The Auswine Forum

Poor Gamay...it will always play second fiddle to Pinot..While I really enjoy it, buying it is more of a quality/price thing rather than just a pure what would I buy with unlimited funds..

Polymer wrote:Poor Gamay...it will always play second fiddle to Pinot..While I really enjoy it, buying it is more of a quality/price thing rather than just a pure what would I buy with unlimited funds..

I'll admit, the only reason I put it up there was because I thought you might have voted for it.

Michael McNally wrote:

rooman wrote:I tend to also agree with Chris. I've watched numerous collectors go hard stocking up on Shiraz, especially big SA names, only to completely ditch the stuff as their palate develops. Sadly most Shiraz doesn't take on the same degree of complexity over the years that Cab Sav and Pinot acquires. Naturally there are exceptions but these tend to be cooler climate Shiraz.

Hi Rooman

I have heard this "as your palate develops" you move away from Shiraz statement a number of times (so not having a go at you at all rooman, really). Are we seriously trying to say that if someone's taste preference is different to another's or stays the same while another's changes that the one is 'developing' while the other isn't? Sounds like my preference is better than your preference to me.

In a subjective game like preference for a particular style of wine the idea of development doesn't really fit for me in terms of wine blends. The ability to appreciate different aspects of wine might develop. Change of preference, certainly. Or perhaps the idea of development being inherently good is the problem? Or maybe I have drunk too much of this Grenache dominant blend........

Grenache + dominant blends was the easy choice for me. Choosing between Shiraz and Cabernet more difficult and went for Shiraz mainly for its versatility. Cabernet/Shiraz or Shiraz/Cabernet would be my hands down winner if it were listed!

Cheers

Michael

My comment was really only intended as an observation of various people I have known who have actively collect wine and put together large cellars over the past 30 odd years. Over that time I have seen numerous friends of mine who started out with large shiraz collections slowly change the whole profile of their cellar as they seek greater complexity in the wines they drink rather than concentrate on just one style, being upfront robust fruit driven wines.

My observation was however just that, an observation, it was not intended as some form of slur directed at people who like and drink big Barossa shirazs. Personally I try and collect a wide range of wines because I get easily bored with just one style. However if Grenache rocks your boat then keep buying it. I have some tucked away, together with Cab Sav and pinots and sangioveses and nebbiolo and things made from grapes who's names I can't pronounce.

Mark

Hacker wrote:Btw I have a sweet tooth so Barossa Shiraz will always have a special place in my heart, together with some riper Pinot styles. Vive la difference!

No doubting it is a great style of wine but I'm happy keeping it as 1-2 bottles a month.

catchnrelease wrote:

Polymer wrote:Poor Gamay...it will always play second fiddle to Pinot..While I really enjoy it, buying it is more of a quality/price thing rather than just a pure what would I buy with unlimited funds..

I'll admit, the only reason I put it up there was because I thought you might have voted for it.

I love Gamay, but the question is do I love it more than Pinot?

conformistpete wrote: I love Gamay, but the question is do I love it more than Pinot?

Another question is do you cellar your Gamay for the requisite ten years so that it starts to resemble Pinot. I know this to be true for good Beaujolais.

As for the discussion about "palate development" it doesn't matter if you're an Australian starting out on Shiraz or an American on California Cabernets, drinking only one type of wine is dull and boring. The term "palate development" refers to growing to appreciate the extensive range of varietals and terroirs around the world. So if you like big Aussie Barossan Shiraz then good for you, go ahead, continue drinking it, it's okay, but don't pretend it's equivalent to being knowledgeable about the world of wine, as there is so much more out there.

Many start their wine journey with preferences but almost always they develop an appreciation for different wines they discover along their vinous journey, hence the term "palate development".

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Another question is do you cellar your Gamay for the requisite ten years so that it starts to resemble Pinot. I know this to be true for good Beaujolais.

