The Auswine Forum

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Was there this much vitriol when John Hughes released the Rieslingfreak No.1 at $90?

crusty2 wrote:Was there this much vitriol when John Hughes released the Rieslingfreak No.1 at $90?

I actually think there was, and another thread about it if my (haszy middle age memory) serves me correct.

I think the more interesting question is whether John actually sold them all or he still has an unsold bunch sitting around
in his cellar and we will see a Cellar Release or Museum Release in the next few years.

More to the point, Grosset timing in marketing their most expensive release in the middle of a crisis that is shaping up to be
bigger than the 07/08 GFC. Demand will be interesting to see.

I think we can all agree that posters on this forum are supporters of Australian wineries. However that doesn't mean we cannot express our opinions on contrived wines, gussied marketing, or ambitious pricing.

Are we ready for a Single Vineyard, Block D, Row 5 wine? Very limited production and enhanced pricing, and for the lucky few willing to pay a premium you can have a bottle from the best barrel.

Mahmoud.

crusty2 wrote:Was there this much vitriol when John Hughes released the Rieslingfreak No.1 at $90?

C2
No vitriol from me, yes Riesling at $100 leaves me scratching my head, just as the parallel of $500 Shiraz does.
I am not against what is happening here per se, I can't kick Riesling to the kerb, its probably if I am honest the favourite of all varieties that I drink. Kaiser Stuhl EV Green Ribbon sowed a seed 30 years ago and I have never looked back. I have good representation of Grosset, PB and RF across multiple price points in the cellar.

What I take umbrage to is the nausea inducing spiel of the tasting note, resembles unrequited dribble. Before I say anything else, lets see if Champagne reviews head the same way
Cheers Craig

It was the Tyson Stelzer review that raised my eyebrow.

Personally I think it is great that Jeffrey is pushing the boundaries, as is John Hughes. Whether it sells or not is another story - but I think Jeffrey won't have an issue moving it through the cellar door, he gets substantial foot traffic when its open.

On a similar vein - my mates from the Barry's are also pushing the boundaries (see below). Other winemakers in the Clare Valley have dabbled with what the Barry's have done, but have been averse in formally releasing, perhaps we may see more of this in the future?

The Barry's have released the 2017 Loosen Barry "Wolta Wolta" Riesling Clare Valley RRP $120

On 17th March 2017, five tonnes of Riesling were harvested from Block 18 (planted in 1979) at our Lodge Hill vineyard. It was a week later than normal as we were looking for a greater hangtime. Juice numbers were very good at 12 baumé with a pH of 3.1 and 7.5g/L TA. Fruit was stored in a cold room overnight to bring the temperature below 10˚C. Once destemmed and crushed, the fruit was pressed into stainless steel for 12 hours to settle, before being racked into the 2,800-litre German oak ‘Fuder’ cask. The light lees were racked which assisted a wild ferment to take place after five days. Fermentation took four weeks with the temperature maintained at 18˚C. When residual sugar was below 10g/L, cooling was turned on to arrest the fermentation at 6g/L, achieving a good acid-to-sugar balance. The wine then sat on gross ferment lees for 12 months at 10˚C before spending a further 11 months in stainless steel on fine lees. Alcohol 12.1%; RS 6g/L; TA 6.5g/L.
The 2017 Wolta Wolta was bottled on 14 January 2019 and, after spending a year in bottle, was released on 21 February 2020.

Wonderful texture and a high level of complexity. Ripe lime, green mango, white nectarine and spice, gently smoky with a savoury cheese slice character. It’s kind of juicy, but stony and earthy too, fine crushed rock feel, a zing of green apple sorbet, sour yoghourt, and a very long crunchy finish. Weight delivered with finesse. Very interesting (said with a German accent). 95 points. Gary Walsh, The Wine Front February 2020

