The Auswine Forum

+1
Certainly likes to stir the pot.
The public and the company putting one brand on a pedestal for so long is bound to end badly, not helped by alienating the domestic market, outrageous prices, bullshit from critics that only want a flag every year and a great many new labels... with many needing to be discontinued as the fruit only goes so far.
That said, they have and still make some good wines...Magill and St Henri are still sporadic purchases. A bottle of 90 707 last year was sublime.
I think Duvall did a good job, certainly not prostituting himself round the globe like the current incumbent.
As for Wynns...well won't say too much other than a little love, a lot less American oak, a little less green/over ripe fruit and yields off the charts due to overhead irrigation, needed to stop and largely have.
Yes they too are guilty as charged...and like Pennies simply have too many wines in the range now. Life was simpler and much more consistent when for about 20 years just 4-5 reds were produced.
Pity you don't organise on offline Felix and a few of us here could certainly offer an opinion on those dozens of bottles that are destined never to be drunk.
Cheers Craig

brodie wrote:Sometimes I think Felix is a troll. I understand what he is saying but he likes to make it out to be black and white. I agree the style changed for the worse but to argue that every single wine made after Max Schubert retired is shit seems a little hyperbolic. Maybe is just me!

.... so, from me saying that they haven't had a gold star winemaker (IMO) since Schubert to you saying every winemaker since him is shit.
Honestly, just re-read what you wrote and have a think about that. The average intelligent person would, I'd argue, assume there are a fair few grades between the best (gold standard) and the worst (shit)

"Penfolds post the 70s pretty much a mess" mess doesn't mean shit?
maybe you should re-read what you wrote....

felixp21 wrote:

brodie wrote:Sometimes I think Felix is a troll. I understand what he is saying but he likes to make it out to be black and white. I agree the style changed for the worse but to argue that every single wine made after Max Schubert retired is shit seems a little hyperbolic. Maybe is just me!

.... so, from me saying that they haven't had a gold star winemaker (IMO) since Schubert to you saying every winemaker since him is shit.
Honestly, just re-read what you wrote and have a think about that. The average intelligent person would, I'd argue, assume there are a fair few grades between the best (gold standard) and the worst (shit)

Well may be you should also re -read what you actually wrote too.

I would also guess that an "average intelligent person" would be able to read you post in its entirety (rather that using a single selective quotation in reply) and reach a similar conclusion to mine that you were dismissing all Penfolds wines post 1975 . Here is what you actually said about Penfolds wines;

felixp21 wrote:Penfolds post the 70's or era of Max Schubert pretty much a mess

felixp21 wrote:The wines continue to be horribly over-rated by the critics

felixp21 wrote:micromanagement of undoubted great vineyards is below par

felixp21 wrote:they haven't had a gold star chief winemaker since ol' Maxie

I have not bought any Penfolds wines for a very long time and am not fan of the style but I still reckon your characterizations are a series of overblown generalizations (which I summarized as shit )

You should enjoy the wines you like and be happy

cheers Brodie

brodie wrote:I agree the style changed for the worse but to argue that every single wine made after Max Schubert retired is shit seems a little hyperbolic. Maybe is just me!

I've found the 1996 Koonunga Hill Cab/Shiraz to be quite good for what it is, and it was still good back in 2018 when I last opened a bottle. Another one I quite liked was the 1994 Kalimna Bin 28. The first bottle I opened (can't remember when) was a bit of a mess, clumsy and awkward, and clearly in a transitional moment, but the subsequent bottle, in 2018, was quite nice.

For those who may have missed this - a fresh review of the 2004 Penfolds reds.
http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/inde ... icleID=325

Speaking of Penfold's style, what can we expect of Bin 149, the Napa Valley (85%) and Australia (15%) blend. Anything different? The 2018 is being promoted by a local retailer for C$225.

