The Auswine Forum

2012

Mike Hawkins wrote:2012

Yes might have to get in touch with the winery to see if they can find me one too.
Cheers
Craig

Winesearcher still shows one retailer

2010 bin 170 and agree with the 60a and block 42 of 04.
Maybe the 13 wendourees

Sami-Odi, or someone similar, may well end up in the Legend Category. Old vines, small production, high quality, great packaging. Something like the 2008 Sami-Odi Hoffmann Dallwitz MCMXII Syrah would fit the bill. Personally I think the Little Wines may be a better bet. Not as great, but if the multi vintage solera system ever takes off then these will be considered legends as well.

mychurch wrote:Sami-Odi, or someone similar, may well end up in the Legend Category. Old vines, small production, high quality, great packaging. Something like the 2008 Sami-Odi Hoffmann Dallwitz MCMXII Syrah would fit the bill. Personally I think the Little Wines may be a better bet. Not as great, but if the multi vintage solera system ever takes off then these will be considered legends as well.

Very soft styled wines
I cant see them building structure & complexity over 20 years
Does a great wine need to be able to improve with age?
I would have thought so.

michel wrote:

mychurch wrote:Sami-Odi, or someone similar, may well end up in the Legend Category. Old vines, small production, high quality, great packaging. Something like the 2008 Sami-Odi Hoffmann Dallwitz MCMXII Syrah would fit the bill. Personally I think the Little Wines may be a better bet. Not as great, but if the multi vintage solera system ever takes off then these will be considered legends as well.

Very soft styled wines
I cant see them building structure & complexity over 20 years
Does a great wine need to be able to improve with age?
I would have thought so.

Think I'm with Michel on this one. I love Fraser McKinley''s wines, have seen him in the Barossa and have his wines in the cellar, but to me I don't think they are going to be great wines in 20-30 yrs, well not legendary anyway.

DJ1980 wrote:From the wines I have tried and think are pretty special...

2014 Tyrrells 4 Acres... Best young wine I think I have ever had.
2014 Mount Pleasant 19xx Vines wines... These are phenomenal.
2004 Penfolds Block 42 and Bin 60a... Massive futures
2012 Cullen Vanya Cabernet

What this bloke said.

Gary

What's your opinion of the 2007 versions of the Tyrrells Private Bins, the 7 Acre, Old Patch, Vat 9 etc.

How do these stack up?

.

They are very similar in quality.

Gary W wrote:They are very similar in quality.

Excellent to hear, as I have some bottles of each of them, but none of the 2014's, unfortunately.

Thx Gary

.

mjs wrote:

michel wrote:

mychurch wrote:Sami-Odi, or someone similar, may well end up in the Legend Category. Old vines, small production, high quality, great packaging. Something like the 2008 Sami-Odi Hoffmann Dallwitz MCMXII Syrah would fit the bill. Personally I think the Little Wines may be a better bet. Not as great, but if the multi vintage solera system ever takes off then these will be considered legends as well.

Very soft styled wines
I cant see them building structure & complexity over 20 years
Does a great wine need to be able to improve with age?
I would have thought so.

Think I'm with Michel on this one. I love Fraser McKinley''s wines, have seen him in the Barossa and have his wines in the cellar, but to me I don't think they are going to be great wines in 20-30 yrs, well not legendary anyway.

I do think that soft style wines can age, but the point was more that wines that are to become legend, may not actually be considered that great when they first appear. I think there are actually 2 types of Legendary wine

- the great wines like 01 d´Yquem, that are legends since the minute they appeared due to their inherent quality. In that vain I suppose the ´10 Grange is a good contender.

- the wines that become legendary as first movers. They are not as interesting for us wine buffs, but there fame lives on...Obvious examples of this type would be 1973 Chateau Montellena Chardonnay (Judgement of Paris) and 2001 Yellow Tail. Suppose at one point 1955 Grange would have been in this category.

Personally, I find this 2nd category much more interesting than the first.

mychurch wrote:

mjs wrote:

michel wrote:Very soft styled wines
I cant see them building structure & complexity over 20 years
Does a great wine need to be able to improve with age?
I would have thought so.

Think I'm with Michel on this one. I love Fraser McKinley''s wines, have seen him in the Barossa and have his wines in the cellar, but to me I don't think they are going to be great wines in 20-30 yrs, well not legendary anyway.