Regardless - makes for interesting discussion

Ok, now that Matt mentioned the Wolta Wolta...yes, there's this new wave of high-prized Rieslings, which received some mouthwatering reviews from highly regarded critics. Logically, I wanted to try these wines but didn't go into a buying frenzy as they are expensive wines. Luckily I had the chance to try this wine in a recent tasting (Summer of Riesling @ The Ed) together with some other Ernie Loosen wines from Germany. I was quite surprised. These wines are dry-ish, sort of creamy-leesy, some even a bit cheesy as Gary Walsh indicated in his tasting note, certainly not so much fruit forward. In a blind tasting I would have guessed I'm drinking a Spanish Albarinho or maybe a leaner type of Chardonnay. I guess that's a result of sitting on lees for quite an extended time, in case of the Wolta Wolta almost two years apparently. These wines are certainly complex and textural, very interesting style, but in the end I realised that this Riesling style in just not so much my thing. Maybe I missed a bit the fruit purity of the Rieslings I'm used to drinking, may it be a bone dry lemony/limey type or a more tropical fruity off-dry type. By all means, you should try to taste these wines so that you know what the fuss is all about and, more importantly, if this Riesling style gets you excited. Happy researching, Mario.

Benchmark wrote:

Wizz wrote:
Being a cranky middled aged greying man, I also detest this type of TN .

Can I get a clarification on what 'middle aged' is these days?

I have been pushing the number back for a decade....

its my current age less 5 years. has been for a long time now

JamieBahrain wrote:Germany, France, Austria.... Australia?

C'mon. 60 USD for a top-tier riesling is not much compared to the previous- even Austria where top-tier riesling can far exceed this price. Do we want to be considered a great riesling producing nation? And to be honest, our rieslings are very sound but hardly world beaters for the most. I think these strives for high quality Australia products need to be commended.

It's actually a time to get behind Australian products and whatever industry we have left. I'm not suggesting the above are tall poppy gripes yet in these times and in the future successful and profitable Aussies need to be celebrated. I look forward to trying this wine.

Gotta say I agree 100%. Riesling is cheap. Even the good German/ Alsatian/Austrian ones. Compare top Dry Rieslings from Grosses Gewachs sites to white burgundy Grand Cru. The Rieslings look like bargains. Even at the pinnacle - Keller G Max is a fraction of the price of DRC le Montrachet.

Australia isn't in that class. Sorry folks, it just isn't. Period. Raging bargains on the global stage, but at a level down from the big gun Europeans. I'm curious about the good folk who are trying to bat up though, at the traditionally accepted quality pinnacle like Hughes and Grosset.

I'm also curious about the alternative route - the range of winemaking techniques thrown at riesling, old barrels, lees work, skins.

There's a comment further up that Riesling is the easiest and cheapest to make. Sure - ferment it dry in a tank and bottle it. Easy. But if your fruit is shit or you mess up the press cycle or ferment temperatures, you have nowhere to hide. No oak, no malo, nothing. Not so easy.

And yeah Tysons note is joyfully ridiculous

Wizz wrote:
There's a comment further up that Riesling is the easiest and cheapest to make. Sure - ferment it dry in a tank and bottle it. Easy. But if your fruit is shit or you mess up the press cycle or ferment temperatures, you have nowhere to hide. No oak, no malo, nothing. Not so easy.

And yeah Tysons note is joyfully ridiculous

Hi Wizz, that comment was from me, and when I started my Bachelor of Oenology studies 35 years ago, that mantra persisted then, as it still does now. We were fortunate to have experiences from John Vickery, Wolf Blass, Jim Barry and many others. Indeed get the ferment right, cold stabilise, filter and bottle...no issues, however, if things get hot, if bacterial spoilage takes place, then yes in the shit.

All this Rizza talk is making me thirsty...have an 02 Petaluma in the fridge so will open that pre-dinner.
Cheers Craig

phillisc wrote:

Wizz wrote:
All this Rizza talk is making me thirsty...have an 02 Petaluma in the fridge so will open that pre-dinner.
Cheers Craig

Get on it and post notes. Require Tyson poetry, not dry descriptions.

phillisc wrote: All this Rizza talk is making me thirsty...have an 02 Petaluma in the fridge so will open that pre-dinner.
Cheers Craig

Winning...

