The Auswine Forum

sjw_11 wrote:
In terms of the argument that this means a wine that suffered initially from reduction will always do so, or Jamie's comment that under screw cap "time may not heal winemaking or bottling errors"... Umm, why are you wanting to buy faulty wine in the first place?

I read this as not saying cork would hide faults, but that early screwcap bottlings caught a few producers out when they applied the usual amount of SO2, but much less was needed under screwcap.

sjw_11 wrote:I am not convinced that wine under screw cap will show NO development, even over say twenty years. My experience of screw cap wines of 5-10yrs indicates distinctive development just with far less evidence of detractive oxidation/tertiary characters developing and a greater level of "freshness" (consistent with many other comments here, and a descriptor I would rarely see as a negative).

I must admit that this worries me a little, that I age wines (in part) for the sometimes unique tertiary aromas / flavours they reveal. If the ageing means these don't emerge, then a part of what I seek may be lost. The early screwcap trials (and bottles following the revival) have shown that they do develop and show tertiary elements, but what I don't have a feel for is whether it is the same range (accepting that it will be beyond my lifetime to find out where screwcapped Barolo ends up). Happy to hear views on this.

Ian S wrote:Yes it is something to 'ready yourself for' before posting there. There is usually at least one sociopath on duty every day, and sometimes they have team bonding sessions on the forum.

Brilliant! And thanks for the link, it perfectly illustrated your point.

Mahmoud.

Very good to know that Australians don't need lawyers at 40 paces when discussing opinions on wine closures!

This discussion has been a beaut, and Mahmood's pretty spot on with the "SC closure science is settled" attitude on this forum from time to time - I would be guilty of that myself a few years back, but have am a little more open now. Not least through discussions with wine-makers whose wine I enjoy. I was unaware earlier of the variability of cork closures, and of the arguable "fact" that someone managed to flood the Oz market with shit corks a few decades back .

Elizabeth Morris at Pennyweight, and Julian Castagna have both made passionate defences of cork and/or diam in discussion, and I've yet to experience a corked wine from either. I will purchase from them with confidence under whatever closure they choose to use.

I think the development of Roger Pike's wines under SC is a copybook example that development can and will occur productively under the closure in relatively short time frame. Hoddles Creek the other maker whose work I have cellared and consumed alarmingly frequently is a great example of complexity and age under SC. And pretty quickly too considering.

It's a raffle, you assess the odds, you make your move. But definite answers? Can't see one at present.

Ian S wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:I am not convinced that wine under screw cap will show NO development, even over say twenty years. My experience of screw cap wines of 5-10yrs indicates distinctive development just with far less evidence of detractive oxidation/tertiary characters developing and a greater level of "freshness" (consistent with many other comments here, and a descriptor I would rarely see as a negative).

I must admit that this worries me a little, that I age wines (in part) for the sometimes unique tertiary aromas / flavours they reveal. If the ageing means these don't emerge, then a part of what I seek may be lost. The early screwcap trials (and bottles following the revival) have shown that they do develop and show tertiary elements, but what I don't have a feel for is whether it is the same range (accepting that it will be beyond my lifetime to find out where screwcapped Barolo ends up). Happy to hear views on this.

Totally concur. I have a predilection for aged german rieslings, some of which at 30 years under cork are just starting to show what they can be. I'm not likely to meet my grandson's son and so how would I even know if he's going to a appreciate a 70-yo TBA as it's approaching maturity under screwcap?

Interesting topic. I am becoming a little frustrated in SC. Not much but there are a few faint alarm bells ringing. White seem OK reds at 10+ years taste like 3-5 years old and flavours a little muted. "Tight" is the best way I can describe it. No failures though. Also I have noticed an improvement in failed wines under cork. Got one a few days ago at a wine and cheese bar in USA. 2014 Argentinian Malbec. Promptly replaced. Can't remember the last one although haven't had a lot recently.

I have read SCs are being improved with varying degrees of air intake being developed. But the early SCs may be an issue over time. Hope not...

Carl

I'm not sure if time is going to heal some of these issues I'm noting in some early SC wines. Hard primary fruit yet the tannin seems to be aging and integrating quicker, giving an overall, unbalanced structural softness .

It's not a SC versus cork debate it's just going to suck if you end up with this "lard effect " on some prized wines .

JamieBahrain wrote:I'm not sure if time is going to heal some of these issues I'm noting in some early SC wines. Hard primary fruit yet the tannin seems to be aging and integrating quicker, giving an overall, unbalanced structural softness .

It's not a SC versus cork debate it's just going to suck if you end up with this "lard effect " on some prized wines .

"Hard" in a better descriptor. Thanks Jamie.

