The Auswine Forum

Brucer wrote:There is one other winery in Rutherglen that makes wines at least as good as Smithys, and thats RL Buller. They make a shiraz called Calliope, and the current vintage is 02, but it may be close to sold out.

This wine should sit in your cellar alongside the Warrabillas.

Bruce

I would argue with the "at least as good as Smithys'". The Calliope, in very good years, yes. In most years Warrabilla wines are better wines the RLB.
My two bobs worth,
MM.

Anonymous wrote:just to add to my last post...
I've got nothing against Smithy or Warabilla. In fact, I really like the wines, and regularly buy them.

But this and the Star Forum consistantly seem to be a promtional website for Warabilla, and it is the exact thing I am am trying to get away from i.e. uninvited advertising, however subliminal.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

Well as far as I can see smithy has posted 54 times on *Forum since 5 March 2005 and 114 times here since December 2004 and many of those posts have been responses to various non-Warrabilla topics, including freely offering his knowledge and even getting some tips on new yeasts from a brewer! That means I strongly disagree with you, go and complain on *Forum about the promotional activities there and see how you fare. Oh, you'd have to sign in there, so you don't have the i.f. to do that.

This thread was started by someone enquiring about the wines promoted on another e-tailer with high "Nicks-scores". The responses from enthusiastic and happy customers (you even seem to be one) is testimony to the quality of the wines and the genuine warmth of the owners/winemaker.

There are very few wineries that generate this sort of response and loyalty and I for one am happy for smithy to espouse his style of big balanced reds, especially in the face of intense publicity from some quarters that "high alcohol is evil and to be avoided at all costs". For eaxmple, I used to think Ben Canaider was a reasonable wine journo until I saw a diatribe of his condemning just about any wine with 14% or more a/v. (Unfortunately didn't note the details of where I saw it.)

Undoubtedly there are many wines with high a/v that are "bad" wines (somebody buys them, maybe they even like them), but we shouldn't tar all high a/v wines with the same brush, it is possible to make good, cellaring wines that have a/v in the 15%-16% range or even higher at times. Warrabilla is one winery that does it consistently.

Smithy, stick around, don't be put off by anonymous riff-raff.

Thanks for the support guys.
We basically enjoy this site and the *site as we enjoy talking about wine.

We've got a lot out of it, met some great people through it, and had a lot of fun.
The last thing we want to do is abuse the site with cheesy marketing (which isn't us anyway), so sorry Mr Guest... you won't be putting us off!

cheers
Smithy

Anonymous wrote:

Brucer wrote:There is one other winery in Rutherglen that makes wines at least as good as Smithys, and thats RL Buller. They make a shiraz called Calliope, and the current vintage is 02, but it may be close to sold out.

This wine should sit in your cellar alongside the Warrabillas.

Bruce

I would argue with the "at least as good as Smithys'". The Calliope, in very good years, yes. In most years Warrabilla wines are better wines the RLB.
My two bobs worth,
MM.

MM and Bruce,

The 1962 Calliope Shiraz is a wine I don't think I'll ever forget, it had such a big impression on me as a 10yo red in 1972, it had such great balance, stunning fruit just starting to get into secondary characters, and a complete, silky mouthfeel that I was hooked on big reds forever. I have no idea of the a/v though.

What I've found with the Calliope though is that only about 1 year in 10 can they seem to repeat the same complete seamless package, the 91 is one of those, as you well know and I'm hoping the 2002 will be another.

Brian

As you are probably aware, I dislike high alcohol when it is poorly done (ie. sticks out of the wine). Unfortunately a lot of wines over 14% fall into this category for me, including the 2002 Calliope (we will agree to disagree on that one).

The point of the post is that I wonder how Andrew achieves balance when so many others don't. The Warrabilla wines tend to be pretty powerful to taste so you can probably guess that have a fair bit of alcohol in them without looking at the label, but it always seems to be part of the wine and not sticking out at all. Another example that jumps in to my head is Moss Wood Cabernet - the alochol level has risen considerably over the years (12.5 to 14 for example) but again, the wine is in balance and does not taste hot.

Maybe Andrew can shed some light on how it is done properly ?

ChrisH wrote:Brian

As you are probably aware, I dislike high alcohol when it is poorly done (ie. sticks out of the wine). Unfortunately a lot of wines over 14% fall into this category for me, including the 2002 Calliope (we will agree to disagree on that one).