Brodie, all that above still does not make the winemaker "shit"
Sorry, it's just not the case.
You quoted me saying the winemaker is "shit" after I said Schubert was the last gold-standard winemaker they had. These are entirely different perspectives, I am positive you can see that.
I firmly believe none of the subsequent winemakers are/were gold standard, a point you may feel free to disagree with, however, I certainly do not think any of them are "shit"

Indeed, unlike France, I think there are very few "shit" winemakers in Australia, almost all the wines we produce are at least drinkable to some extent.

crusty2 wrote:For those who may have missed this - a fresh review of the 2004 Penfolds reds.
http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/inde ... icleID=325

Thanks for the link Crusty Jr, much appreciated. Geoff Kelly's notes are always fun to read as they are so thorough, and references relevant critic reviews from the past. Pleased to see that the 2004 Bin 389 fared well as that is one that I have in the cellar. A pity they didn't taste the 2004 St Henri as that is another one I own.

Fascinating to read about the old Tahbilks and Bin 389. If I want to taste a 50 year-old Tahbilk I will need to wait another 11 years for my 1982 Tahbilk. Will it last that long? Will the cork? Will I even be around?

Mahmoud

Yes, cheers for the link!

I have a swathe of 72 Pennies and Henschke ready for my 50th next year, so very interesting to read. Individual bottle condition aside, I don't have high expectations, but curious to see how they've travelled (hopefully better than I!).
Interestingly the last time I did the round of the 72s about 15 years ago the Mt Edelstone came up top, followed by the St Henri and the Bin 28. Alas the bottle of Grange at that time was not the best. 5 to go though. This time will be Grange, St Henri, Bin 28, Bin 389, Hill of Grace, and managed to find a Wynns Black Label and a bunch of VPs. Missed out on a Seppelts Show Reserve sparkling a couple of years ago on Wickmans, alas.

Kenzo, the 72 Wynns BL magnum I had about 5 years ago was beautiful.
Cheers Craig

crusty2 wrote:For those who may have missed this - a fresh review of the 2004 Penfolds reds.
http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/inde ... icleID=325

Hi Crusty, thanks for posting the link to Geoff Kelly's reviews. As a Kiwi I am quite familiar with his writing and his wine preferences

Geoff Kelly is most definitely an old school, euro-centric classicist and pretty much hates a lot of the ripe to over ripe (to his palate anyways) Aussie Shiraz wines. He has written several times about his dislike of the Aussie expression of Shiraz vs the Nth Rhone expression of Syrah.

To see him rate these wines highly is actually very interesting in the context of the discussion of Penfolds wines in general.

He is not a wine critic - he is a long time wine collector (and former wine show judge) who hosts wine tastings in Wellington and Auckland - and then writes them up. He is not afraid to be harsh when it feels it is merited (see his reviews on Pyramid Valley wines for a great example)

cheers Brodie

felixp21 wrote:Brodie, all that above still does not make the winemaker "shit"
Sorry, it's just not the case.
You quoted me saying the winemaker is "shit" after I said Schubert was the last gold-standard winemaker they had. These are entirely different perspectives, I am positive you can see that.
I firmly believe none of the subsequent winemakers are/were gold standard, a point you may feel free to disagree with, however, I certainly do not think any of them are "shit"

Indeed, unlike France, I think there are very few "shit" winemakers in Australia, almost all the wines we produce are at least drinkable to some extent.

Felix - you post made me smile, we are talking at cross purposes - and you originally asked me to re-read what I wrote. It turns out you haven't read (carefully enough) my 1st post at all. This is why I am now officially giving you an "A" for entertainment and a "F" for reading comprehension

Not sure what was confusing about what I said:

"I agree the style changed for the worse but to argue that every single wine made after Max Schubert retired is shit seems a little hyperbolic."

Just for the avoidance of doubt - I was summarizing your views that the since 1975 the Penfolds wines were ( pretty much a mess, horribly overrated, from poorly managed yineyards and they had not had a good wine maker for 46 years) as wines were shit.

