fortified shiraz from d'arenburg and a little brandy to pep it up . There are some others in there to help fill it like wynns samuels port,and some from w.a like houghtons etc i wouldnt be with out one now even in w.a

Hi All

I stumbled onto this thread and subsequent forum because I have been researching port barrels. Basically I have just inherited a port barrel - and to say that I am new to port is a bit of an understatement. My only real exposure has been to Penfolds Grandfather port, and a few other vintage ports.

That said, my partners father passed on to me his old port barrel that he hadn't used for about 15 years. I have a few questions that I hope some of the more experienced users can help me on:

1) He told me that I need to 'revive' the barrel. Anybody have any experience doing this with a used barrel? I suspect that I would need to wash it and maybe the brass tap, but should I use any chemicals or anything?

2) What should I be putting into the barrel? Like I said, my only experience with port is outlined above. I believe that I have only had tawney port, and an earlier user said not to use tawney port. So what should I use then?

3) What is the idea behind the barrel? Are you supposed to make a blend or should you just stick to the one type of port? Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Make a trip to Liebichwein in the barossa with your barrel (perhaps pre-book), and Ron will help you with it

Scanlon wrote:Make a trip to Liebichwein in the barossa with your barrel (perhaps pre-book), and Ron will help you with it

Hi Scanlon, thanks for the speedy reply! I am located in Melbourne, so the Barossa might be a bit far... can somebody suggest somewhere in/near Melbourne (I am quite close to the Yarra Valley)?

keg factory has sold out

Nadalie , the french barrel company has bought them out !

get in quick for a port keg !!!!

yeah i was looking at this at one stage and found the folks at liebich are more than willing to help. they also recommended the keg factory. bit of a bugger that they have been bought out.

CHECKstar wrote:

Scanlon wrote:Make a trip to Liebichwein in the barossa with your barrel (perhaps pre-book), and Ron will help you with it

Hi Scanlon, thanks for the speedy reply! I am located in Melbourne, so the Barossa might be a bit far... can somebody suggest somewhere in/near Melbourne (I am quite close to the Yarra Valley)?

I am asking around...

All I have is Rutherglen..!

deleted

For some unknown reason to me I cant seem to get into the account I registered the other night (CHECKstar)...

Nevertheless, I think I may have some bad news. I did some research and it seems that port barrels should not be left dry for more then 24 hours since they will form gaps. There is a chance that it might not, so I was told to fill it with boiling water to check for leaks. Unfortunately, there seems to be a bit of seepage of water coming out the front (only slightly, however it still appears to be leaking).

I am going to keep filling it with hot water each night for a week or so and hope that the wood will expand, but if not, it seems that it may have kicked the bucket.

I will keep you all posted (assuming I can log in!)

Could anyone please tell me if the keg factory still makes good barrels under the new owners? If not could anyone please recommend anyone else in SA?

New owners same Coopers. Still the best keg on the market.

Daz C wrote:For some unknown reason to me I cant seem to get into the account I registered the other night (CHECKstar)...

Nevertheless, I think I may have some bad news. I did some research and it seems that port barrels should not be left dry for more then 24 hours since they will form gaps. There is a chance that it might not, so I was told to fill it with boiling water to check for leaks. Unfortunately, there seems to be a bit of seepage of water coming out the front (only slightly, however it still appears to be leaking).

I am going to keep filling it with hot water each night for a week or so and hope that the wood will expand, but if not, it seems that it may have kicked the bucket.

I will keep you all posted (assuming I can log in!)

Has your port barrel come good

Just to update people, its been close to 12 months since I purchased my Keg!

Its been fantastic, I have kept it topped up at all times even when drinking a fair bit out of it I never leave it bellow the three quarter mark. My port is amazing, mellow and mature tasting. I have put quite a few different ports in, but I do not put in anything less than Morris Black bottle now. so its not cheap to keep going, but it is producing the most lucious flavours.

The difference between Morris black bottle when it first goes in and to what the taste is when it comes out is fantastic.

===================================
My greatest tips for people starting out are.... BUY A GOOD KEG LOCALLY FROM A SKILLED COOPER.

1. Do the rince cycles with water over a 24 - 48 hour period after getting a fresh fired keg. Fill the barrel and empty it about 3 times over this period. The last time rince it thoroughly shaking out all the crap from the firing and machining you can.

2. Get some brandy (black bottle is fine) and pour a generous amount (100mls) in, and put the cork in and shake it around. The sad part is then you pour it out. (you can drink it if you like, lol)

3. Get cheap bulk port (that you think tastes nice) and fill your keg and leave it for atleast 2-3 months.

4. Everytime you drink some port make sure you put some port back in. The bigger the keg you have the more bulk port to cheap bottle port ratio you can do. (if that makes sense)

5. Dont let your keg go bellow half way, try and keep it around the 3/4 mark (although this would be harder for people with smaller kegs)
===================================
You should note im not a big person on experimentation with adding crazy flavours like cinamon stick and fruits etc. Some people like it but all the experiments of friends that I have tried do not taste as good as my own.

