The Auswine Forum

GraemeG wrote:Penfolds prices have, on average, risen around 10% year-on-year, for the last 20 years.
The 96 Bin 389 was widely available for $20. If the 2016 is $85, that's 7.5% compounding over 20 vintages.
I bought the 93 Bin 707 for $54. With the 2016 at $99, that's 11% every year.
89 Grange was available for $90. With the 2014 @ $758 that's 9%, every year.
BIn 28 is relatively a bargain, being only 5%pa between the 1993 @$12 and the 2016 @ $38. But then it didn't have Bin 150, RWT stealing it's fruit back then, only Grange/389/Henri. And the quality drop has been obvious.
A bit of the same applies to St Henri too, with only a 5%pa rise (96 @ $36, 15 @$95) but again RWT fights for the fruit, and goodness knows what is happening to the volumes produced.

They're not the only ones - Henschke has done similar things with pricing - but I won't play that game, sorry.
Graeme

Err Graeme...short answer no
2012 Mt Ed I manged to source 3 bottles at all places from 1C for $110...2014 vintage $225 a rise of 100%+
Are you suggesting (and wish it was the case) that 2016 Bin 707 is $99...might even buy some off the back of that truck
Cheers
craig

Tried 28,389 and St henri in passing at local Droogie McTavish. time, time, time for these wines.
Particularly 389 and St Henri.
Had a sneaky 2012 389 taste courtesy of host and it's in a really great spot. Will be a belter in 8-10 years and onwards.
got a few of these. tempted to bust one out based on the current state of play. but....hold.

Scotty vino wrote: Had a sneaky 2012 389 taste courtesy of host and it's in a really great spot. Will be a belter in 8-10 years and onwards.
got a few of these. tempted to bust one out based on the current state of play. but....hold.

Nice... that's basically the only Penfolds wine I have (have 5 of those + 1 2012 JWT and 6x of the "famous" 2010 St Henri... plus one or two left of the 2003 Bin 28/Bin 128 which I got at the time for about $16.99/bttl)

phillisc wrote: Err Graeme...short answer no
2012 Mt Ed I manged to source 3 bottles at all places from 1C for $110...2014 vintage $225 a rise of 100%+
Are you suggesting (and wish it was the case) that 2016 Bin 707 is $99...might even buy some off the back of that truck
Cheers
craig

Sorry - my typo on the Bin 707. Not $99 but $599. That's what I ran the numbers on.

Think I paid $35 for the 93 Edelstone. What's it now? $220? $180? for the 2014? That'd be 8-9% a year.
Perhaps Edelstone was relatively well-priced until post 2010 vintages. But not now!
Graeme

GraemeG wrote:

phillisc wrote: Err Graeme...short answer no
2012 Mt Ed I manged to source 3 bottles at all places from 1C for $110...2014 vintage $225 a rise of 100%+
Are you suggesting (and wish it was the case) that 2016 Bin 707 is $99...might even buy some off the back of that truck
Cheers
craig

Sorry - my typo on the Bin 707. Not $99 but $599. That's what I ran the numbers on.

Think I paid $35 for the 93 Edelstone. What's it now? $220? $180? for the 2014? That'd be 8-9% a year.
Perhaps Edelstone was relatively well-priced until post 2010 vintages. But not now!
Graeme

Yes Graeme, thought so...just messing with you
Would be interesting to see post 2010...that's where the real price rises have taken place I reckon.
Cheers craig

For the first year in a long time I won't be buying - so looks like last years Bin release will be my last. I don't begrudge an Australian company being successful and making money - good on em - not for me anymore though.

Stopped buying 707 a few years ago, 407 stopped a couple of years ago and last year was down to St Henri, 389 and 138. I feel some sadness over this, it always felt special opening a Penfolds and I used to eagerly await the bin release each year.

Now thanks to the Brisbane Auswine crew I'm drinking whacky gear gown on the side of volcanoes, discovering skin contact wines that remind me of Fanta and of course there is Marius. Still a massive world of wine to discover and I find myself now deliberately looking for something different whenever I can.

Thank You Penfolds - and Goodbye

Rednick wrote:For the first year in a long time I won't be buying - so looks like last years Bin release will be my last. I don't begrudge an Australian company being successful and making money - good on em - not for me anymore though.

Stopped buying 707 a few years ago, 407 stopped a couple of years ago and last year was down to St Henri, 389 and 138. I feel some sadness over this, it always felt special opening a Penfolds and I used to eagerly await the bin release each year.

Now thanks to the Brisbane Auswine crew I'm drinking whacky gear gown on the side of volcanoes, discovering skin contact wines that remind me of Fanta and of course there is Marius. Still a massive world of wine to discover and I find myself now deliberately looking for something different whenever I can.

