The Auswine Forum

Te Mata Coleraine

Had the 2002 in a blind tasting with 3 other top classified bdx and one other kiwi a few weeks ago

I swore black and blue on my house it was a bdx blind

Oh what a fool

Truth is NZ does a better job of imitating bdx than aus does

Agree Craig. NZ cabs, especially with age, can be difficult to pick from Bordeaux, although that does not necessarily mean they are (a) as good as top notch Bordeaux or (b) better than top notch Aussie cabs. (although I certainly prefer the NZ stuff from this millennium)
For my personal tastes, the best NZ wines are their cabs (truly superb) and their amazingly good rieslings (often, in fact very often, their best dry rieslings are better than the dry stuff coming out of Germany).

Craig(NZ) wrote:Te Mata Coleraine

Had the 2002 in a blind tasting with 3 other top classified bdx and one other kiwi a few weeks ago

I swore black and blue on my house it was a bdx blind

Oh what a fool

Truth is NZ does a better job of imitating bdx than aus does

Haven’t had an older Coleraine yet, although a tasting of a more recent vintage of the Coleraine at a recent Coonawarra Cabernet masterclass was very impressive. Have since being buying some.

phillisc wrote:
Speaking of Coonawarra, trust that the Roadshow was good.

Cheers craig

Yes, the Melbourne Roadshow was very good. Great venue at Docklands, all CD’s present, 600 punters, good vibe.

mjs wrote:

phillisc wrote:
Speaking of Coonawarra, trust that the Roadshow was good.

Cheers craig

Yes, the Melbourne Roadshow was very good. Great venue at Docklands, all CD’s present, 600 punters, good vibe.

Crikey, that's a good turn out...might need my crash helmet at the wine centre this Friday

Cheers craig

Bin 90A perhaps? Showcases how good a shiraz/cab can be.

Tony

tonsta wrote:Bin 90A perhaps? Showcases how good a shiraz/cab can be.

Tony

Yeah that is actually a pretty good call, it is one of the most balanced wines I've had over the 2-3 times I've had it (1990 vintage). It is still fairly easy to source if you are willing to pay a few hundred.

As I said earlier, 96 Block42 would be my first choice, a superb cabernet, Bin90A would be my second. Bin90A is a wonderful wine, agree it's balanced, now in a beautiful drinking window, although I've had a little bottle variation tbh. Many have been sublime, others just excellent. It has been a go to special wine for me for many years until it lost its place to the Block42 about five years ago. Block42 still years to go, arguably not yet in its prime. Can't go wrong with good bottles of either tbh

I suspect that the 04 Block42 will be just as good, have some bottles of that in the cellar together with the 04 Bin60A, not yet opened any.

Coleraine would indeed be an excellent match-up Craig.

Speaking of which, I've a couple of 08s laid down, and wonder when you reckon they'd be in a good place to crack?

Cheers.

via collins wrote:Speaking of which, I've a couple of 08s laid down, and wonder when you reckon they'd be in a good place to crack?

For me it's the 2009 Coleraine. Reckon it's still a long way away.

I don't think there's much from Oz which would be mistaken for Haut Brion! Too much sweet fruit. That said, I've a soft spot for Mount Mary, despite Felix's antipathy. Possibly Yeringberg? or maybe an old Tahbilk reserve cabernet (although which vintage would be a crap shoot - I've no idea). I've also had the odd 99/2000 Wantirna Amelia, which was a very good local bordeaux. I guess I'd tend to Yarra, or Vic, rather than SA or WA.
I've rarely drunk Oz cabernet mixed in with Bdx, I must say.

I drank a 98 Wendoure CS two weeks ago and never in a million years would you mistake it for Bdx!
Graeme

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

via collins wrote:Speaking of which, I've a couple of 08s laid down, and wonder when you reckon they'd be in a good place to crack?

For me it's the 2009 Coleraine. Reckon it's still a long way away.

Had an 09 Coleraine two weeks ago. TCA, so never got to enjoy what is touted to be an amazing wine.

I don't believe it is about beating or even matching Bordeaux but rather demonstrating that some Oz Cabernets are on a pathway whereby they give a sophisticated flavour profile that puts them on a world stage. Imitation shouldn't be the driver when winemakers know they have terriors that deliver complexity that proudly wears it's New World status.

Hacker wrote:I don't believe it is about beating or even matching Bordeaux but rather demonstrating that some Oz Cabernets are on a pathway whereby they give a sophisticated flavour profile that puts them on a world stage. Imitation shouldn't be the driver when winemakers know they have terriors that deliver complexity that proudly wears it's New World status.

