The Auswine Forum

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Perhaps I'm being pedantic

No perhaps about it Mahmoud, but then that's part of the fun! Where would a forum be without its pendants (deliberate typo for newer forumites...)

Just because something is the best in its class doesn't mean it isn't the best QPR. Quite the opposite - if its the best in its class and relatively cheap then surely it qualifies. It is more likely that a QPR winner will be a wine that delivers very high quality at a lower price, but if the highest price wine is light years ahead of the competition in terms of quality then it fits the bill surely.

International comparisons are an interesting digression.

I attempted thread correction because QPR was being defined as just quaffers, and it's not.

Cheers

Michael

Umm, QPR just being defined as quaffers...
Well where do we go with this then .
Gee I would like to be able to knock of Grosett PH, a Wynns BL or even a Wendouree everyday, whenever I felt like it, as often as I liked.
Would either need to buy another 100 cases or get a new liver.
On the basis that QPR being defined as just quaffers i.e cheap then clearly I am selling myself short.
Perhaps I need to get rid of my old runabout and trade for a C-class or a 3-series, definite quality and should be an everyday drive.

Interesting the definition of quaffer, or derived from the noun quaff is to drink heartily...especially alcohol.
Therefore price is irrelevant in a QPR ratio...perhaps VFM should be the direction of this thread.
Cheers
Craig.

I had no idea that Wendouree could be had for as low as $45 only. Only ever seeing it at a Vintage Cellars in Sydney for over a hundred and tarija's comment about "two for one" against the Wynn's had me assuming that it was at least double the price. A look at wine searcher shows that the chapest Wendouree at retail is a Cabernet-Malbec for $90 and much more for the others. However, at $45, I too would consider it a candidate for QPR, at least for the insiders on the mailing list, as it would be not far off the price of a Black Label. I apologize for the error.

Needless to say the Wendouree is not available here in Canada (as far as I know). The Black Label has been here for quite some time, at least since the 1996 vintage, and at $13.50 back then, it fell into the "quaffer", QPR, and "bang for the buck" categories. Paul's mention of the Black Label not being known in the US piqued my curiosity so I went to the Wine Beserker forum (not one of my haunts) and found some commentary, dating back to 2011, about Wynn's having pulled out of the US market. One poster, having consulted Wine-Searcher Pro, thought Wynn's had disappeared from the US market after the 2005 vintage. Others posters on the thread seem to concur, noticing that they hadn't seen it in years. Perhaps that accounts for the lack of recognition in the US. One poster remarked "At $10-12 a bottle I always thought Wynns black label line were some of the best wines for the price you could find. At the high end, the John Riddoch was a good deal for the quality."

That poster's remark has me thinking (at least from my perspective) that wines that are "the best wines for the price", as in QPR, are those that offer value at the lower to moderate price spectrum (I'm thinking of the averager punter), and "a good deal for the quality" can apply to wines further up the price scale. A few months ago I came across some Annie's Lane Copper Trail selling for $20 a bottle. At that price I would have said that it was a good QPR wine and wouldn't have hesitated recommending it to anyone. However, if it were $30 I would probably have said it was a good deal considering it sells for at least $45 or more in Australia. I guess QPR means slightly different things to different people. And what would a wine forum be without something to discuss.

My two cents, and feel free to round down now that the penny has been discontinued here in Canada.

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud, I note your observations about Wynns and the US with interest.
I suspect that Australian Cabernet is a hard sell in the US, for every BL there would be 20 similar. As for trying to flog a $AUD150 cab in North America, forget it. Long history of Aussies flogging 2 buck chuck in the US, not high end premium Cabernet.
It appears that TWE's general thrust ( Wynns in particular) is the Chinese market. The 2012 Alex 88 single vineyard release for example was hardly seen in the Australian domestic market, the wine maker said it was an export exclusive. Very thankful that Ian manged to get a bottle for the Adelaide fine wine tasting last year, and I then manged to pick up 12 myself.

Interestingly, if the twitter feed is anything to go buy, Wynns seem to have a presence and their winemakers spend a bit of time up your way Mahmoud.

Cheers
Craig.

Any sub $10 Australian wine is a hard sell in USA. Still the perception remains among most serious American wine fans that Australian wines are all Mollydooker/Torbreck style.

Mahmoud - I see where you are coming from now. Fortunately, it is not that hard to get onto Wendouree's mailing list - a kind letter and I got on first year. Wendouree a shining light in an industry where many wineries are Penfoldsing and moving to luxury pricing.

tarija wrote:Any sub $10 Australian wine is a hard sell in USA. Still the perception remains among most serious American wine fans that Australian wines are all Mollydooker/Torbreck style.