Thank You Penfolds - and Goodbye

I have hardly bought anything in the last 10 years - a smattering of 2010s, 2012s and a 2013 389. Instead of saying goodbye, it's been like a relationship that I have refused to admit is over.....

I would suggest we do a "Goodbye Penfolds" offline, just to find an excuse to open a 100 point 2010 St Henri, but I think a straight Penfolds offline might be a bit one dimensional. What do others think??

Cheers

Michael

I've done plenty of Penfolds dinners over the years, and they've invariably been a smashing success, although there have been very few wines post-2005 involved. Stuff from the 80s & 90s is usually pretty dependable at Bin 389 level & up (but never 407 which is reliably disappointing except for 1990).

https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=37988
https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=34321
https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=30961
https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=28183
https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=18836
https://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=13184

cheers,
Graeme

There does not to be appear to be a lot of love for Penfold's Reds on here, but their position in the top 3 red brands of Australia seems reasonably cemented. They currently rank third behind Jacobs Creek & Wolf Blass. This data is driven by the consumer.

GraemeG wrote:I've done plenty of Penfolds dinners over the years, and they've invariably been a smashing success, although there have been very few wines post-2005 involved. Stuff from the 80s & 90s is usually pretty dependable at Bin 389 level & up (but never 407 which is reliably disappointing except for 1990).

cheers,
Graeme

So far I’ve never tried a 407 I enjoyed. I’m curious to know how other rate this wine.

Mark

1990s wines were priced to compete, and I suspect most here would have bought them (unless they were too young at the time!). I offer no criticism of that era, though I did discover the house style wasn't one I like to drink too often. That same comment is true of a lot of South Aussie producers of the time, with some exceptions.

Fast forward to the 2000s era wines, and they were were clearly trying to position the brands at the top pricing level of each segment, at times seemingly in a bizarre upwards pricing war with Henschke.

Now in the 2010s the asking prices are bloated beyond belief, and well past the level I see any value, a view echoed by many (most?) here.

I suspect other tasting events will be a similar success, or arguably more warmly received, as the attendees may no longer be able to afford to buy them, so tasting mature examples becomes a rare treat.

Bin407? No no positives from me, though I never liked the Bin707, so I'd put it down to the Penfolds style not working for me when they make Cabernet Sauvignon wines. Wynns was always an easy preference choice to make.

rooman wrote:

GraemeG wrote:I've done plenty of Penfolds dinners over the years, and they've invariably been a smashing success, although there have been very few wines post-2005 involved. Stuff from the 80s & 90s is usually pretty dependable at Bin 389 level & up (but never 407 which is reliably disappointing except for 1990).

cheers,
Graeme

So far I’ve never tried a 407 I enjoyed. I’m curious to know how other rate this wine.

Mark

I had the ‘90 407 once and it was a good wine.

Wayno wrote:

rooman wrote:

GraemeG wrote:I've done plenty of Penfolds dinners over the years, and they've invariably been a smashing success, although there have been very few wines post-2005 involved. Stuff from the 80s & 90s is usually pretty dependable at Bin 389 level & up (but never 407 which is reliably disappointing except for 1990).

cheers,
Graeme

So far I’ve never tried a 407 I enjoyed. I’m curious to know how other rate this wine.

Mark

I had the ‘90 407 once and it was a good wine.

Fair enough. Would you collect current 407s? I'm curious because whilst I will cellar the Penfolds shiraz wines, I have never seemed to collect the 407.

I wouldn't even buy Bin 407 if it was routinely available at $30.
I also happen to think Penfolds wines were much better balanced at 13.5% alcohol than the 14.5% which seemed to be standard across the range from about 2001.
All of which explains why the outrageous price rises haven't perturbed me too much - I just stopped buying.
Graeme

Mark, Grange as good as it is (well the opinions of others, been a while since I have had one) is somewhat of a liability for Pennies when it comes to considering Cabernet.
707, 7 times the price, and in the next galaxy in terms of marketing presence/acceptance
169, 4 times the price, a sporadic release and trying to be the Coonawarra show pony

So there is this massive void in the Cabernet portfolio and 407 is stuck at the very bottom of it

Then there are a few premium cab/Shiraz blends....both from Pennies and more recently others

Not sure why Pennies don't make a single region wine from Coonawarra on a par with 128...(that said 128 is the worst wine in the portfolio, perhaps something happens to the grapes in the truck on their way up to Adelaide).
They could have a wine that punters would actually buy...if Wynns can shift 120 000 cases of BL, then Pennies should be able to do the same with an equivalent.