I do think that soft style wines can age, but the point was more that wines that are to become legend, may not actually be considered that great when they first appear. I think there are actually 2 types of Legendary wine

- the great wines like 01 d´Yquem, that are legends since the minute they appeared due to their inherent quality. In that vain I suppose the ´10 Grange is a good contender.

- the wines that become legendary as first movers. They are not as interesting for us wine buffs, but there fame lives on...Obvious examples of this type would be 1973 Chateau Montellena Chardonnay (Judgement of Paris) and 2001 Yellow Tail. Suppose at one point 1955 Grange would have been in this category.

Personally, I find this 2nd category much more interesting than the first.

I much prefer your second category but am not enamoured with your examples ..,,

tarija wrote:We've all heard about some of the legendary Australian wines of the 20th century:
- Wynns Michael 1955
- Lindemans Bin 3110 1965
- Peppermint Patties
- O'Shea's wines
- Grange 1971
- John Riddoch 1982
- Graveyard 1986

A lot more of course.

What are the Australian wines of the last 16 years that will reach legendary status similar to the wines above?

Tyrrell's 4 Acres 2014 seems to be a candidate, judging from recent pro reviews.

At first it seemed a little early to make some predictions, until I realised we are already a sixth of the way in!

In the spirit of the legendary wines mentioned, when looking for potential equals to be fought and savoured over in future I would predict the following so far:


Safe bets...

2002 Leo Buring DWF18 Watervale Riesling - a classic from undeniably the best Clare Riesling vintage this century (and for that matter, probably ever), this shone at a recent horizontal tasting. Both 2002 Grossets are also certainties to be future legends, while the Jim Barry Florita and Petaluma Hanlin Hill are also in the ballpark.

2005 Penfolds Cellar Reserve Gewurztraminer - a freak of a wine, after giving my last bottle away (to a good cause) I wish I could find another

2002 Henschke Mount Edelstone Shiraz - 2004, 2005 & 2010 could be in contention here too, but at the moment I favour the International award winner.

2004 Penfolds St Henri Shiraz - I will call it now, it's better than 2012, and a lot better than the (overhyped) 2010.

2004 Penfolds Bin 707 Cabernet Sauvignon

Penfolds Magill Estate Shiraz 2010, 2012 - the last two iconic vintages before the vines were rejuvinated.

Penfolds Grange 2004, 2008, 2010 (The 2012 Grange is even more overhyped than the 2010 St Henri)

2010 Penfolds Bin 169 Coonawarra Cabernet - I agree with Malcolm, this is a (relatively for Penfolds) underrated classic in the making. 2008 is bloody good too.

Although I have not tried them, most likely the 2004 Penfolds Bin 60A & Block 42 given the vintage and the resources that went into them.


Some bolder calls, and some real long shots...

2002 Kalleske Greenock Shiraz - a cult wine in its youth, this was the vintage that really smashed down doors here and in the USA for Troy & Tony. I feel quietly confident about this one, especially while Kalleske continue their upward trajectory.

2004 Majella Cabernet Sauvignon - I could easily pick 2005, 2010 & 2012 too. Criminally underrated, will the price ever really reflect just how bloody superb these wines are?

2007 Howard Park Abercrombie - speaking of criminally underrated, this wine should really get a lot more kudos. 2005 is also outstanding.

2012 Wynns Coonawarra Estate Child's Vineyard Cabernet - something about this one of all their recent releases just seems special, call it a hunch but I reckon it has real potential.

Saltrams Winemaker's Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon 2002, 2004, 2012 - another underrated gem, although being released sporadically probably hurts its profile.

2002 De Bortoli Noble One - a possibilty here for all the wrong reasons, (to date) the last really classic vintage of Noble One before the wheels fell off. The wines are now being made cloyingly sweet, and you can see the colour changing in the bottles of later vintages much, much earlier indicating advanced development. This used to be Australia's pinacle botrytis wine, sadly not since the 2002 vintage...

2004 Bremerton Old Adam Shiraz - remember when this made such a splash when Halliday gave it an insane rating? Will it be just as highly regarded in 20-50 years time? Maybe not, but it's still probably worth mentioning...

2003 Yering Station Reserve Shiraz Viognier - yep you read right, all the things I would usually hate, SV blend, 15% alc, yet this won something like 16 show trophies and has the distinction of being the only one of these evil blends that I really rate. It was still going strong a few years ago - in 20 or so years time when everyone forgets the stigma associated with the words shiraz and viogner being used together, could it be recognised as a classic? That said, a Clonakilla will very likely be considered the accepted benchmark, especially while it occupies an upper ledge on the Langtons classification table.