I should also mention that I found some cheap $6 bottle cleanskin port at one of the large retailers. I tasted it and it was very mature and very oaky. I know that my barrel dosnt give off as much oak as it did when I first started, so I pour one of these in every now and again to give it a bit of a boost.

I have had no trouble what so ever from my Keg, the coopers at the Keg Factory did a fantastic job!

Sad news, Don the head keg and wine rack maker with the Keg Factory passed away on Saturday. RIP.....

I’ve recently started off 2 x 20L barrels myself, one for port, and one for tokay, and just posting some info that I have found out as it may be of help to others on here. Most of this info was obtained from Liebich, The Keg Factory, and Chambers.

* Start with a good quality oak barrel, recommend one made from old oak from a fortified or spirit barrel, (not one used for red wine).

* A small barrel ages 3 times faster than a normal hogshead size so you would have a great port in 3 years.

* It is recommended to start with a good quality ruby port blended with some older tawny for quicker aging. (I was advised by Liebich to add 50ml only of their old rancio material (from their grandfather barrel aging since the 1940’s) to the young base port). Note that 50ml in 20L doesn’t seem like much, but the difference it made was quite obvious when tasting it. A small amount of aged material seems to go a long way.

* Liebich recommend barrels from the Keg Factory. Both of my barrels are from there. Note that the Keg Factory has been running low on ‘old oak’ recently, so the only barrels of theirs that are made from ‘old oak’ (ie. 50-70yo oak from old fortified or sprit barrels) now are their ‘rustic’ kegs. All their other kegs are now made from old red wine barrels.

* Put the barrel in to use as soon as possible after receiving it. The wood will dry out and the hoops will come loose if it is empty for a prolonged period.

* Before initial use, rinse barrel clean and then fill with warm/hot water to swell the oak and create a tight seal. Leave overnight or up to 24hrs. Don’t leave water in the barrel for any longer than 24hrs as it will turn the barrel sour. Water only needs to be warm, not boiling hot. Some minor leaks may be evident initially, but should seal up within 24hrs.

* You can also use hot water to help remove excess wood flavours from the barrel. Re-fill with fresh water every 24hrs if doing this.

* After swelling the oak with water and ensuring there are no leaks, empty and put a litre of port (or whatever you intend to use the barrel for) in it and rotate barrel to get it to contact all surfaces. You can leave this port in it for a few days to absorb any excess oak flavours and remove any water remaining in the barrel. Then empty and refill with your desired fortified wine. Don’t fill barrel completely though. You need to leave some air space in the top on the barrel to allow for expansion. Don’t fill above the bottom of the bung either, as the bung will act as a wick and soak up the wine.

* To prevent the barrel drying out (which will cause it to leak) maintain the barrel at least half to three-quarters full.

* There’s no need to mix, or agitate the barrel when in use. The barrel is best left still, as this will allow any sediment to settle, giving you a clearer wine.

* American oak seems to be preferred to French oak for this purpose, as it’s supposed to be more watertight.

* I’ve had differing opinions regarding the usage of Metabisulphite in the wine. Ron from LiebichWein says it’s not necessary to add any, as the wine already contains sulphur. But information that I got from Chambers says that to maintain a healthy environment within the barrel that it’s necessary, once a year, or whenever topping up, to add Potassium (or Sodium) Metabisulphite to the barrel at the precise rate of 150mg per litre of the barrel capacity. I was told however that this is not so important if you are topping up the barrel regularly with fresh material, as the fresh material already contains a dose of sulphur in it. If leaving the barrel alone for a few years though, you’d need to add some Metabisulphite each year.


regards,
Bill

Funny you've just revived this thread Bill as I was just playing with my muscat barrel last night too. Thought I'd do an update on progress.

So I started my muscat barrel with a seasoned barrel from Stanton & Killeen in Rutherglen. They get their barrels from the Keg Factory, fill them and sell them already seasoned which makes it a bit easier. They tip their inital fill into their large barrels where the oak is not so obvious so it gives you a good head start. I started it in October 08 with bulk muscat from Morris. I did the overnight water fill and then cleaned it out a few times and filled it up with the bulk muscat which is the same as their liquor muscat they sell for around $11 a 750ml bottle. In bulk it's about $5 a litre.

We tried a little soon after filling it and it wasn't too bad. Over summer we probably drank at least one 750 ml bottle and I topped it back up with a Seppelt 750 ml bottle of their classic muscat. As the colder months approached, we drank a bit more and lately have been drinking quite a bit.