No probs Chris, JO didn't like it either, so you are in good company. I suspect being a long-time drinker of Cognac/Armagnac/Malt Whisky makes me more tolerant of even those high a/v reds that aren't as balanced as the Warrabillas.

ChrisH wrote:Brian

The point of the post is that I wonder how Andrew achieves balance when so many others don't. The Warrabilla wines tend to be pretty powerful to taste so you can probably guess that have a fair bit of alcohol in them without looking at the label, but it always seems to be part of the wine and not sticking out at all. Another example that jumps in to my head is Moss Wood Cabernet - the alochol level has risen considerably over the years (12.5 to 14 for example) but again, the wine is in balance and does not taste hot.

Maybe Andrew can shed some light on how it is done properly ?

If I was Andrew I'd be keeping the secret to myself, or charging a decent consulting fee for the information.

Sorry to be horrifically boring guys.
The only secret to having big wines not seem hot is to have everything in balance.

ie Big alcohol, big fruit, lots of tannin (all natural) and lots of acid.
our pH's are among the lowest in the North East which makes them seem fresher and more lively. We also bottle way earlier than most, and use Puncheons rather than Hogsheads because the wines age so much slower in them.
Like the bigger barrells but they are an OH & S nightmare. I can move them about but I am 105 kG.

We also have a way better oak budget per bottle than the competition. Those APJohns barrells are in a class of their own.

By having several blending options (read parcels of fruit) you can come up with the goods reasonably consistently.

Glad Brucer and Co like the Calliope. The 02's a beauty! Slightly different is style to Warrabilla in that its more advanced and rich/porty, but its a great style and Andy's a hell of a nice bloke to boot!

Just wish I had access to his 80 year old Shiraz!

Cheers
Smithy

smithy wrote:
Just wish I had access to his 80 year old Shiraz!

Andrew,

I could understand if you wanted access to his 80 year old fortifieds, but his 80 year old Shiraz would be a bit past it by now.

I hear he has some good old vines too.

80 YO Vines!

Sorry
Smithy

The games up Smithy. There on to your patented subliminal mind warp sneaky cloak and dagger back door marketing technique. You might have to try a different approach like honesty, openess, great hospitality, oh and making good booze.

Seriously though I think any winemaker who takes the time to contribute as much as Andrew does can reap whatever benefit becomes of it. Input from any winemaker can only be good for the overall strength of the board. Alright not any winemaker, but most of them.

Interesting comments on Rutherglen. It seems the only table wines to achieve broad public acclaim over the past couple of years has been from Warrabilla and Bullers (for whom I work), yet the same wines regularly divide opinion and spark off bloody high alcohol debates (not, my intention here). Torb's comments on the LJ Shiraz are spot on, I think it sits comfortably amongst the top halz dozen reds in the district. I would be interested to see what others think of the progression of Rutherglen as a region in terms of their table wines. Is the region collectively stronger than say a decade ago?

LL

Can I throw Glenrowan and Milawa into the Rutherglen region?

Oh well I will anyway.

My favourite wine from the region has declined so much over the last decade that I never buy it anymore. That is the Baileys Classic Hermitage/Shiraz. It and its big brother, the Block Shiraz are now but shadows of their former self and are even approachable immediately on purchase.

However this loss has been possibly covered by the start up of Warrabilla, although Smithy's wines are decidedly wimpy when it comes to tannins compared to the old Baileys, and as much as I hate to say it, the Browns takeover of All Saints has seem a big turn around there and they are now cranking out some very good stuff. The other "newbies" that turn out some good stuff are Andersons and Cofields who also turn out some damn fine stuff but not as reliably.

Bullers and S&K have always made spasmodic superb wines. Morris seems to have survived well. Campbells you can keep, never have been interested.

I really miss the Fairfield durf, which was the areas best until Smithy started up. (Of course he made the last one there as well and a rare beauty it was).

So a mixed bag for me really, as I miis the live forever shiraz from Baileys but love the Warrabilla, I just don't think it will go the 25+ years ot the baileys and still be improving. Different strokes I guess.

Sorry for being so long winded.

roughred wrote:Interesting comments on Rutherglen. It seems the only table wines to achieve broad public acclaim over the past couple of years has been from Warrabilla and Bullers (for whom I work), yet the same wines regularly divide opinion and spark off bloody high alcohol debates (not, my intention here). Torb's comments on the LJ Shiraz are spot on, I think it sits comfortably amongst the top halz dozen reds in the district. I would be interested to see what others think of the progression of Rutherglen as a region in terms of their table wines. Is the region collectively stronger than say a decade ago?