+1
Regardless of the quality, region, track record, in the minds of the purists/old world drinkers (or insert any other word you see fit), there is no competition with Bordeaux.
Even if there was a shift in thinking that Aussie Cabernet is equal in regards to quality, taste and reputation, this would still not line up with the upper echelons of first growths...so what's the point.
I look at it in the same way they do...in my world Yarra Valley, Coonawarra and a few others are top of the tree and what I have tasted from France, California, South Africa I may appreciate as good, but not as good. Suspect its very much the same when those based in Europe/Asia/US look at premium Cabernet not from Bordeaux, good but not great.

Horses for courses
Cheers Craig

Not sure there's any Old World snobbery here but anyways.

I often present Aussie's as foils to the established great wines of the world. I've also dropped a few Australian cabernet events this year ( at great cost ) as they were not up to sufficient standard. Coonawarra 98's was one- wines were stylistically vague and devoid of terroir and the other ( Grosset) wouldn't have pulled a crowd.

Have you thought of sourcing your Aussie cab in the USA to save the long travels? Sometimes can find bargains via WS.

If it's purely about imitation, then almost certainly Aussie Cabernet Sauvignon / Merlot blends (and straight Cabernet Sauvignon) won't be able to precisely mimic the great growths of Bdx. However that is the point of terroir, for wineries to make wines that shine in their soil and their climate. The great Aussie reds don't have to be copies of the european stars.

That said, and this may be indelicate, the frequent criticism of Aussie reds in a euro lineup was often that they came across as big / clumsy in that company. Considering the wines were typically from Barossa Valley and McLaren Vale, it isn't a great surprise. Hot climate wines being put up against (at most) warm climate wines. Yes there can be old world snobbery, but the clash of styles has often been so significant, that there is less snobbery than appears (albeit with a touch of ignorance at the usefulness of comparison).

Now I am most certainly not arguing against Barossa or McLaren Vale wines, nor those wines being made in a rich/opulant style. It's a valid expression of terroir. Sit them with Californian reds and maybe an Amarone or Priorat reds, and it's a more like for like comparison, likely to yield greater insight. Putting them head to head with Bdx is a little like putting Bdx head to head with red burgundy. You can do it, but you'll get more more limited insight.

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LawrenceM wrote: they will be bringing a Haut-Brion, Mouton and Cheval-Blanc to dinner (all good vintages from the 80s/90s

Sean wrote:
in a line-up of supposedly benchmark cabernets from Bordeaux.

Hi Sean, to describe Haut Brion Mouton and Cheval as "supposedly" benchmark wines is to undermine your entire argument IMO. If you genuinely believe that these are not benchmark wines, then I am not sure what to say - you need to taste more broadly perhaps?

I must admit to be being curious as to how many time have you tasted these three chateau from vintages in 80s/90s that has helped you form this opinion? Whilst Mouton was the weakest of the first growths for quite a long time, both Haut Brion and Cheval Blanc have been consistently producing world class wines for a really long time.

Not meant as a personal attack - I am just completely gobsmacked that any fine wine lover would characterize these chateau as "supposedly benchmark"

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Sean, Brodie stole my thunder there, but the other point I would like to discuss is where you read Australian Cabernets only show well young? (well, that is your implication, given you seem to think the other drinkers would be surprised to see an aged Aussie Cabernet showing well) I haven't heard this before, although I would certainly agree that cheap Cabs, we are talking the under $25 versions, are usually best drunk in the first decade (usually, not always) To me, drinking wines like Moss Wood at anything under at least a decade is a waste.
Secondly, I remember that max Allen article, but I am afraid the fact that an English wine critic has the palate of a Yak (he or she is not on his or her own!!) does not necessarily indicate that Bordeaux First Growth wines are difficult to differentiate from Margaret River Cabernet. Those "cabernets of the World", where Cape Mentelle would insert it's current release amongst a host of the World's greats, proved zero IMO, given the World's greats were usually tasted at less than five years of age, probably shut down tight as a drum, and not suited to such absurd comparisons.
I have had Mouton from many vintages and at many ages, and likewise I feel my experience with Cape Mentelle (still have lots from the 90's in the cellar) is quite strong. To confuse those two wines seems almost impossible to me. I'm not in any way denigrating Cape Mentelle, but it is vastly different to Mouton in so many aspects.
Was at a function in HK about five or so years ago where a very famous English wine critic beautifully described what was, to me and most of those present, a classy Burgundy, as a top notch Chilean merlot. Nervous laughter ensued from the said critic when the wine was unmasked, particularly embarrassing for her as the masterclass beforehand was all about Nuits St George!!! (the wine turned out to be 2002 Les St George from Chevillon)
Over the years, I have learned never to get too excited about what any particular wine "expert" has to say, experience has shown me they are not far removed from our beloved AFL "expert" tipsters.

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Hacker wrote:I don't believe it is about beating or even matching Bordeaux but rather demonstrating that some Oz Cabernets are on a pathway whereby they give a sophisticated flavour profile that puts them on a world stage. Imitation shouldn't be the driver when winemakers know they have terriors that deliver complexity that proudly wears it's New World status.

