The Auswine Forum

I would concur with 21st century Penfolds generally. Too alcoholic, and below about St Henri level, too coarse, extracted, rough. And expensive. A betrayal of the heritage.

So we're concluding about half the top tier of Langtons' classification isn't worthy? !

Nearly all of Henschke

Cheers Craig

GraemeG wrote:
So we're concluding about half the top tier of Langtons' classification isn't worthy? !

On first view it would seem so although the thread question invites only negative opinions.

Carl

phillisc wrote:Nearly all of Henschke

Cheers Craig

Craig

You've written up the odd note praising Henschke shiraz I think I recall? You don't get the wines or is it just a continued grudge on their pricing?

Ian S wrote:Hi Jamie
Sort of a similar experience, with me realising that I really don't enjoy young red Burgundy at all (whereas I can enjoy young nebbiolo wines). I have however experience those breath-taking moments with a couple of bottles bought at auction 1969 vintage, drunk less than a decade ago.

My exposure to very old Burgundy is dropping off though I agree there are some amazing wines. I don't see as much of it these days as pricing is through the roof and there's a proliferation of fakes making sourcing critical.

Old Rioja is the most consistent very old wine I've experienced from my time abroad- if we are looking at between 40-100 years. The small window of free availability of these wines probably gone now ( even 30's and 40's Rioja available at Spainish Michelin restaurants a decade ago for under a few hundred euros )

Wizz wrote:

Ian S wrote: Grenache - pretty much across the globe. Too often jammy upfront fruit and without the grip of tannin (or acidity) that could keep it balanced, nor enough complexity beyond that initial blast of fruit. I did once think that I liked it in Gigondas, until I found out the ones I liked had significant syrah in the blend

Hi Ian, if you're interested, try some of the new Australians, particularly from McLaren Vale. They have my Burgundy/Barolo loving friends in thrall at the moment. S C Pannell, Yangarra, Vanguardist, Paralian come to mind right now. Ochota Barrels as well (RIP Taras). All dialling down the ripeness and oak significantly.

Cheers
Andrew

Long live the Grenaissance!

Agree with Wizz here Ian. Aussie Grenache is now lighter, more aromatic and has more structure. I second Yangarra and Vaguardist and add Aphelion and Dodgy Bros.

Agree about Orange wine as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

Cheers

Michael

Ian S wrote: We're arguably the reverse, in getting this, but no other champagnes have excited us in the same way, with only a small few getting a begrudging "it's ok". We've had such poor value out of champagne, that we maybe buy / drink a bottle every two years or so. 5 bottles sit in the cellar, of varying age.

I agree with the sentiment regarding vfm in champagne/sparkling and just not getting about 80% of the wines I try. Ironically I've always liked moet whenever I've tried it and i think it good value at $30 a bottle.

I don't get Brokenwood and think the wines poor value for money, graveyard possibly excepted. I also do not get the red wines from Tyrrell's.

Heh, I'm a big fan of the higher end Tyrrell's reds. Also have no problem with the Henschkes & Penfolds others have noted above - those wines have a time & a place. I find myself drinking them less frequently, but really enjoy them on the occasions I do.

The only winery that I 'don't get' that really springs to mind for me is St Hallett - every single wine I've had from there across all price points has struck me as overdone.

On the other side of the coin, whoever mentioned SC Pannell in the context of great new wave McLaren Vale gets a big thumbs up from me

50% of Burgundy is drunk too young.
45% of Burgundy is drunk too old.
That makes it a very expensive exercise. However, the 5% might just keep you hooked

Felix, well put!

I for one wish I had have bought into the vintage Burgs that were plentiful in Japan 20 years ago...alas I wasn't so enamoured back then, and still not now. They would have paid for my entire cellar now though...(and more!)
Still recall the local discount liquor store with relatively cheap DRC at the time...and there is one shop up in the North of Japan I will never forget (would love to know their story) that had magnums of 90s and earlier DRC and others, plus rows of '85 La Turque and the like lined up. Never seen anything like it - it a local booze shop with a pit toilet and otherwise nondescript...then there was the convenience store / booze shop in Shiga-ken that had Screagle and the likes for sale...in the middle of nowhere!

JamieBahrain wrote:I've been fortunate enough to regularly drink Red Burgundy wine from most of the great producers. For the last 16 years a near weekly experience, whether a formal tasting or just a few bottles with friends. I've been guided through the region by top local collectors and friends who are importers for some of the most lauded producers. Whilst there have been some excellent wines, some even exceptional on occasion, I don't get the fuss. With prices having boomed beyond the reasonable, the myth has perpetuated with the masses. Pulling the cork on a fine Red Burgundy is a social media frenzy for many these days.

Anyways, Burgundy has been done to death. Wouldn't be sad to never have another bottle. Far more soulful wine regions about for mine.

Could not agree more Jamie. I am quite active on Instagram, and every man and their dog seems to fret over Red Burgundy on their wine pages.

99% of what Penfolds produces.

They are boring predictable wines. I know Asians love their products, both here in Australia and in Asia, which to me means they are very good at marketing their brand.

Mark Carrington wrote:Two that consistently underwhelm: Moss Wood Cab & Mount Langi Ghiran Shiraz.