Carl

JamieBahrain wrote:I'm not sure if time is going to heal some of these issues I'm noting in some early SC wines. Hard primary fruit yet the tannin seems to be aging and integrating quicker, giving an overall, unbalanced structural softness .

It's not a SC versus cork debate it's just going to suck if you end up with this "lard effect " on some prized wines .

Jamie, it is definitely a thing that's been proven before to be the case. I believe you're picking up reductiveness there in the form of a thiol accumulation which causes wine to taste 'hard and kind of flat'. Alan Limmer from Stonecroft in NZ did some work on this about 10 years ago. It's a flaw that's not easy to pick up and like almost all wine flaws (as opposed to taints and faults), the more one is exposed to them the more tolerant one becomes.

I'm not sure if you can acquire copper sulphate (the old copper coin/wire trick) where you are but a blind comparison of two glasses from the same bottle with a drop or so in one glass and none in the other will prove or disprove the theory. High tannin wines are the worse affected by anaerobic maturation.

As Brian Croser said, 'The whole discussion should be about the interaction of oxygen and wine in the ageing process'.

I don't get to fired up about these things, but there has never been a single bigger leap forward for Hunter Sem than screwcap. It's amazing how much of a difference they have made to the quality of aged wines. I think white wine is very much a 'case closed' for screwcap. I've seen enough to be absolutely convinced of superiority of screwcap. Cork is a disaster for white wine.

Gary W wrote: Cork is a disaster for white wine.

Even Jura white?
Vin Jaune might last 1000 years under screwcap!

Seriously though. Agree about Hunter semillion. Love the vat 1's under screwcap.

There is an argument that SC can mask poor storage whereas poorly stored bottles under cork are identifiable although in some circumstances excess heat is hard to detect until the cork is pulled.

Carl

The other day I was looking at a couple of New Zealand Chardonnays, both from the 2009 vintage and both from Marlborough, a Greywacke and a Dog Point. The Greywacke was screw capped and the Dog Point had a cork seal. I knew of the reputation of Greywacke, mainly for their Sauvignon Blanc but not the Dog Point. My only concern was the quality of wine, and how, at seven years of age, they might be holding up. At no point did the type of seal enter the equation. Of course, as already discussed here, the evolution of wine, red or white, is different under cork or screw cap, but whatever the evolution, I am only interested in the quality of the wine when bottled, how the wine was stored, how it is drinking now, and how much evolution and development remains. And yes, to state the obvious, there is only one way to find out.

If anybody wants to contribute to my knowledge of these two wines, please feel free to post, it would be appreciated.

Cheers.....................Mahmoud.

Chuck wrote:There is an argument that SC can mask poor storage whereas poorly stored bottles under cork are identifiable although in some circumstances excess heat is hard to detect until the cork is pulled.

Do you mean to say that heated affected white wines under screw cap will not darken, at least to the same degree, as compared to cork? Interesting, if that is indeed the case, that is news to me.

Mahmoud.

If you want to see how beautifully/gracefully red wine also ages under screw cap, get your hands on a bottle of Marius 2002 shiraz under screw cap. While I was saying to myself that I should keep some bottles of this wine to see how far it goes/develops, I couldn't keep my hands off and pitifully drank my last bottle last year from 2 dozens I bought back in 2005 cause it was so damn good.
Hey, Roger r u following this thread. Do you have any 2002 left in your museum stock? if you do, If I were you I would organise a tasting with it to shut up screw cap haters

Mahmoud Ali wrote:The other day I was looking at a couple of New Zealand Chardonnays, both from the 2009 vintage and both from Marlborough, a Greywacke and a Dog Point. The Greywacke was screw capped and the Dog Point had a cork seal. I knew of the reputation of Greywacke, mainly for their Sauvignon Blanc but not the Dog Point. My only concern was the quality of wine, and how, at seven years of age, they might be holding up. At no point did the type of seal enter the equation. Of course, as already discussed here, the evolution of wine, red or white, is different under cork or screw cap, but whatever the evolution, I am only interested in the quality of the wine when bottled, how the wine was stored, how it is drinking now, and how much evolution and development remains. And yes, to state the obvious, there is only one way to find out.

If anybody wants to contribute to my knowledge of these two wines, please feel free to post, it would be appreciated.

Cheers.....................Mahmoud.

Dog Point is a benchmark NZ SB. Great producer.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

Chuck wrote:There is an argument that SC can mask poor storage whereas poorly stored bottles under cork are identifiable although in some circumstances excess heat is hard to detect until the cork is pulled.

Do you mean to say that heated affected white wines under screw cap will not darken, at least to the same degree, as compared to cork? Interesting, if that is indeed the case, that is news to me.

