Amorim technology produces corks with 'TCA risk equal to zero' by December 2020

[GraemeG]

This is like reading about projects to improve the carburettor, or CRT televisions.

In the context that almost all cars still run a carburettor and all the great TV's are CRT's and fuel injection is untested and flatscreen TV's are not available and.... well nothing like it. What an abstract comparison.

Seems to be a serious amount of angst and petulance surrounding an important topic.

It's not like the forum is awash with discussion and this is cluttering more important issues.

Any attempts at improvement, or claims of improvement are worth of discussion. Whether through the lens of the cork/screw cap debate or entirely independent of them.

I was suggesting that corks are obsolete technology, that is all. Thankfully an ever-shrinking proportion of the world's wines are sealed with an inferior 'quality grade' closure, which seems almost impervious to achieving modern food-grade standards of performance.
(Compare to the bottle the wine comes in, for example - inert, reliable - just what you want in food-grade packaging.)

This would all be of no real import, except that most of the world's very best wines still use corks!
But then these wines are also very expensive, and usually made in very limited quantities considering the demand. And a couple-of-% failure rate isn't really an issue for those who can afford them; perhaps they're not that expensive after all.

It's nice that Amorim are still trying to improve their 19th-century closure, even if it only means they're admitting it's still not of acceptable quality!
No angst or petulance, just looking at the facts!
Graeme

[Benchmark]

I look forward to the day my mid priced Chianti, Brunello, Langhe, Burgundy, Rioja and Bordeaux is under this futuristic closure

[JamieBahrain]

I look forward to the day my mid priced Langhe is under this futuristic closure

Can do!

[Benchmark]

I look forward to the day my mid priced Langhe is under this futuristic closure

Can do!

Solving the closure emergency might be easier than overcoming the Malaysia import/taxation/customs/bribery/red tape situation

[Ozzie W]

There is no screwcap debate for me. It is not relevant because the wines I drink are not available in any other closure but cork.

Screwcap might be the greatest closure in the universe, it would make no difference.

I am always surprised when people bring screwcap into a discussion where it is simply not an option.

Snap.

My academic interest in the subject passed years ago. Pragmatism wins. Most makers don't give you an option, so who cares.

You might care if you paid hundreds of dollars for a bottle (of which you had no choice of closure) and it was corked because it was sealed with tree bark. You'll likely have no recourse if an auction purchase or even a retail purchase you cellared for many years.

[Benchmark]

There is no screwcap debate for me. It is not relevant because the wines I drink are not available in any other closure but cork.

Screwcap might be the greatest closure in the universe, it would make no difference.

I am always surprised when people bring screwcap into a discussion where it is simply not an option.

Snap.

My academic interest in the subject passed years ago. Pragmatism wins. Most makers don't give you an option, so who cares.

You might care if you paid hundreds of dollars for a bottle (of which you had no choice of closure) and it was corked because it was sealed with tree bark. You'll likely have no recourse if an auction purchase or even a retail purchase you cellared for many years.

I have lamented the short comings of cork as a closure plenty of times, even in the last two weeks with a bad run of Piedmont wines.

It does not change the fact that the wines available are under cork and not available in alternative closures. Debating the cork/screwcap issue is irrelevant and 'caring' about what might have been is a waste of energy.

[Wizz]

There is no screwcap debate for me. It is not relevant because the wines I drink are not available in any other closure but cork.

Screwcap might be the greatest closure in the universe, it would make no difference.

I am always surprised when people bring screwcap into a discussion where it is simply not an option.

Snap.

My academic interest in the subject passed years ago. Pragmatism wins. Most makers don't give you an option, so who cares.

You might care if you paid hundreds of dollars for a bottle (of which you had no choice of closure) and it was corked because it was sealed with tree bark. You'll likely have no recourse if an auction purchase or even a retail purchase you cellared for many years.

Been there, done that. Know my rights or lack thereof.

And no...it doesnt change my purchasing decision whatsoever.

[phillisc]

Thankful that of the wines under cork that I buy, they are exclusively from small Australian producers, that I have extensive history with.
Returns have never been an issue and in rare cases, vintage for vintage.

I am simply too poor (and old) to be regularly engaging in the Old World space, where it seems comparable wines to what I consider in Australia as top marques, would be exclusively under cork. Daresay, they would be hellishly more expensive too!

Makes me laugh though that cork producers keep flying the banner...as said here on this thread, the only reason for that is that you need to concede that any former product was just a different shade of inferior...and likely still is
Cheers Craig

[JamieBahrain]

Has anyone had a "WOW" red wine under screw cap?