Excellent post mate. You've nailed it.

yep, 100% agree. You wouldn't mistake the 1996 Moss Wood for Bordeaux, but it is an AWESOME wine that would astound anyone who was under the impression Aussie cabs are not World Class.

I am glad Cape Mentelle is mentioned. The best cabernet I have ever drunk is the Cape Mentelle 1983, about ten years ago. So good I bought another bottle when I was a poor student. I am now eyeing off some well cellared 1994.

Robert Parker's influence on Bdx is a whole different topic, with plenty of internet discussion forums covering it. To do a crude summary:

Yes some have become much richer/softer typically through the consultancy of the likes of Michel Rolland, and almost certainly chasing recognition from US critics (with Parker at the fore during his time)

Parker's own palate preferences show clear progression, be that physiological effects of age, or more a proud and conscious decision that bigger/riper is indeed better (in his opinion)

Some areas impacted more than others - St Emilion perhaps most of all (perhaps as noticeably changed as C9dP in the Rhone)

I fully agree that comparisons are overdone in the wine world (and indeed rankings, be that the 1855 classification, St Emilion's contentious and litigous ratings, or merely wine enthusiasts gathered together trying to assign ranks & points. Somewhere along the way, we risk losing simply enjoying the wine (and the company) in increasing focus on comparisons as a way to build expertise.

Alex F wrote:I am glad Cape Mentelle is mentioned. The best cabernet I have ever drunk is the Cape Mentelle 1983, about ten years ago. So good I bought another bottle when I was a poor student. I am now eyeing off some well cellared 1994.

I'm pretty sure i have a full case of that wine in the cellar, purchased at release ex mailing list. I'll check next time I'm down, and if I ever get to a Sydney off-line, I will bring a few bottles along.

Ian,
it's funny how everyone blames Parker for the introduction of the bigger, more alcoholic, riper style of Bordeaux, but I'm far from convinced he is the motivating force. I am old enough to (a) easily remember the 1982 vintage in its infancy, I purchased long and deep and (b) young enough to be able to clearly compare that vintage to a young 2009. The two are astonishingly similar, eerily similar. Yet, the 1982 wines were made when Parker had absolutely zero influence on the market (it is said he made his name with the 82 vintage, but in truth, he wasn't a well-known force in the wine industry until WA went on-line in the mid-90's.)
The English press went nuts, initially, on how crap the 82 vintage was, simply because they felt the ripeness of the wines would not allow them to age. Almost 40 years later, most are drinking beautifully, and 2009 will follow suit, despite similar comments of concerning that vintage. Before anyone quotes the difference in alcohol levels, go talk to anyone around in 82 in Bordeaux.... the Chateaux were so afraid of the true levels, so different to basically everything since 61, almost all "fudged" their alcohols down a point or two. (particularly on the right bank)
Is Rolland good for Bordeaux? Don't know, we need to judge his influence in another 20-30 years when we can look back and see how his wines developed.
I suspect climate has a lot more influence on Bordeaux than any wine critic or wine consultant.

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I'm not rushing to the defence of RPJ, but if he was tasting vintages of the early 2000's (and if the WA article was in 2005, that is likely) then there is something to be said about his apparent bias against MM.
John Middleton was an exceptionally talented winemaker, having learnt his trade from Colin Preece over at Great Western (not sure that, at the time, there would be a better teacher in the World) and, having selected the perfect site, produced a string of wondrous wines in the 70's, both the Cabs/Quintet AND Pinot Noir. As is often the case, there was a rush of greatness from the young vines, with the quality easing off in the 80's and 90's as these vines began to mature. Decent wines in good vintages, but certainly nothing special. After being on the mailing list almost from conception, I dropped off in the mid-90's, the price no longer reflected the quality of the product.
But in the 2000's JM had little hands-on with each vintage, and the quality absolutely plummeted. Seriously plummeted. From memory, he passed away about 2005-2006, and to me the winery went "rudderless" from about 2000 until relatively recently when Sam Middleton, the grandson, took over. With serious talent back at the helm, and the same unique terroir to work with, the wines being trotted out are once again on their way to past glories.
Perhaps not so much the Quintet, but certainly MM's Pinot and Chardonnay are now sublime. Time will tell, but there are very positive signs.
So for me, pretty much every vintage of Quintet from about 1999-2012 are, to be polite, ordinary. Some are absolute crap, lets be honest.
The 70's stuff are now just memories, the 80's and 90's stuff hanging on by a thread, and never that great anyway.

So, whilst I don't agree with RPJ that the wines rated below 80pts, I do agree that there is a long period where the winery lived off past glories and was seriously over-rated, by both critics and wine-lovers alike. Certainly not a wine that, until very recently, I would take to a tasting to show-case the abilities of Australia to produce fantastic cabernet-based wines.

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