I think the real issue is Cabernet is a fickle beast and what fruit there is that is of top quality goes else where and you are then paying a hell of a lot of money for a wine that is thrashed by 20 other Coonawarra Cabernets at 1/2 to 1/3 the price...and that's the problem.

All the 407s that I have tried have been green and lean.
Cheers craig

Ian S wrote:1990s wines were priced to compete, and I suspect most here would have bought them (unless they were too young at the time!). I offer no criticism of that era, though I did discover the house style wasn't one I like to drink too often. That same comment is true of a lot of South Aussie producers of the time, with some exceptions.

Fast forward to the 2000s era wines, and they were were clearly trying to position the brands at the top pricing level of each segment, at times seemingly in a bizarre upwards pricing war with Henschke.

Now in the 2010s the asking prices are bloated beyond belief, and well past the level I see any value, a view echoed by many (most?) here.

I suspect other tasting events will be a similar success, or arguably more warmly received, as the attendees may no longer be able to afford to buy them, so tasting mature examples becomes a rare treat.

Bin407? No no positives from me, though I never liked the Bin707, so I'd put it down to the Penfolds style not working for me when they make Cabernet Sauvignon wines. Wynns was always an easy preference choice to make.

Well said Ian.

Rick

phillisc wrote:
Not sure why Pennies don't make a single region wine from Coonawarra on a par with 128...(that said 128 is the worst wine in the portfolio, perhaps something happens to the grapes in the truck on their way up to Adelaide).
They could have a wine that punters would actually buy...if Wynns can shift 120 000 cases of BL, then Pennies should be able to do the same with an equivalent.

Um Craig, Wynns and Pennies are owned by the same company... maybe they figure there isn't enough demand in the market to shift 240,000 cases of Coonawarra cab so to create a Pennies equivalent of BL would just cannibalize their existing market share

rooman wrote:

Wayno wrote:

rooman wrote:
So far I’ve never tried a 407 I enjoyed. I’m curious to know how other rate this wine.

Mark

I had the ‘90 407 once and it was a good wine.

Fair enough. Would you collect current 407s? I'm curious because whilst I will cellar the Penfolds shiraz wines, I have never seemed to collect the 407.

No, the 407 range I have always found a bit boring although I haven’t had one for some years.

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deleted

sjw_11 wrote:

phillisc wrote:
Not sure why Pennies don't make a single region wine from Coonawarra on a par with 128...(that said 128 is the worst wine in the portfolio, perhaps something happens to the grapes in the truck on their way up to Adelaide).
They could have a wine that punters would actually buy...if Wynns can shift 120 000 cases of BL, then Pennies should be able to do the same with an equivalent.

Um Craig, Wynns and Pennies are owned by the same company... maybe they figure there isn't enough demand in the market to shift 240,000 cases of Coonawarra cab so to create a Pennies equivalent of BL would just cannibalize their existing market share

Sam , yes...just throwing out the challenge. I'm pretty sure with all the access to top Coonawarra fruit and wine making expertise Pennies could do a $30-40 wine...that's if they wanted to. Perhaps it could be a Bin 107, they like 7's or a 109...a baby 169

Cheers Craig

I think it’s easy to bag Penfolds because of their pricing policy, and introduction of new labels which dilute historically significant wines. But aside from well documented failures (407 and 128 are exhibits A and B), there is no doubt they make some sensational wines. And to not acknowledge that IMO borders on myopic, even if American oak isn’t your go. Grange, Special Bins are exhibits C and D.

Make no mistake, I’ve sacked Penfolds and Henschke from my buying list because of their price rises. But I’d be delighted to drink their top labels if someone else is paying... and if we owned Pennies, my guess is many of us would charge what the market will bear.

Just my 2 cents... Mike

phillisc wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:

phillisc wrote:
Not sure why Pennies don't make a single region wine from Coonawarra on a par with 128...(that said 128 is the worst wine in the portfolio, perhaps something happens to the grapes in the truck on their way up to Adelaide).
They could have a wine that punters would actually buy...if Wynns can shift 120 000 cases of BL, then Pennies should be able to do the same with an equivalent.

Um Craig, Wynns and Pennies are owned by the same company... maybe they figure there isn't enough demand in the market to shift 240,000 cases of Coonawarra cab so to create a Pennies equivalent of BL would just cannibalize their existing market share

Sam , yes...just throwing out the challenge. I'm pretty sure with all the access to top Coonawarra fruit and wine making expertise Pennies could do a $30-40 wine...that's if they wanted to. Perhaps it could be a Bin 107, they like 7's or a 109...a baby 169

Cheers Craig

Bin 888?