Mahmoud.

100% right. White wines you can see by colour. Red wines, there is a case, though colour is a clue too, but too late when opening bottle.

ufo

Please , this is not religious fanatasism,it's a discussion . I'm not a screw cap hater I've observed scew cap stunt in some early reds. Be more than happy if all is well !

Scotty vino wrote:With the SC v Cork debate in mind...
Why is 2010 Pennies 707 under SC and
2010 Grange under cork?
I get a sense that if Grange was sealed with a screw cap
then its icon status might be compromised.
Is it possible that the theatre and lack of appeal of a screw cap
is more important than what the cork brings to the table as a closure?
I would've thought that the aging potential of 707 and Grange are pretty similar.
So why different.

707 and most of the pennies reds (grange excluded) bottled under cork and screw cap. All depends on the market they are destined for. Europe Asia and USA are cork usually. If an allocation sells out in oz, other available allocations are sent

Mahmoud Ali wrote:The other day I was looking at a couple of New Zealand Chardonnays, both from the 2009 vintage and both from Marlborough, a Greywacke and a Dog Point. The Greywacke was screw capped and the Dog Point had a cork seal. I knew of the reputation of Greywacke, mainly for their Sauvignon Blanc but not the Dog Point. My only concern was the quality of wine, and how, at seven years of age, they might be holding up. At no point did the type of seal enter the equation. Of course, as already discussed here, the evolution of wine, red or white, is different under cork or screw cap, but whatever the evolution, I am only interested in the quality of the wine when bottled, how the wine was stored, how it is drinking now, and how much evolution and development remains. And yes, to state the obvious, there is only one way to find out.

If anybody wants to contribute to my knowledge of these two wines, please feel free to post, it would be appreciated.

Cheers.....................Mahmoud.

Dog Point Section 97 is a must buy every year for me. Best NZ SB for my money. Pretty funky at times but ages beautifully and the funk blows off

ufo wrote:If you want to see how beautifully/gracefully red wine also ages under screw cap, get your hands on a bottle of Marius 2002 shiraz under screw cap ... if you do, If I were you I would organise a tasting with it to shut up screw cap haters.

Maybe I've missed something here but I don't recall reading anything in these posts which could be characterized as "screw cap haters". Jamie said that he had issues with some early screw cap wines from about a decade ago - please note, some wines, not all.

Gary W wrote:Dog Point is a benchmark NZ SB. Great producer.

Yes, both Dog Point and Greywacke are great SB producers, but what about their Chardonnays, and in particular their 2009 vintage of Chardonnay.

Gary W wrote:White wines you can see by colour. Red wines, there is a case, though colour is a clue too, but too late when opening bottle.

Agreed, but what I was wondering is why would heat affect the colour of a white wine under cork and not screw cap?

Cheers.......................Mahmoud.

rossmckay wrote:Dog Point Section 97 is a must buy every year for me. Best NZ SB for my money. Pretty funky at times but ages beautifully and the funk blows off

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's Section 94. Te Koko can be worth a look too, although a bit heavier on the oak influence. Both very interesting and I love most Dog Point wines. Hard to compete with Sancerre though in terms of this 'less typical NZ' style.

TiggerK wrote:

rossmckay wrote:Dog Point Section 97 is a must buy every year for me. Best NZ SB for my money. Pretty funky at times but ages beautifully and the funk blows off

Sorry to be pedantic, but it's Section 94. Te Koko can be worth a look too, although a bit heavier on the oak influence. Both very interesting and I love most Dog Point wines. Hard to compete with Sancerre though in terms of this 'less typical NZ' style.

No need to apologise for being pedantic, nobody else does.

A long time ago, back in the 90s, the BBC had a series on wine hosted by Jancis Robinson BBC. I remember making it a point to sit in front of the telly every week to watch each episode. Here is a link to the one on Riesling, where she says that Riesling is the "greatest white wine in the world" and that it "goes with a much wider range of foods than boring old Chardonnay." What has this to do with screw caps you ask? Wait til the 11 minute mark. And keep in mind, Jancis Robinson made this in the 90s, though it might be hard to forget given the hair and fashions at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVbjjNv-fc

Australians today may be upset that Jancis Robinson didn't mention Australia in the Riesling episode, but take a look at Episode 5: Syrah a.k.a. Shiraz. It features Peter Lehman with appearances by Robert O'Callaghan of Rockford, Bob McClean of St Hallet, and the Bethany Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egDb4JS3lik

Cheers....................Mahmoud.

Had a screw capped Kopparossa Shiraz 2002 last night. Decanted for four hours and still no respite from its hard fruit edges. Frankly, would be better in cork !