[phillisc]

Has anyone had a "WOW" red wine under screw cap?

Yes, just of the top of my head about 6 different vintages of Marius Shiraz(Symphony and Sympatico)...brilliant, vibrant, plush, rich full body wines from a small MV vineyard, crafted by Roger Pike.
Have also been impressed by Bondar Wines MV Violet Hour Shiraz and thought the 2016 Wynns Michael Shiraz is the best its ever been.
Seems to be a bit of a theme with Shiraz, perhaps more robust and forgiving than other varietals.

Cheers
Craig

[TiggerK]

Has anyone had a "WOW" red wine under screw cap?

Loaded question because the worlds great wines aren't offered under anything but cork, and for me almost all WOW red wines are old red wines.... So no indicator on the cork vs SC debate, just the way it is.

I've had plenty of potentially WOW world class wines that should have been WOW, but were ruined by a small piece of TCA infested and/or overly porous tree bark though... But we all know that feeling, while not red, a 1949 J.J Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr feinste Auslese comes to mind.. so much anticipation, so much disappointment. arrrgghhh #fucork I think it's the only TCA affected wine I actually took a few more sips of !!

[JamieBahrain]

Should have asked has anyone had any WOW aged red wines under screw cap?

I've just noticed the DIAM brigade seem to be progressing more cautiously. They aren't assuming the wines are going to be as good as what they were under the best performing corks, though so far they've been reassured.

[phillisc]

Guess you would need to be rather forgiving re the concept of age.
Red wines in Australia under screwcap, you might find 1 or 2 examples from around the 2005 vintage.
The Marius wines that I referred to were approaching 10 years, absolutely singing, and will be for another 10-20. If both of us are around then maybe we can have a look
Perhaps you can grab a '15 HoG...hear they're going like hot cakes...should be looking good at my 80th!
Cheers Craig

[brodie]

Should have asked has anyone had any WOW aged red wines under screw cap?

What is your threshold for "aged red wines under screw cap"? How old do they have to be ?

Brodie

[TiggerK]

I recall a well preserved 1978 Aussie Riesling under Screwcap which looked really good. Mind you it had a cork in it as well so hardly surprising!!

(Think it was a 1978, nineredpens or dave vino will recall)

[Benchmark]

The age issue certainly plays a role in this debate.

I move around so much I rarely get the opportunity to drink aged wine from reliable sources.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is not the argument against screwcap that it produces Peter Pan wines?

Craig, did you get an opportunity to try the Marius wines you mentioned on or near release to compare to the 10 year olds? That would be something to hear about.

The argument against cork is, long, tragic and well documented... yet when on point, unrivalled. Or do I have this incorrect?

[phillisc]

The age issue certainly plays a role in this debate.

I move around so much I rarely get the opportunity to drink aged wine from reliable sources.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is not the argument against screwcap that it produces Peter Pan wines?

Craig, did you get an opportunity to try the Marius wines you mentioned on or near release to compare to the 10 year olds? That would be something to hear about.

The argument against cork is, long, tragic and well documented... yet when on point, unrivalled. Or do I have this incorrect?

BM, thanks.
Roger Pike who posts here (and also has his wares for sale here through our esteemed host Gavin) holds a fabulous tasting at each vintage for the pickers gang, I have been involved in the last two years.
We get to try the current range of new releases and then Roger takes on a bit of a journey and IIRC after about 8-10 reds we had the great opportunity at looking at some 10+ year old editions, all under screwcap. I thought all that I tasted were exceptional, but could be biased and love MV Shiraz. Scotty Vino who posts here will have a better account than me ( much younger than myself ), but to see the wines over a decade old provided some excellent insights.

As for the closure debate, not that bothered, apart from some old Pennies stuff and maybe Wynns, Seppelts and Lindemans, I don't have a lot of expensive wines and as mentioned have had complete replacement from smaller makers.
cheers craig

[Mahmoud Ali]

My academic interest in the subject passed years ago. Pragmatism wins. Most makers don't give you an option, so who cares.

Exactly, if you want the wine, respect the winemakers decision. I buy regardless of the closure. I think the only wine in my cellar that comes in two closures is the St Henri. A few years ago I bought the '04 and the '06 almost within a few weeks of each other and both went into the cellar. I did not pay any attention to the closure. It was only after a discussion on St Henri on this forum did I take an interest. I checked and found that the '04 was under cork and the '06 was under a screwcap.

It is what it is.

[Ozzie W]

It does not change the fact that the wines available are under cork and not available in alternative closures. Debating the cork/screwcap issue is irrelevant and 'caring' about what might have been is a waste of energy.