Yeah we had a couple of things go wrong both in the vineyard and in the winery in the 6 years we made Auburn, and it aint pretty...brown and black rot in the vineyard is hard to pick out while trying to get some sort of yield, and it shows in finished wines. Ferment temperatures are a bitch unless you have glycol. Which we didn't in the early years

phillisc wrote:All this Rizza talk is making me thirsty...have an 02 Petaluma in the fridge so will open that pre-dinner.

Please post notes on the Petaluma, I'd really appreciate it. I have an old bottle of one, bought long before Australian riesling appeared on the scene here in Canada. A friend of mine special ordered a case and I bought a bottle, sight unseen and based on his recommendation. He opened a bottle at a tasting and we were dumbfounded by how dry and acidic it was though it has to be said it was after a big tasting. For some reason or another I still have my 1992 bottle and would dearly love to hear how your 2002 is faring.

Cheers .......... Mahmoud.

Hi Mahmoud

For some reason or another I still have my 1992 bottle

In 2016 I had a 1993 Petaluma Riesling (Hanlin Hill) and it was still drinking nicely. Still good lemony fruit and lively acidity, very enjoyable.
Cheers, Mario.

I think for me the point on pricing is all about the relativity. If I can buy the Springvale for $40, the PH I guess was around $55 (now sold out), the Florita for $40, the Merle for $50 (even before you consider even cheaper but age worthy peers like Petaluma at $25) - why am I paying 90% more for this?

A lot of these new rieslings pushing $90-100-120 also have zero track record. I might trust the producer, but I don't know this specific cuvee at all. It takes a lot of faith to plonk down $100 on an unknown wine and then in 20 years find out if I got jipped or not.

sjw_11 wrote:I think for me the point on pricing is all about the relativity. If I can buy the Springvale for $40, the PH I guess was around $55 (now sold out), the Florita for $40, the Merle for $50 (even before you consider even cheaper but age worthy peers like Petaluma at $25) - why am I paying 90% more for this?

A lot of these new rieslings pushing $90-100-120 also have zero track record. I might trust the producer, but I don't know this specific cuvee at all. It takes a lot of faith to plonk down $100 on an unknown wine and then in 20 years find out if I got jipped or not.

Purely as a suggestion. Email Jeffrey, john hughes and Peter barry your issues, then post their responses here?
Craig, you too?

It's a punt Matt, you know that as well as we do. They're having a bit of fun let's see if it lasts.
Wouldn't waste my time sending emails as they wouldn't waste their time with a reply. As long as Florita, the good work the Barry boys are doing with Clos continues then I'll be happy. Don't buy much JH or JG.
Funny enough had a look at the Jim Barry website today and see that they are doing '12 Lodge Hill for a smart price. One of the few that escaped my clutches some years back.
Might shout myself half a dozen...just a lazy $20 more than a single bottle of Wolta.
Cheers Craig

Matt@5453 wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:I think for me the point on pricing is all about the relativity. If I can buy the Springvale for $40, the PH I guess was around $55 (now sold out), the Florita for $40, the Merle for $50 (even before you consider even cheaper but age worthy peers like Petaluma at $25) - why am I paying 90% more for this?

A lot of these new rieslings pushing $90-100-120 also have zero track record. I might trust the producer, but I don't know this specific cuvee at all. It takes a lot of faith to plonk down $100 on an unknown wine and then in 20 years find out if I got jipped or not.

Purely as a suggestion. Email Jeffrey, john hughes and Peter barry your issues, then post their responses here?
Craig, you too?

I don't really have an "issue" with them (I was frankly very close to throwing a G110 into my order but I just noticed the mail for Giaconda Chardonnay en primeur at the identical price of $95 so I think I will get that instead)... I welcome them trying new things and I am a capitalist so by all means make as much money as you want. I am more reflecting that I probably would buy something else and hence I find the strategy curious and wonder who does buy it.

To be fair, I have 98 bottles of Grosset in my cellar, from 2009 to 2019 vintages, across multiple of their wines, so I certainly have nothing against Grosset!