LL

LL, I think the reds are probably better now than they were about a decade ago, I suspect more care with viticulture, yeasts, oak etc in producing premium-level reds has also lifted the general consistency and quality of a lot of Rutherglen reds.

I've been visiting Rutherglen since the mid-60's and mostly came away with fortifieds (eg flagons of Morris Liqueur Tokay for about $6.50 way back then), with occasional reds from Bullers (mostly Calliope), Stanton & Killeen (Moodemere and more recently Jacks Block), Campbells (Bobby Burns before they lightened the style), occasionally All Saints, St Leonards, Fairfield, Morris and Mt Prior.

I think the style of many of the low/mid-level reds has been lightened a bit as well as cleaned up for more commercial acceptability, but many of these aren't all that exciting to me, some of them have lost a bit of local character as a trade-off. I think some of the premiums are pushing the value limits a bit (All Saints Carlyle, Campbell Barkly Durif (at CD anyway, street price is more bearable), maybe Jack's Block).

I still mostly buy Calliope Shiraz (retail rather than CD), sometimes Morris Durif as it can be spectacular with some age and more recently the Warrabilla reds that I like a lot and are still affordable, plus some sparkling shiraz, mostly from Cofield and the Buller RLB (although the 71/91/92 blend doesn't impress as much as the first one).

In summary, I'm buying more Rutherglen reds than ever before, but apart from Warrabilla it's mostly the same wines I was buying 10-15 years ago in about the same quantities.

Wow
This is really opening up the discussion.

The Baileys Esendon red stripe hermitage was one of the wines that inspired me to make big reds. Likewise the Morris's durifs.

In todays terms I sometimes wonder whether they were all that good, or were they just streaks ahead of the opposition? ie Way ahead of their time.
Theres no doubt they live. I've seen wonderful wonderful wines from Booths Taminick next door and the tannin structure is spectacular.
These tannins are way softer now as they are using softer presses and picking things later with riper softer tannins.
Baileys still have the screwpress as does Booths (they just choose not to use them). Have Baileys wines changed from the red stripe shiraz days...of course they have. And probably I'll say for the better.

For instance the oak we use is way younger and cleaner, Ph and So2 levels are much more in tune with making long term wines. The residual sugar which often appeared in those older wines making them porty and prone to spoilage is gone.

Not to say they didn't make the odd cracker.Of course they did, and Harry Tinsen was a great winemaker, however I'd suggest it was way more hit and miss. Even in 15 years our technology on fermentation,nutrition, yeast strains etc have gone through the roof.

Now as far as ageing my little babies, well lets talk apples and apples.
My big stuff is the Durif....no doubt about it. The natural preservatives in wine are alcohol tannin and acid. My wines have heaps of all 3. Will they age like the best of the old fashioned stuff.
Well if your'e talking 02,03,04 etc...God I hope so! I'll be bloody surprised if they don't.

The French actually measure dry extract, whats left in the wine when you take all the alcohol and water out. You get an idea from how viscous the wine is, how thick it gets. My stuff is up there.

I actually really like the 02 Calliope Shiraz, its a different style to mine, more old worldy and porty with great richness and tannin. Similar wines have been the old Fairfields that Steve Morris made in 85 and 86.

Sorry Davo the Wahgunyah stuff leaves me cold apart from Anton and his Valhalla Wines. (Not yet released) He's on a heavier bit of ground and his 05 Shiraz is stunning, great French and American oak, good fruit and great balance. Look out for this in the future!

Though I love Chris Pfeiffers Gamay. Its bang on for what the style should be.

This "great wines-- just don't know how they'll live" is actually a pretty mean line coming from some opposition locally( though I've heard it from journos and customers alike). I think its great that these people put their reputation and credibility on the line like this.

Its our 10 year anniversary of the new winery in January. Perhaps we should open some 92's (they were big 15.5%+ wines) and they'll be 14.

Hmmm, maybe i can feel a tasting coming on! I'm really just being a bit of a Bast$#d here.

I already know the result!

Now back to my subliminal mind waves!

Cheers
Smithy

PS The Brown family vineyard stuff ( All Saints St leonards ) is made at Gapstead.

Micheal Cope Williams up there is another very talented winemaker.