I'd been worrying that it's been getting a bit low so yesterday went and bought 4 bottles of Morris liquor muscat. Last night Lisa wanted a glass of muscat (as she often does) but I hadn't topped it up yet so she grabbed a glass from one of the new bottles. I suddenly realsied it was an opportunity to compare the old with the new so went downstairs and grabbed a glass from the barrel.

Putting them next to each other there is an immediate difference in the colour. The bottle muscat is an orange golden rust red colour and the barrel glass a brown red burnt orange colour much deeper and more opaque.

On the nose, the difference is quite significant. The bottle glass smells quite alcoholic and hot. There are raisens, toffee and a liquor orange or orange zesty sort of flavour. It is a bit astringent but has a good long finish. The barrel glass has a burnt butter, butterscotch sauce nose. There is also vanilla, maybe some ginger and a bit of that orange but not as intense. On the palate it is more malty and toffee and has a lot more depth of flavour and an even longer finish.

Typical line from Lisa, "I like your old stuff better than your new stuff."

So after all that I went down to the cellar to do the topping up. I poured three bottles straight in as I was pretty confident we had drunk at least that much recently. It was still a little way from the top so I put a 500 ml bottle of Morris Grand Muscat (which BTW, is an awesome muscat) in there and gave it a bit of a stir. I had a slurp of the Grand before throwing it in and it's like Ambrosia. Golden syrup and treacle and to die for! I then drew off 500 mls back into the Morris grand bottle for drinking this week. Then I put in the final 750 ml Morris liquor muscat and popped the bung back in. So it's all full again now and ready to go.

I really can't recommend this highly enough to those that love their fortifieds. It's very satisfying to see the difference between the newly bought stuff and the muscat from your own barrel. If you drink a lot of it each winter and use the bulk stuff direct from wineries, you'd be ahead in cost alone pretty quickly, particularly if you prefer the grands and rares. Mine's not quite to that standard yet but I'm confident in five or ten years, it's going to be pretty close with a small barrel and for everyday drinking, it's certainly a big step up from the classic and rutherglen levels.

Thanks for the summary Bill and the interesting update Kris.

I have been contemplating getting one of these for some time. I have read through the thread and can't find any observations about the temperature the barrel should be kept at. (I notice you are in Brisbane, Bill). Any thoughts on whether temperature/fluctuation is an issue. I have a feeling that the fortified nature means it will be more tolerant, but am not sure. My storage is not ideal but not the worst. Does the barrel need to be at cellar temps?

Any thoughts?

Michael

Hi Michael,

Not cellar temps. I was told by someone from Settlement Wines in McLaren Vale (who specialise in fortifieds) that the barrel is best kept in a fairly warm location. I asked him "how warm", and he replied "around 30degC", "but" he stressed "don't put the barrel in direct sunlight, as the wood will dry out".

I also remember hearing from someone from Seppeltfield saying that the barrels destined for the 100 year old program are kept in the warmest part of their cellar to encourage evaporation. I was also in Rutherglen recently and noticed the barrels just sitting in tin sheds. There's no air con or anything like that, and I hear that Rutherglen gets pretty hot in summer!

Anyway, Madeira wine is traditionally made by deliberately exposing the barrels to temps of up to 60degC, so obviously fortifieds can take a bit of abuse.

As to what are the ideal storage temps for different fortified wine styles though, that I don't know, and would like to know more about if anyone on here has any more info. But certainly normal room temps wouldn't pose a problem.

regards,
Bill

Bill wrote:Hi Michael,

I also remember hearing from someone from Seppeltfield saying that the barrels destined for the 100 year old program are kept in the warmest part of their cellar to encourage evaporation.regards,
Bill

The 100 yo barrels at Seppeltsfield are in the top floor of the building that contains their CD. Close above them is the un-insulated tin roof.

Thanks

Finally an advantage to not having a proper cellar!!

Cheers

Michael

Funny, just before I checkedin here I was looking at the seppeltsfield site as they've just released their 09 (1909) 100 year old port. And yes, there are pictures of where they keep it and it's described as their attic.

I keep mine in my cellar though but these comments are very interesting. It's a bit too heavy to move now and I don't really have storage anywhere else anyway.

bacchaebabe wrote:Funny, just before I checkedin here I was looking at the seppeltsfield site as they've just released their 09 (1909) 100 year old port. And yes, there are pictures of where they keep it and it's described as their attic.

I keep mine in my cellar though but these comments are very interesting. It's a bit too heavy to move now and I don't really have storage anywhere else anyway.

What size barrel do you have?

I’ve currently got mine stored in one of the warmest rooms of the house, against a north facing wall. It’s only been there for the last few months though, so a bit early to see how well it ages.