Interesting thread.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVbjjNv-fc
What has this to do with screw caps you ask? Wait til the 11 minute mark. And keep in mind, Jancis Robinson made this in the 90s

It's not that hard to believe though, with the Stelvin screwcap having been introduced into the Australian wine industry in the 70's, and numeroues wineries were embracing it around 1980.

Unfortunately, the public didn't receive them positively and there was a move back to cork in the 80's by those same wineries. IIRC, it wasn't until the concerted effort by Jeffrey Grosset et al in the early 2000's that the closure became more accepted in the Australian market. I think a lot of the success in the 2000's had to do with the education of wine buyers about closures.

I do agree that the low oxygen transmission rates (OTR) of Stelvin may be a concern for the long term development of some wines. The OTR of Stelvin matches the OTR of the "best" natural corks, but the "best" natural corks have OTR lower than the average natural cork, so most wines under natural cork would age "faster". My experience tends to confirm this, and I am worried that I'm going to have to wait a lot longer for many wines under Stelvin to mature to the same point as I'm used to for natural cork-closed wine.

I am quite surprised that Stelvins with variable OTR haven't taken off yet. That could alleviate the problem, with Stelvin's of higher OTR allowing wines to mature faster. Closures with variable OTR are already well established with technical corks. For example, DIAM offer several corks with different OTR.

(On a separate note on DIAM, in the last two years I've opened over 100 DIAM-sealed wines and I haven't experienced one that's been tainted by TCA. Bear in mind, that's a TCA-affected rate of 0%, compared to the typical rates of between 5% and 20% in non-technical corks. There are some concerns over how the binders used in technical corks might impact wines over the longer term, but I'm not convinced of this being an issue. I guess time will tell.)

I would add that there's one influence a cork closure has on wine that screwcaps don't (that has nothing to do with OTR or TCA and) that I think is often overlooked: flavour impact. Many corks do give a slightly woody note to wines, and in some cases (particularly reds with oak influence) that can be an attractive feature (that I think a lot of people aren't even aware of). It's never a huge impact (with a decent cork and a flavourfull enough wine), but sometimes is can have enough influence to make a difference to (at least) the aroma of a wine.

I think there's a place for both closures (at the moment at least), and I'm sure time will show which kind of OTR winemakers and consumers prefer for which kinds of wine. The closures will adjust accordingly.

So it would seem as though the consensus view is leaning towards the following:

Screwcaps are good because there's no throwaway bottles as the case is with traditional corks
However, there is some evidence (?) to suggest wine development maybe stunted in a screw cap


As such, screw caps are probably better suited toward more fruit forward wines that are supposed to be drunk "young"?

Dragzworthy wrote:So it would seem as though the consensus view is leaning towards the following:

Screwcaps are good because there's no throwaway bottles as the case is with traditional corks
However, there is some evidence (?) to suggest wine development maybe stunted in a screw cap

As such, screw caps are probably better suited toward more fruit forward wines that are supposed to be drunk "young"?

Like most things with wine, there is no 100% consensus view. I would hate for SC to only be used on 'drink young' wines, it misses the whole point of avoiding cork.

I'm sure we all agree on the following.....

Corks are too erratic in their permeability to ensure consistent results when aging wine.
Corks are too often affected by TCA, and it's even more painful when you find out after 20 years of storing that precious bottle!


So for me it's just simply that SC's are a far better closure, even if not perfect. Diam, Ardea, whatever it's all good, I'm just happy with anything that avoids TCA and has consistency of permeability.

I suspect that if some winemakers had taken up the option of a SC with a very slightly higher permeability for some of their red wines 10-15 years ago or so, we'd all be a lot happier. But they likely weren't available then, and I wonder if they are now just too expensive to be seen much? Or perhaps winemakers have adjusted their styles, or (more likely) they know that the vast majority of wine just isn't cellared. Maybe a bit of both.

Cheers
Tim

Cork problems are not an issue at all, customer service is the issue.

I went to Costco last Wednesday night. Front up to the returns counter with two bottles, one a CdP and one Amarone.

'I'd like a refund for these two bottles please.
What is the problem?
This one is corked and this one is cooked.
Eww, that doesn't sound nice. Do you have your card for the refund?'

No problem, no fuss. Faulty packaging, faulty handling, we don't care.

Doesn't solve the problem with those overseas purchases that break your heart, but if you have retailers and wholesalers (Bibendim have done it multiple times too) that respect you as a customer, it's a minor inconveniience.

And what about 10 or 20 year old bottles opened at a special occasion and reeking of tca? Cork problems are very much the issue then. Good luck getting that replaced like for like. And then theres advanced bottles etc etc. It shoudn't be an 'inconvenience', we just need better closures.