Cheers
Smithy

Smithy, we will be over in June or July so wait on for that tasting I might just bring a 92 Baileys Bomber

Had a 97 Fairfield Durif tonight just on the strength of this discussion. You must have been slipping as it was only 14.5%. Absolute cracker of a wine though and with years ahead of it. Still tons of typical Rutherglen flavours right across the palate and a tannin structure to die for.

No, the All Saints wines are not block busters a'la W/billa, but they are clean and well crafted and quite a few of them are very drinkable. I am particularly fond of their "Ruby Cabernet". When it is good it is very good. And they turn out a very drinkable Cab Franc verital.

The other Brown brother at Milawa, while turning out mostly reliable factory pap, also releases the occasional gem in small quantities. I still have a few of their limited release shiraz from 98, made in a style I think even you would enjoy. Big fruit with no filtration or fining. Dropping colour all over the bottle but still drinking beautifully 7 years down the track.

Davo,

I agree with about the Baileys, it was a staple in my cellar for years. Also I like the Cofiled Quartz Vein in better years; they can make some good wine. Thier FRS is terrific VFW too.

Some of those All Saints wine, although they are "commercial" in nature are all right too.

Davo, ifyour'e saying youv'e seen a big turnaround in AS reds over tyhe lasst few years I agree with you. If your'e saying its better reds than the pre 89 reds made by George and Max Cofield I agree with you.

The reds I made in 89/90/91 when I was chief winemaker won Best Rutherglen red in the following years consectutively.

We didn't have Ruby Cab or the other variety you mentioned (they were at St Leonards). The 98 unfiltered was a decision to emulate Warrabilla which at the time was unfiltered. I have never kept winemaking secrets, the industry is way too open, it makes for better wine all round.

Since 92 the wines have been made elsewhere. Initially at Browns by Wendy Cameron, then Rutherglen Estates, and for a few years at Gapstead.

Gapstead seems to be doing the best job.
As far as saying its comparable to my stuff I say Bollocks!
I have better dirt, crop way lower,pick riper, have better trellis, use way better wood and way more of it, make my own stuff on site so its not dizzy from continual movement, and I don't not store wine in plastic bags in the ground.

But apart from that! If they can sell it good luck to them!

The 92 Baileys red stripe will be a Steve Goodwin wine. he lectured me about making dinosaur wines that nobody would want to drink. He still does on occasion....so you've got to say he's consistant! They made a concsious decision in later years to build them up again!

Cheers
Smithy



Cheers
Smithy

Anonymous wrote:IS THIS THE "WARABILLA PROMOTIONAL WEBSITE" OR SOMETHING

Seriously, I'm getting a little pissed at this endless Warabilla talk, drummed up by Smithy. Go somewhere else to promote your wine.

No

he won't go elsewhere, unless he wants to!

I invited and re-iterated my invite to Smithy and any other wine makers to become involved.

They add to the discussion greatly, give information and insights others don't have, and generally love wine and love speaking about it.

None that I recall have ever gratuitously self promoted, and if they did endlessly I'd intervene, although this is unlikely.

I'd like more wine makers/winery owners to contribute, and feel free to, but anonymous 'guest' postings like this won't thelp that I suppose.

Interesting, in most places when you come in as a 'guest' it infers a level of behaviour and manners, but public forums, wine and otherwise, seem to counter this usual behaviour.

Not sure why, the anonimity I suppose.

I'm happy to have as many winemakers on the forum as want to contribute. I'm happy to read about almost anything wine, wine of all colour and power even though I'm a fan of big reds.

Chat about overseas wines, the excellent series of posts by Attilla, Pinot etc, I'm happy for them all to appear on my screen. If a Pinot maker wants to contribute and say what great wines he makes, fantastic, I'll read it with interest.

Yes, Smithy plugs Warrabilla but then again if you're making good wine and believe in what you're doing why wouldn't you?

His style may not suit every palate but there does seem to be a broad level of support from those that like it, support shown by opening the wallet too.

As for negative remarks by guests, they're not worthy of comment.

Sometimes I wish that Gavin would nuke them rather than give them currency by ongoing debate. I'm happy to accomodate and debate any viewpoint from someone who is prepared to say who they are.

I don't think anyone, Smithy included should have to defend against guest comments. Get nuking Gavin!

Steve,
One of the great things about a forum like this is to be able to express opinions that may or may not be all that socially acceptable in the culture of wine.
Guests can get up and say what they like, or for whatever reason members can anonomously post.

I have broad shoulders, So long as its all in good nature I wouldn't want to see posts getting nuked.