Ian. South Australia 20 Rest of Australia 3? With lots of qualifications for 2 of those 3? Mostly shiraz (or cabernet)?

Personally, I could happily go the rest of my life without another Barossa shiraz.....

Hmmm
Seriously it will be a cabernet freak wine or a riesling acid driven wine
Screwcap
Undrinkable now
But in 20 years it will be schtonkingly brilliant

The cabernet will have red print or colour on the label & the riesling will have green

The cabernet will be from Margaret River & the riesling will be from South Australia or Great Southern WA....

swirler wrote:Personally, I could happily go the rest of my life without another Barossa shiraz.....

In my mind I wear that T-shirt
Cote Rotie I love
Borossa kills me

swirler wrote:Ian. South Australia 20 Rest of Australia 3? With lots of qualifications for 2 of those 3? Mostly shiraz (or cabernet)?

Personally, I could happily go the rest of my life without another Barossa shiraz.....

Primarily I wanted to make picks that I am very familiar with, which at least explains some of the SA bias (and if anything it's more Cabernet and Coonawarra there too, not Barossa Shiraz). Ultimately I thought that was what the spirit of the thread was about, people to speak up about wines they have tried which they personally think will be superstars in 20 plus years, the next 1963 Peppermint Pattie, 1955 Wynn's Michael, 1982 John Riddoch...

When I was replying I was tempted to add the following wines, but then thought others would have more input and maybe better ideas:

I thought about a Semillon, and really wanted something Hunter, although for some reason I have fallen out of love with the varietal lately - I still get the structure side of it, but it just doesn't really excite me right now. Looking over my past notes, probably the most distinctive was the 2010 Tyrrell's Johnno's Block, although after just trying it the once in it's youth I'm not sure if I should be the one to say it will be a future legend. Tyrrell's Vat 1 traditionally has been the standard, but between dodgy corks and being closed up tighter than a frog's asshole under screwcap I find it's bloody hard to pick one. I think I'll leave it to someone else... as for Hunter reds, I think I will also leave that to someone who is able to try across a broad spectrum, year in and year out.

Likewise with other regions, I thought about bringing up Yarra Yering #1, Mount Mary Quintets and Moss Wood Cabernet (in all cases to me the 2004 & 2005 vintages stood out), but then likewise thought it may be better for others to make that prediction.

Chardonnay... it's a varietal that we traditionally do so well across the board, but is there one in particular I would pick out? I thought about LEAS but remember too many disappointments with a few years on the clock. I have never been really wowed by Gioconda. Definitely not Eileen Hardy. After a slapstick beginning in the nineties Yattarna has made huge strides under Oliver Crawford and then Kym Schroeter, so much so that I think the 2012 is my benchmark to be compared to - but will it ever be considered a future legend?

tarija wrote:We've all heard about some of the legendary Australian wines of the 20th century:
- Wynns Michael 1955
- Lindemans Bin 3110 1965
- Peppermint Patties
- O'Shea's wines
- Grange 1971
- John Riddoch 1982
- Graveyard 1986

A lot more of course.

What are the Australian wines of the last 16 years that will reach legendary status similar to the wines above?

Tyrrell's 4 Acres 2014 seems to be a candidate, judging from recent pro reviews.

Hate to be a killjoy, but I highly doubt the majority of wines posted in this topic will reach the lofty heights of the wines that Tarija listed. I think we might be a tad too optimistic with some recent releases (though there's no doubt most of these wines are very good). Reading through his list, these are the best of the best.... wines that are indeed 'legends'.

Ian, I'll let you off

Mike, why, when there are so many more good wines than ever, can't some of them compete with the greats of a 30+ year period. Doesn't make sense to me. I think you're being rather pessimistic!

Mike Hawkins wrote:

tarija wrote:We've all heard about some of the legendary Australian wines of the 20th century:
- Wynns Michael 1955
- Lindemans Bin 3110 1965
- Peppermint Patties
- O'Shea's wines
- Grange 1971
- John Riddoch 1982
- Graveyard 1986

A lot more of course.

What are the Australian wines of the last 16 years that will reach legendary status similar to the wines above?

Tyrrell's 4 Acres 2014 seems to be a candidate, judging from recent pro reviews.

Hate to be a killjoy, but I highly doubt the majority of wines posted in this topic will reach the lofty heights of the wines that Tarija listed. I think we might be a tad too optimistic with some recent releases (though there's no doubt most of these wines are very good). Reading through his list, these are the best of the best.... wines that are indeed 'legends'.