The beauty about wine is it is subjective. I opened up a Mount Langi Ghiran Langi Shiraz 1998 for my 50th birthday this year, and it was sublime. My wine of the year.

JamieBahrain wrote:

phillisc wrote:Nearly all of Henschke

Cheers Craig

Craig

You've written up the odd note praising Henschke shiraz I think I recall? You don't get the wines or is it just a continued grudge on their pricing?

Ian S wrote:Hi Jamie
Sort of a similar experience, with me realising that I really don't enjoy young red Burgundy at all (whereas I can enjoy young nebbiolo wines). I have however experience those breath-taking moments with a couple of bottles bought at auction 1969 vintage, drunk less than a decade ago.

My exposure to very old Burgundy is dropping off though I agree there are some amazing wines. I don't see as much of it these days as pricing is through the roof and there's a proliferation of fakes making sourcing critical.

Old Rioja is the most consistent very old wine I've experienced from my time abroad- if we are looking at between 40-100 years. The small window of free availability of these wines probably gone now ( even 30's and 40's Rioja available at Spainish Michelin restaurants a decade ago for under a few hundred euros )

No grudge Jamie, yep, over the journey coutesy of previous buys a long time ago and one or two friends who have very deep pockets, I have managed to taste a great many vintages. The pricing structure is outrageously stupid...beyond belief and after tasting 30 shirazes last week in the Valley, many as good or better than Mt Ed at 1/3 to 1/4 the price. Good luck to all those who can shell out $1400 for a sixer.
35 something wines in the portfolio, what don't they make?? An elitist attitude that continues with the next generation. I look at Henschke and I look at Yalumba...chalk and cheese. The next 10-20 years will be very interesting
Have a good festive season, if you can
Cheers Craig

felixp21 wrote:50% of Burgundy is drunk too young.
45% of Burgundy is drunk too old.
That makes it a very expensive exercise. However, the 5% might just keep you hooked

... so add in lets say 5% corked ... and geez you better hope that one bottle you got the timing right, wasn't the one that was corked!

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I am always intrigued by different tastes, and this just again affirms for me something I constantly bang on about with people who don't yet know wine - never listen to anyone who tells you there is a single and only "right" answer to what is good!

sjw_11 wrote:

felixp21 wrote:50% of Burgundy is drunk too young.
45% of Burgundy is drunk too old.
That makes it a very expensive exercise. However, the 5% might just keep you hooked

... so add in lets say 5% corked ... and geez you better hope that one bottle you got the timing right, wasn't the one that was corked!

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I am always intrigued by different tastes, and this just again affirms for me something I constantly bang on about with people who don't yet know wine - never listen to anyone who tells you there is a single and only "right" answer to what is good!

I’m actually happy when people in general don’t like the wines I like. It minimises the demand pressure on price! Riesling is Exhibit A....

Michael McNally wrote:

Wizz wrote:

Ian S wrote: Grenache - pretty much across the globe. Too often jammy upfront fruit and without the grip of tannin (or acidity) that could keep it balanced, nor enough complexity beyond that initial blast of fruit. I did once think that I liked it in Gigondas, until I found out the ones I liked had significant syrah in the blend

Hi Ian, if you're interested, try some of the new Australians, particularly from McLaren Vale. They have my Burgundy/Barolo loving friends in thrall at the moment. S C Pannell, Yangarra, Vanguardist, Paralian come to mind right now. Ochota Barrels as well (RIP Taras). All dialling down the ripeness and oak significantly.

Cheers
Andrew

Long live the Grenaissance!

Agree with Wizz here Ian. Aussie Grenache is now lighter, more aromatic and has more structure. I second Yangarra and Vaguardist and add Aphelion and Dodgy Bros.

Agree about Orange wine as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

Cheers

Michael

I appreciate the suggestions. Definitely happy to taste and the increased structure sounds like there may be hope yet that I'd like them!

felixp21 wrote:50% of Burgundy is drunk too young.
45% of Burgundy is drunk too old.
That makes it a very expensive exercise. However, the 5% might just keep you hooked

Where does premox fit in

Rossco wrote:

felixp21 wrote:50% of Burgundy is drunk too young.
45% of Burgundy is drunk too old.
That makes it a very expensive exercise. However, the 5% might just keep you hooked

Where does premox fit in

One of the comments of the year!

Rossco wrote:

felixp21 wrote:50% of Burgundy is drunk too young.
45% of Burgundy is drunk too old.
That makes it a very expensive exercise. However, the 5% might just keep you hooked

Where does premox fit in

.... in the "too old" category

WRT premox, there are now a considerable number of Producers that have gone to diam (Leflaive, Chartron) or screwcap (Michelot et al). I still purchase White Burgundy, but my purchases are limited only to those that do not seal with cork.

felixp21 wrote: WRT premox, there are now a considerable number of Producers that have gone to diam (Leflaive, Chartron) or screwcap (Michelot et al). I still purchase White Burgundy, but my purchases are limited only to those that do not seal with cork.

DIAM has brought me back to some producers..the ones I will still buy w/ cork are ones that I have found to have fewer premox issues..

That said...most of what I have is relatively young now...with a few older than 7 year olds left (I figure they're gone or not gone at this point) or they're under DIAM.

That and Oregon Chard..