The reasons I joined this group was to find out whats hot and whats not, and whats affordable for me, learn something and have fun.

I might get a bit OOT on occasions but passionate artisans are allowed to!


Cheers
Smithy

smithy wrote: ...passionate artisans...

Now this conjures up all sorts of images! And I'm even off the drugs now

All Saints is an interesting one. In my opinion they had a pretty good run from 92 through to 98. With the exception of 93 (an all round write off) there were some outstanding wines under various labels produced in this period. 92 and 94 Shiraz from All Saints, and 95,96, & 97 Wahgunyah Shiraz (under a St Leonards label but produced with All Saints fruit) were all pretty bloody good IMO, as were the 98 Carlyle wines (although the Durif faded).

With Brown Bros relinquishing ownership and no longer making the wines from 99 (I think!) and the winemaking duties being handballed around I think the quality suffered. I have not tried anything that impressed me greatly since. In all fairness though 99/00/01 were not vintages to write home about.

As for Ruby Cabernet, I think it reached its greatest heights in the Coolabah Dry Red Casks circa 1999. It's a bland bred for purpose mutant designed specifically to deliver colour at astronomical cropping levels.

LL

Anonymous wrote:I think you left out "and to plug the hell out of my wines"

Anon, I think you left out "I don't believe the forum owner when he said he's happy with the posts, I know better than him and all the rest of you who appreciate smithy's presence and input as well as his wines"

By all means continue typing one-handed, but do it somewhere else until you have something useful to contribute.

PS, what you are doing now (apart from making a fool of yourself) is keeping the topic at the top of this list and right in everyone's face, helping with the Warrabilla publicity no end...

Dear Guest
That thread was "Bang for your buck under $20"----Relevant?

Cheers
Smithy

Smithy,

I've just recently visited your website and have e-mailed the link to the wine-club to my wife as a hint for a future Xmas or Birthday present. I hope she gets the message. I guess it wasn't all that subtle.

The reason I'm writing is: I don't know how you are doing financially (and it's obviously none of my business) but I'd beg you to maintain your pricing levels as closely to the current mark as possible. It must be tempting to raise prices with every good review but seriously the fact that there is only $8 between your reserve and top of the line Parola's range is very very appealing and inspires people like me to try your wines and support you long term.

Obviously your prices are your business and you have to make a business decision every year but I just thought I'd offer you some feedback as a consumer about what attracts buyers like me.

I buy wine on a budget and your prices instantly attracted me to giving your wines a try. If the Parola's had been $45 or $50 I probably would have had a look and not bothered purchasing.

Anywho, tell me to pull my head in if you like but I'd encourage any small to medium producer to follow your pricing regime if they are trying to build long term support rather than trying to launch a $60 flagship to cash in on the current trends.

And I now step down off my soapbox.

Rodney,
Loyalty is a 2 way street,
We have customers who have been with us a very long time and who don't have buckets of money.

Do we neglect them just because we've had some good writeups?

No, of course not!

One of our pet hates is wineries coming from nowhere with no track record and charging heaps. We leave them alone in droves, as we are after all winelovers and consumers too. (As do many many others)

Thats not to say the Parola's won't go up a little with time. That $8 difference probably isn't enough.

That said, I once worked for someone who raised the price of a fortified wine $2 every time it got a gold medal.
Went from $14 to $30 in 2 years. I hated it....preferred to get Silvers!

Theres also a lot of seriously good red wine out there. The market helps keep things pretty fairdinkum as well!

Cheers
Smithy

Smithy,

With all this talk of your wineclub, like Rodney I have also checked out your website. Currently I am only a member of one other winery due to the fact that I buy enough wine already, and trying to justify a mixed, untasted 6 pack every 6 and/or 12 months is a tad hard, not only to the wife but also the wallet.

However, saying this, I have been convinced .... expect my application next week. Looking forward to trying some of your big-reds.

every 12 months but we always write to people to give them the option.
Cheers
Smithy

There is a dearth of Rutherglen reds in my cellar, however, I have always been a fan of the wines down Glenrowan way. Any similarities?

I would like to put together a bit of a 6 pack of Warrabilla wines for about 5 plus years down the track. What do people recommend?

I know Muscat Mike a big fan of the Durif and hopefully we will share a bottle over Peking Duck in Beijing in a few months.

Gavin doesn't sell the wines and I can't get them in Hong Kong. Are you the best point of contact Smithy?