Seppeltfield have also released a new series of fortifieds, the ‘Paramount Collection’, of which the Tawny version contains various vintages of the 100yo in the blend. I tried this at the cellar door, and it’s pretty impressive stuff! It’s $349 for 500ml though, but that's much cheaper than the 100yo. I ordered a bottle.

…..The concentrated essence remaining in the final barrel after 100 years is carefully blended with selected aged tawny and a new solera created. This is the basis of the Paramount Collection XO Tawny. This wine has never before been released.

To keep Benno’s dream alive we have added small quantities of tawny from every vintage from 1878 to the current 100 year old. This will continue on May 1 each year, when the barrels in the solera will be blended with a portion of the current 100 year old Para Tawny.

An extremely limited quantity will be released each year.

Hi Bill, I've got a 20 Litre barrel. It was heavy enough when it was empty and the 20 litre container the muscat came in was also very heavy. I haven't tried moving it since I've filled it and don't want to.

I looked at the XO collection and was wondering what it was exactly. I noticed the rares are said to be started in 83 which I though was possibly not quite old enough for a rare. I thought in Rutherglen the rares generally had a base material of at least 50 years of age.

I only looked at the XO muscat but the XO tawny sounds very interesting indeed and really quite a bargain compared to the 100 year old. Saying that, the 100 year old really is my holy grail of wine and I do believe it's worth the money.

bacchaebabe wrote:I noticed the rares are said to be started in 83 which I though was possibly not quite old enough for a rare. I thought in Rutherglen the rares generally had a base material of at least 50 years of age.

I think they can technically call it 'Rare' if it's over 15 years old, but that seems silly to me. By comparison, All Saints 'Grand' is 20yo and their 'Rare' is 50yo. All Saints even have an 80yo muscat if you're willing to part with $1,000 (500ml).

HI folks - I'm brand new here but have digested the fine advice in this thread and have taken the plunge after more than 2 decades of waiting for my own barrel!javascript:emoticon(':D')

Purchased 14l keg from The Keg Factory and 15l bulk port from Leibich at Rowland Flat (Barossa). (On advice from Liebich went for blend of 1/3 Ron's 2/3 Keg)

Have seasoned per instructions and tonight put in the port. Now comes the really, really hard part of waiting for the keg to weave its magic. Advice I received is that I should notice a difference after 6 weeks but was wanting guidance from the "seasoned campaigners" out there on what a realistic minimum rest time for the port should be. Should I try to steel myself and not touch it for months?

I was concerned that the barrel may be from old red wine barrel stock but on the first rinse it was obvious the source barrel was a brandy barrel - very distinct brandy aroma. So I guess that I am off to a good start??!?

Advice from Liebich (not sure if it was Ron himself) was to wait 6-12 months for the keg to settle before really mucking around with any "additives". Also, whilst you can put in spirits it is best not to. I know it's a personal preference thing...but... my first real exposure to how fantastic a home keg can be was about 25yrs ago. The father of an ex-girlfriend had a 20l (at least) keg and the contents was like nectar. Hmm - mouth watering at the memory of how good it was. Anyway, he told me that he occasionally put in some Napoleon Brandy and brown sugar. (Bulk port he put in came from the Barossa also.) Is this a good or bad thing to be doing???

Cheers and thanks in advance for any feedback/advice,

Trev

TrevW wrote:Now comes the really, really hard part of waiting for the keg to weave its magic. Advice I received is that I should notice a difference after 6 weeks but was wanting guidance from the "seasoned campaigners" out there on what a realistic minimum rest time for the port should be. Should I try to steel myself and not touch it for months?

Yes, the waiting is the hard part. You should notice a difference after a month - not a big difference, but noticeable. My port barrel has only been going for about 5 months now. I have been having a little taste once a month just to check how it's going. Adding a small amount (around 30-40ml) of some really old gear will help kick it off and makes a noticeable difference to the taste.

TrevW wrote:Advice from Liebich (not sure if it was Ron himself) was to wait 6-12 months for the keg to settle before really mucking around with any "additives". Also, whilst you can put in spirits it is best not to. I know it's a personal preference thing...but... my first real exposure to how fantastic a home keg can be was about 25yrs ago. The father of an ex-girlfriend had a 20l (at least) keg and the contents was like nectar. Hmm - mouth watering at the memory of how good it was. Anyway, he told me that he occasionally put in some Napoleon Brandy and brown sugar. (Bulk port he put in came from the Barossa also.) Is this a good or bad thing to be doing???

At Settlement Wines, I was advised to occasionally add a small amount of a good quality brandy, however Ron Liebich advised not to do that as he said it would stuff the flavour. So I think it's more of a personal preference thing. Try adding a little brandy to a glass of port and see if you like the flavour or not. If you do, maybe just add a little, like a teaspoon full, to the barrel. If your barrel was originally used for brandy, then the wood will probably impart some of that brandy flavour to the port anyway.

Adding brown sugar?? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.