Anyway I am amazed that you think the 1976 Grange is a mess, the 1978 Grange is a mess etc etc . Personally I find the Don Ditter era wines between 1976 and 1989 to be pretty good and have given much pleasure over the years. For me the downhill slope really started with the Duval era.

each to his own and we all travel our own wine paths in life.


cheers Brodie

I think felix & brodie might actually be in violent agreement - and you can see that none of us write for a living (as far as composing & reacting to BB posts on the fly!); this is why authors have editors!
I thought the Kelly article was very instructive. I still have the best hopes for 21st century Penfolds in the 2004 vintage, although I've barely tasted anything post-2010. But until the prices are sensible I don't bother.
Always important to taste what's in the bottle, and don't take it personally (unless you were the winemaker).

A_Steady wrote:Will replacements be sought from Penfolds for the corked wines?

No, I haven't asked to replace a corked wine for about 10 years I think.

Cheers Con.

crusty2 wrote:For those who may have missed this - a fresh review of the 2004 Penfolds reds.
http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/inde ... icleID=325

Thanks for the link, interesting read, not sure I agree with some of the scores.

Cheers Con.

now that Penfold's have lost their Chinese golden goose, it will be interesting to see where they go.

Grange will always sell, for a while at least, based on the name and history of the wine, that's ok, I don't think the FG's in Bordeaux trade anywhere near their value either, but they are a luxury item like Grange.

As for 707 at $650, that is just simply a joke. Even the most ardent Aussie-wine-ophile should baulk at that, it is a $150 wine at very, very tops.
I proffered it might be good in Con's tasting simply because I thought it might agree with the Aussie palates at the tasting (my bad) but for me, coconut is something I'd rather have as a dessert. There are, literally, countless Bordeaux cabs light years ahead of it at that price point.
I've still got bottles of the 1976 707 with the $9.50 price tag on them, which would/should be the $150 in today's market. I wonder who they will sell that to?

Anyway, I see where you are coming from Brodie, there have been excellent Penfold's wines since Max (90A is a good start) but as a brand, they are just so incredibly disappointing these days.

Con J wrote:

crusty2 wrote:For those who may have missed this - a fresh review of the 2004 Penfolds reds.
http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/inde ... icleID=325

Thanks for the link, interesting read, not sure I agree with some of the scores.

Cheers Con.

Yes, interesting. perhaps I should look forward to the few '04 Bin60A's and Block42's I have stashed away somewhere at Kennards!

Thought I'd chime in.

I don't buy Penfolds wines and rarely get to drink them. It's a producer I avoid. Modern Penfolds (and Shiraz in general) just not a style I enjoy. Nevertheless, I thought the tasting was fantastic and very educational. It's good to check in every now and then and see if one's past experiences and preconceived ideas are still valid for one's own palate.

I was expecting to like more of the older wines from the 1990s, but this wasn't the case. The Bin 389s in particular were a disappointing surprise. However, I loved the 1976 St Henri, the highlight of the night for me. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to taste it and all the other wines.

Hi Ozzie
Yes, always a good thing to challenge our pre-conceptions.

If this thread has reinforced anything for me, it's the feeling that judgements of good / bad are generally meaningless for wine. We have different tastes, and rather than fighting an ideological battle, it's best to enjoy the confidence of knowing what we like and accepting that others may enjoy what we don't like.

The ability to describe a wine, goes a lot further than any mere score. It gives insight, even to someone whose tastes differ greatly. Coincidentally, someone unearthed an old thread on another forum yesterday, where amongst other comments, I'd recommended Ric Einstein (TORB)'s multiple choice tasting sheet. I'd recommended it as a way to ease someone into describing wine. I wonder what Ric would have said about this discussion - I'm sure eh would have had an opinion

Regards
Ian

mjs wrote:

Con J wrote:

crusty2 wrote:For those who may have missed this - a fresh review of the 2004 Penfolds reds.
http://www.geoffkellywinereviews.co.nz/inde ... icleID=325

Thanks for the link, interesting read, not sure I agree with some of the scores.