Mahmoud - I see where you are coming from now. Fortunately, it is not that hard to get onto Wendouree's mailing list - a kind letter and I got on first year. Wendouree a shining light in an industry where many wineries are Penfoldsing and moving to luxury pricing.

+1
Cheers
Craig

phillisc wrote:Umm, QPR just being defined as quaffers...
Well where do we go with this then .
Gee I would like to be able to knock of Grosett PH, a Wynns BL or even a Wendouree everyday, whenever I felt like it, as often as I liked.
Would either need to buy another 100 cases or get a new liver.
On the basis that QPR being defined as just quaffers i.e cheap then clearly I am selling myself short.
Perhaps I need to get rid of my old runabout and trade for a C-class or a 3-series, definite quality and should be an everyday drive.

Interesting the definition of quaffer, or derived from the noun quaff is to drink heartily...especially alcohol.
Therefore price is irrelevant in a QPR ratio...perhaps VFM should be the direction of this thread.
Cheers
Craig.

Not sure when this thread defined QPR as quaffers, I certainly didn't!

Like I said, by definition, its a ratio between price and quality, if they are both high, say 100 each, then a wine might qualify, QPR = 1. If they are both low, say 50 each, then it still might qualify, QPR = 1. If price is high and quality low, say 50Q and 100P, then, no it doesn't cut the mustard, QPR = 0.5. (caveat that numbers are meaningless, its all subjective)

Craig, you mentioned VFM as something different. Its not imo, its the SAME thing.

odyssey wrote:

Scotty vino wrote:I wouldn't go over complicating the meaning of QPR.
Essentially it's bang for buck.

This.

Tyrrell's HVD semillon, planted 1908, with the 2010 found under $30 fairly hard to argue with.

At a recent blind tasting with a $20 price cap Gemtree Uncut Shiraz and Journeys End The Embarkment Shiraz came equal first both outstanding and had everyone gagging for more. There were 8 different bottles tasted by a group of eager punters.
Having said that, i dare anyone to suggest a better QPR wine than Three Brothers Reunited Shiraz $10 at Nicks. Pice hasn't moved for years, why would you ever buy a cleanskin again!

Michael McNally wrote:Just because something is the best in its class doesn't mean it isn't the best QPR. Quite the opposite - if its the best in its class and relatively cheap then surely it qualifies. It is more likely that a QPR winner will be a wine that delivers very high quality at a lower price, but if the highest price wine is light years ahead of the competition in terms of quality then it fits the bill surely.

Agree completely, and is what I meant though perhaps not so succinctly. When I used the term top tier I was referring to price, not quality, hence the possible confusion. I'm not convinced that the highest priced wine in any category could be said to be a QPR wine in the conventional use of the term.

paulf wrote:Personally, I think Riesling is where the best value is found in Australia (although to be fair I just don't know enough about the semillon). Along with the Pikes which has already been mentioned, I reckon the O'Leary Walker Polish Hill is consistently excellent as is the Jim Barry Lodge Hill (the Watervale is also always a good QPR but I'd pay the extra couple of dollars for the Lodge Hill every time). Hell, I could even make a strong case for the Crawford River Young Vines and the Mt Horricks, even though both of these aren't super cheap.

A good point about Australian riesling, no doubt about that. While most of these rieslings are good value, a QPR riesling would be a subset as defined by Michael above, a wine that delivers quality at a lower price. Therefore in my universe top tier (price not quality or reputation) wines are not QPR wines.

Hpn3 wrote:Tyrrell's HVD semillon, planted 1908, with the 2010 found under $30 fairly hard to argue with.

Bingo, perfect example. Vat 1 is one of the top tier semillons of the Hunter Valley and while some may find value in it, to my way of thinking (flawed though it might be), it is the HVD that is the QPR wine.

Mahmoud.

If someone's opinion is that a particular $50 semillon is 3 times better than all the $25 semillons it is better ratio. "times better" is purely subjective here, as is the entire thread.

In addition to this, the thread was not asking for best in class, best in category or best comparitive to the same grape variety. If you want to take it that way, that's your prerogative but it's inappropriate to require others to.

If someone wants to say X wine is best QPR that's their opinion and is entirely valid in a thread based on asking people for their opinion.

Fundamentally I see QPR merely as how is the wine priced vs. what I'd be happy to pay for it. Great QPR has them pricing it quite a bit below what I'd pay, bad QPR has them pricing it more than I would pay.