And no...it doesnt change my purchasing decision whatsoever.

I do accept the risk that cork presents because I don't get a choice for the wines I buy. So in that respect it also does not affect my buying decisions. But that doesn't mean I don't care when I have to pour hundreds of dollars of wine down the sink. Even though I usually have no recourse, I still seize the opportunity to let the retailer/importer/producer know. The more people that complain, the better things will get. I dream of a future where no wines are corked, oxidised or otherwise faulty because of the closure. Wishful thinking? Perhaps! Is screwcap the answer? Not 100% sure. But if not enough people care and complain, then there will be no motivation for anyone in the industry to address the issues and make things better.

[Benchmark]

It does not change the fact that the wines available are under cork and not available in alternative closures. Debating the cork/screwcap issue is irrelevant and 'caring' about what might have been is a waste of energy.

And no...it doesnt change my purchasing decision whatsoever.

I do accept the risk that cork presents because I don't get a choice for the wines I buy. So in that respect it also does not affect my buying decisions. But that doesn't mean I don't care when I have to pour hundreds of dollars of wine down the sink. Even though I usually have no recourse, I still seize the opportunity to let the retailer/importer/producer know. The more people that complain, the better things will get. I dream of a future where no wines are corked, oxidised or otherwise faulty because of the closure. Wishful thinking? Perhaps! Is screwcap the answer? Not 100% sure. But if not enough people care and complain, then there will be no motivation for anyone in the industry to address the issues and make things better.

Agree 100% Oz.

I have made a point of building a relationship with my local wine retailer. They have the best range in KL and great prices.

The best thing about buying exclusively is that they replace faulty bottles with no questions asked.

It does compensate for the utter disappointment of opening a much anticipated bottle only to have it faulty. Not entirely.

I hope the message does reach the maker.

[Wizz]

It does not change the fact that the wines available are under cork and not available in alternative closures. Debating the cork/screwcap issue is irrelevant and 'caring' about what might have been is a waste of energy.

And no...it doesnt change my purchasing decision whatsoever.

I do accept the risk that cork presents because I don't get a choice for the wines I buy. So in that respect it also does not affect my buying decisions. But that doesn't mean I don't care when I have to pour hundreds of dollars of wine down the sink. Even though I usually have no recourse, I still seize the opportunity to let the retailer/importer/producer know. The more people that complain, the better things will get. I dream of a future where no wines are corked, oxidised or otherwise faulty because of the closure. Wishful thinking? Perhaps! Is screwcap the answer? Not 100% sure. But if not enough people care and complain, then there will be no motivation for anyone in the industry to address the issues and make things better.

Agree 100% Oz.

I have made a point of building a relationship with my local wine retailer. They have the best range in KL and great prices.

The best thing about buying exclusively is that they replace faulty bottles with no questions asked.

It does compensate for the utter disappointment of opening a much anticipated bottle only to have it faulty. Not entirely.

I hope the message does reach the maker.

Snap on both Ozzie and Benchmark here.

[GraemeG]

Should have asked has anyone had any WOW aged red wines under screw cap?

Interestingly, I opened a screwcapped '01 Cullen Diana a while back expecting to be thrilled, and it was fairly terrible. Which might have been considered a black mark against screwcap except that a previously opened 99 under cork was even worse! So I'm uncertain about the value of those data points.
I do seem to recall that an 02 Grosset Gaia was pretty special. But the selection/availability of high-quality, 20-yo screwcapped reds is fairly meagre, certainly in my cellar. Anyone been impressed by 02/04 Edelstone? (I haven't tasted them).
The other question is then; which aged screwcapped reds should you expect to be blown away by?
Graeme

[Benchmark]

Should have asked has anyone had any WOW aged red wines under screw cap?

Interestingly, I opened a screwcapped '01 Cullen Diana a while back expecting to be thrilled, and it was fairly terrible. Which might have been considered a black mark against screwcap except that a previously opened 99 under cork was even worse! So I'm uncertain about the value of those data points.
I do seem to recall that an 02 Grosset Gaia was pretty special. But the selection/availability of high-quality, 20-yo screwcapped reds is fairly meagre, certainly in my cellar. Anyone been impressed by 02/04 Edelstone? (I haven't tasted them).
The other question is then; which aged screwcapped reds should you expect to be blown away by?
Graeme

We can point to the reasons cork might ruin a wine but it is interesting a screwcap was fairly terrible.

Any line of thought on what went wrong? Storage issue perhaps?

[brodie]

Should have asked has anyone had any WOW aged red wines under screw cap?