Cheers Con.

Yes, interesting. perhaps I should look forward to the few '04 Bin60A's and Block42's I have stashed away somewhere at Kennards!

I've got 2 of each stashed away, 1 each under cork and screw cap.

Cheers Con.

I really think, now that they’ve entered their 30s, that Penfolds set the benchmark for the SA 1990 vintage. I initially rated 91 their best. In 1990, Rockford and Henschke were good, Wynn’s not too bad, but Penfolds performed the best for my tastes. Notwithstanding the hype, I’m not hugely enamoured with the 90 Grange, but absolutely adore the 920, 90a, 389 and St Henri. Sadly, label dilution since then means they will struggle to reach those heights again, though there are some nice wines from 04 and 10.

For my palate, across the board, the 1990 labels outperform their 91,96 and 98 counterparts.

Mike Hawkins wrote:I really think, now that they’ve entered their 30s, that Penfolds set the benchmark for the SA 1990 vintage. I initially rated 91 their best. In 1990, Rockford and Henschke were good, Wynn’s not too bad, but Penfolds performed the best for my tastes. Notwithstanding the hype, I’m not hugely enamoured with the 90 Grange, but absolutely adore the 920, 90a, 389 and St Henri. Sadly, label dilution since then means they will struggle to reach those heights again, though there are some nice wines from 04 and 10.

For my palate, across the board, the 1990 labels outperform their 91,96 and 98 counterparts.

Hi Mike, agreed!

last October during a 1990 theme dinner, we had the 1990 Grange and HOG served paired in one flight. Out of the 14 people present, only one preferred the Grange over the HOG. The 1990 Grange was a very good wine but just lacked a bit of something special (which the HOG definitely had). For my palate, I though the 1990 Grange needed another 10+ years to start show some more interesting mature developed characteristics. It was still very primary. I had a very similar experience with the 1991 Grange about 10 years ago, incredibly primary and unevolved.

This has got me wondering about the Granges from the 1990s. I had quite a few of them in the cellar and keep hoping they will develop into interesting worthwhile wines with enough time in the cellar. But now I am no so sure: When I think back on how good the 1978 Grange tasted at 20 years in 1998 or how delicious the 1982 Grange was at 15 years, now I am doubting the ultimate potential of the Granges for the 1990s. I will keep some to see but others may end up going to auction.

For my palate and experience the sweet spot for Grange is between 1970 to 1988. A lot of good wines with a lot pleasure and enjoyment. The 1990 vintage seems to be the (negative) turning point for my palate. Have never had any pre 1970 Granges so can't comment about the older ones.

cheers Brodie

Mike Hawkins wrote:I really think, now that they’ve entered their 30s, that Penfolds set the benchmark for the SA 1990 vintage. I initially rated 91 their best. In 1990, Rockford and Henschke were good, Wynn’s not too bad, but Penfolds performed the best for my tastes. Notwithstanding the hype, I’m not hugely enamoured with the 90 Grange, but absolutely adore the 920, 90a, 389 and St Henri. Sadly, label dilution since then means they will struggle to reach those heights again, though there are some nice wines from 04 and 10.

For my palate, across the board, the 1990 labels outperform their 91,96 and 98 counterparts.

Certainly for me, numerous bottles of the special bins (90A and 920) have just been outstanding over the years. I’m a big fan of these special bottlings. And I would probably say that the now more relatively common Bin169 is my preference over 707 in both style and price. A recent 2008 Bin620 was also superb, although the price is getting up there. Unfortunately, stuff like the outrageously priced 171 are more marketing than substance IMO.

This is why I don't buy Penfolds wines and now have zero in the cellar after drinking or selling. Nice but not great. I'd like to see them in a blind tasting and see how they rate.

Chuck wrote: Nice but not great. I'd like to see them in a blind tasting and see how they rate.

Is that a rhyme or a rap?
We agree the winemakers are... not as good as they used to be