Last Penfolds purchases of mine are a virgin 6 Pack of 2006 Grange which I scored from a supermarket clearance for $1600, a 6 pack of 2010 St Henri at $80pb from memory, and a 2005 Cellar Selection Cabernet Sauvignon for $90

Haven't purchased 389 since the 2004 which I found for $25pb although I have been given the odd bottle, oh and a couple of Yattarna for $25 on clearance at a supermarket too

I guess the bargain "show and tell" illustrates one thing; unless price is crazy I have been totally out for <> 5 years

Mike Hawkins wrote:I think it’s easy to bag Penfolds because of their pricing policy, and introduction of new labels which dilute historically significant wines. But aside from well documented failures (407 and 128 are exhibits A and B), there is no doubt they make some sensational wines. And to not acknowledge that IMO borders on myopic, even if American oak isn’t your go. Grange, Special Bins are exhibits C and D.

Make no mistake, I’ve sacked Penfolds and Henschke from my buying list because of their price rises. But I’d be delighted to drink their top labels if someone else is paying... and if we owned Pennies, my guess is many of us would charge what the market will bear.

Just my 2 cents... Mike

Mike +1...happy if someone wants to pour Magill, 169, block 42 down my throat, will suffer quietly ...but aint ever gonna happen

Interestingly if I was ever in the position to own a winery I certainly would not be charging the outrageous prices of Pennies, Henschke et al.
Instead, I would go down the Drew Noon path...humble beginnings, great ethos and maintaining the tradition of his father David (absolute super bloke who I had the pleasure of meeting many times) and $29 for the Reserve Shiraz...I have been on the mailer for 8 years now...the wine has gone up from $22 to $29!!!
In the annual release newsletter Drew writes an extensive piece on the $100 wine...and long story short states that he can't see from a cost point of view why a winemaker would need to charge that much when price per bottle to make comes nowhere near, (funny, same sentiments of a very vocal forumite on here bemoaning the latest basket press price) and two, from a marketing perspective its simply a joke (my words not Drew's).
Pleasingly, Noon will never have their wines priced anywhere near this and that's a great thing.

My 2 cents
Cheers Craig

I agree with you to an extent Craig. But lets say Grange still retailed at $100, but went at auction for $600... I want the money to go to the producer, not some bloke who flipped it 2 days after buying it. Small producer Napa Cabernets used to follow that model, and so the producers wisely decided to jack the price up and keep the money themselves.

Wait and see how much 15 BP will end up at auction in the next 6 months... it’s quite pathetic actually. I understand if people want to sell off excess wine or wine they no longer like, but seriously, 2 weeks after owning it, just to make 100 bucks?

Mike, did not consider the flippers, but yes it could be best that the profit stays with the winemaker.
I agree with you regarding all the arseholes who flog Wendouree and BP just weeks after its released...not so much an issue for sourcing Rockford, as its a reasonable make plus publicly available, but for those who would like a few bottles of Brady's for a reasonable price... then yes its salt in the wound!

Interesting re '14 Grange that RRP is $900...street price at the chains $755...auction price ??? (might be a decade before it consistently returns what some may consider a decent profit...20+%) and decades more before it doubles in price.
If you look at some of the 90s Granges (particularly less favoured vintages, 92-95, 97 and 99) their release price would not be far away from the current second hand market price...so might as well enjoy them.

As for Noon's think Drew is not too fussed, that there are a few less arseholes flipping...and the price for the Reserve has peaked, and heading south of $100 if recent auction results are anything to go by.

Cheers Craig

Michael McNally wrote:
I have hardly bought anything in the last 10 years - a smattering of 2010s, 2012s and a 2013 389. Instead of saying goodbye, it's been like a relationship that I have refused to admit is over.....

I would suggest we do a "Goodbye Penfolds" offline, just to find an excuse to open a 100 point 2010 St Henri, but I think a straight Penfolds offline might be a bit one dimensional. What do others think??

Cheers

Michael

Nice idea Michael, happy to give it a go - I don't have any whites but a fair selection of the reds. We could always have some fizz or other ring ins to start.

Cheers - Nick

Stomper wrote:Bin 888?

How aboout Bin 666?

Craig(NZ) wrote:Haven't purchased 389 since the 2004 which I found for $25pb ... unless price is crazy I have been totally out for <> 5 years

Same here, $25 for the '04 and '05 Bin 389 a long time ago ......... but for a crazy price of '06 St Henri for about $35, am also out for more than five years.

Mahmoud.

I'd started buying BIN 389 as a nice Christmas wine to age but I realised that I'd started buying at the wrong time. I have 3 of the 2010, 2012 and 2013 and after seeing the rate at which it was increasing, I ditched that plan.

I tasted those three and felt the 28 was so-so, the 389 was pretty good but the St Henri was closed.