These are all wines which have aged well, with good structure to see them through the following decades.

I certainly think that some of the wines posted above will be candidates for the same, in particular the 04 Penfolds Block 42 and Bin 60A, and the '10 Bin 169. Don't really have a view on '10 or '12 Grange (or St Henri). There are lots of other good quality wines , not stellar perhaps but time will tell. Yarra Yering #1 perhaps, Moss Wood cabernet, some Mt Mary perhaps. Will 2013 Michael make it, certainly promising, but it has a long long way to go.

Yeah and I've had plenty of lovely wines at 30+ yrs that were extremely modest / cheap / drink within 2 years - type wines and they've been brilliant. So not just the obvious candidates like Block 42, 4 Acres 14 and Thompson Family 10/12. I suppose picking what ones is difficult without having tasted those legends in their youth (as I said on page one), but it's safe bet there will be plenty of stupendous wines from this current era raved about in the next.... I hope to be sharing some with some Auswiners!

TiggerK wrote:Yeah and I've had plenty of lovely wines at 30+ yrs that were extremely modest / cheap / drink within 2 years - type wines and they've been brilliant. So not just the obvious candidates like Block 42, 4 Acres 14 and Thompson Family 10/12. I suppose picking what ones is difficult without having tasted those legends in their youth (as I said on page one), but it's safe bet there will be plenty of stupendous wines from this current era raved about in the next.... I hope to be sharing some with some Auswiners!

TiggerK, don't disagree with any of that

swirler wrote:Mike, why, when there are so many more good wines than ever, can't some of them compete with the greats of a 30+ year period. Doesn't make sense to me. I think you're being rather pessimistic!

The absolute best can compete.. but that's my point... the absolute best. If you reread all the posts, there's plenty of wines listed that wouldn't even be top 10 for their vintage, let alone top 10 for a generation or more. These aren't legends, just very good wines.

mjs wrote:

Mike Hawkins wrote:

tarija wrote:We've all heard about some of the legendary Australian wines of the 20th century:
- Wynns Michael 1955
- Lindemans Bin 3110 1965
- Peppermint Patties
- O'Shea's wines
- Grange 1971
- John Riddoch 1982
- Graveyard 1986

A lot more of course.

What are the Australian wines of the last 16 years that will reach legendary status similar to the wines above?

Tyrrell's 4 Acres 2014 seems to be a candidate, judging from recent pro reviews.

Hate to be a killjoy, but I highly doubt the majority of wines posted in this topic will reach the lofty heights of the wines that Tarija listed. I think we might be a tad too optimistic with some recent releases (though there's no doubt most of these wines are very good). Reading through his list, these are the best of the best.... wines that are indeed 'legends'.

These are all wines which have aged well, with good structure to see them through the following decades.

I certainly think that some of the wines posted above will be candidates for the same, in particular the 04 Penfolds Block 42 and Bin 60A, and the '10 Bin 169. Don't really have a view on '10 or '12 Grange (or St Henri). There are lots of other good quality wines , not stellar perhaps but time will tell. Yarra Yering #1 perhaps, Moss Wood cabernet, some Mt Mary perhaps. Will 2013 Michael make it, certainly promising, but it has a long long way to go.

I agree on the two 04 Special Bins, but am not as enamoured with the 169. I can see why some rate the 2010 St Henri and Grange so highly (I think the latter is superior), but as you say, time will tell.

2010 Armagh.
2008/2010 Florita
2002/2004 Benbournie
2009 Pennies reserve bin a
50yr old rare tawny

I would guess the best one or two Hunter shiraz in 2014 will end up as legends. Have not come across anything else from this century that I have thought to be completely mind-blowing.
We all have our opinions, but i would be surprised if any SA shiraz from this century is destined for legendary status. Some amazing wines, such as 2010 HoG, but nothing strikes me as a future legend. It is my opinion that Grange is no longer the wine it once was. Many reasons for that, but it's just the way things are. But it's label and Pennies marketing will keep it in demand for at least the next 50 years.

John Riddoch '10 is the most impressive 21C Aussie wine I've drunk. It's among a handful of great young wines that I've tried.
Still on the look out for a reasonably priced St. Henri '10. It seems I'm too late, though.

wheel wrote:2010 Armagh.
2008/2010 Florita
2002/2004 Benbournie
2009 Pennies reserve bin a
50yr old rare tawny

I see the 2012 cab benbournie is the current release
never heard of it
can you describe the wine style ?