Interestingly, I opened a screwcapped '01 Cullen Diana a while back expecting to be thrilled, and it was fairly terrible. Which might have been considered a black mark against screwcap except that a previously opened 99 under cork was even worse! So I'm uncertain about the value of those data points.
I do seem to recall that an 02 Grosset Gaia was pretty special. But the selection/availability of high-quality, 20-yo screwcapped reds is fairly meagre, certainly in my cellar. Anyone been impressed by 02/04 Edelstone? (I haven't tasted them).
The other question is then; which aged screwcapped reds should you expect to be blown away by?
Graeme

I am with OZ here. I hate it when a high end wine is ruined by a lousy cork. We should continue to return bottles and make sure cork failures are not taken "lying down"

I have uniformly bad experiences with aged Cullen reds and believe other have as well. I reckon it is the wine not the closure.

NZ went over to screw cap in a big way between 2003 and 2004.

My oldest experience with reds under screw cap are the 2004 Felton Rd Block 3 and Block 5 PN a few years ago. They were lovely and correct and appropriate for the Felton Rd style and age. They were not "peter pan wines" thye showed some nice developed character. They were not WOW wines because they never can be or will be for me. They have their place in my cellar but are not on the level of WOW wines.

Brodie

[Benchmark]

It is positive to hear of wines developing appropriately under screwcap.

I guess as time goes on and more wines are aged successfully under alternative closure the 'Peter Pan' concerns might be erased.

[Ozzie W]

I have uniformly bad experiences with aged Cullen reds and believe other have as well. I reckon it is the wine not the closure.

+1

More often than not, the aged Cullen's I've tasted were mediocre or worse. I've only had the odd one here and there which were good. It always surprises me the prices being asked on the secondary market. To me, the wines are way overrated. I hope the more recent vintages age better as I have a few in the cellar (2012-2015).

[Cloth Ears]

This is like reading about projects to improve the carburettor, or CRT televisions.

Definitely - more to the point, vinyl compared to digital. Yes, it's nice to open a well aged cork enclosed wine and have that cork come out whole and the wine to be untainted. It's part of the mystique. But it's nice to open a stelvin or other enclosure and to know you won't have to ditch the contents.
Yes, having your wine under screwcap (or other non-cork enclosure) means you're going to be waiting a while longer for maturity. And that you're going to gave a wine that has some of the aging characteristics (e.g. binded tannins) without some of the others (expect the fruit to be much fresher) that they have under cork. But, it's not a short game is it? We don't only play the first hole or two in a round of golf.
By now, much of the pressure on the cork trees should have been alleviated, and we should have enough to go around for those that still want to use it.

Me, I don't care as long as the opening isn't spoiled (especially on the last bottle of a vintage).

[Alex F]

Guess you would need to be rather forgiving re the concept of age.
Red wines in Australia under screwcap, you might find 1 or 2 examples from around the 2005 vintage.
The Marius wines that I referred to were approaching 10 years, absolutely singing, and will be for another 10-20. If both of us are around then maybe we can have a look
Perhaps you can grab a '15 HoG...hear they're going like hot cakes...should be looking good at my 80th!
Cheers Craig

I still have one bottle of the Marius 2005 Symphony... the last time I drank it it was developing superbly and I have no doubt that the last bottle will be just as good when it is opened. The 2010 drank last year was a wow wine for me, again, it looks like it will continue to develop for at least 10 years.

[Mahmoud Ali]

This is like reading about projects to improve the carburettor, or CRT televisions.

Definitely - more to the point, vinyl compared to digital.

Vinyl please. Part of my dream the other day involved finding my old turntable, a wood base Yamaha with a belt drive, covered in dust but still working. The only problem was that the cartridge was missing from the tone arm. For the life of me I cannot say how this fit into the rest of my dream. Back when I was looking into buying a stereo system many audiophiles swore by tube amplifiers over solid state.

Of course none of this has much to do with the topic at hand but sometime thread drift is entertaining.

Cheers .................. Mahmoud.

[Benchmark]

This is like reading about projects to improve the carburettor, or CRT televisions.

Definitely - more to the point, vinyl compared to digital.

Vinyl please. Part of my dream the other day involved finding my old turntable, a wood base Yamaha with a belt drive, covered in dust but still working. The only problem was that the cartridge was missing from the tone arm. For the life of me I cannot say how this fit into the rest of my dream. Back when I was looking into buying a stereo system many audiophiles swore by tube amplifiers over solid state.

Of course none of this has much to do with the topic at hand but sometime thread drift is entertaining.

Cheers .................. Mahmoud.

Vinyl for me every time.

I wonder if there is a correlation between vinyl and cork versus screwcap and digital?