Either way it is a good drink..but the main attraction to Beaujolais is the value...getting top end Cru Beaujolais for a lot less than comparable Pinot Noir...still getting that very similar fix but for less money...

Polymer wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Another question is do you cellar your Gamay for the requisite ten years so that it starts to resemble Pinot. I know this to be true for good Beaujolais.

Either way it is a good drink..but the main attraction to Beaujolais is the value...getting top end Cru Beaujolais for a lot less than comparable Pinot Noir...still getting that very similar fix but for less money...

Top notch Gamay have price tags of < $100/bottle, which is just the price of Premier Cru Pinot. So Beaujolais definitely worth a punt.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

conformistpete wrote: I love Gamay, but the question is do I love it more than Pinot?

Another question is do you cellar your Gamay for the requisite ten years so that it starts to resemble Pinot. I know this to be true for good Beaujolais.
Mahmoud.

I have had 10+ year old Beaujolais. Not convinced it turns into Pinot. Delicious though!

It does become very Pinot like IMO...enough to fool many people in blind tastings anyways...

For me, Beaujolais is there to give me that same fix I get from Pinot..but at a much better price point. You're buying the top end of Beaujolais for less than an ordinary village level Pinot...You're getting the best winemakers in that region with quality fruit to match...

I agree with Polymer and Mahmoud re aged Beaujolais - though it does help if the Beaujolais has been made with quality fruit (Cru) and in a style closer to how Pinot's typically made. Jadot's Chateau de Jacques wines are probably the best example: they're made without carbonic maceration, aged in oak, etc. I've served the aged Moulin-à-Vent to Burgophiles who've been convinced they're drinking red Burgundy - but it does need the age.

This thread drift kind of illustrates a point about top favourite styles/varieties: it can depend very much on the regions available and one's budget. If I had unlimited funds, Burgundian Pinot Noir would easily be number one red for me; but if you re-phrased the question so that, for example, I had limited funds and/or access to only Australian wines, I'd be questioning if Pinot Noir would even be in my top two.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:it doesn't matter if you're an Australian starting out on Shiraz or an American on California Cabernets, drinking only one type of wine is dull and boring.... Many start their wine journey with preferences but almost always they develop an appreciation for different wines they discover along their vinous journey, hence the term "palate development".

Well stated.

dingozegan wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:it doesn't matter if you're an Australian starting out on Shiraz or an American on California Cabernets, drinking only one type of wine is dull and boring.... Many start their wine journey with preferences but almost always they develop an appreciation for different wines they discover along their vinous journey, hence the term "palate development".

Well stated.

I'm a bit of an ol' bugger now. Started wine journey in Adelaide in the early/mid 70's with Coonawarra and McLaren Vale, Barossa once in '74, went to Melbourne in '79 and included Hunter. Cellar started. Then London in '81 where it was all things European with a bit of Californian thrown in for good measure. Cork 'n' Bottle wine bar in Leicester Sq. Lots of Bordeaux, visits there, bit of Sauternes, a little Burgundy, some Rioja and plenty of cheap Italian. Back to Melbourne in '84, exploring early Bendigo and Pyrenees stuff and Rutherglen, Coonawarra and Bordeaux still ticking over. Bugger all Barossa and Clare to speak of. Outrageous byo dinners at Fleurie. Thailand in the early 90's, so it was all imported, we took dozens with us!! Back to Oz in '93 in the post 1990 boom (wines and prices!). Plenty of Coonawarra. Australian wines from '90, '91, '96, '98. The brother growing and making stuff in the Adelaide Hills starting in the early 00's. Shiraz, pinot, chardonnay, Halliday becomes influential, starts goes berserk with scores. Off-lines via other forum sites. Now super wines from early '90s. Catch up with old Adelaide mates in '09 and Maralinga Wine Society created and goes on tour (someone couldn't pronounce Marananga!), Central Otago, Barossa, Clare, Coonawarra, Hunter, McLaren Vale, Langhorne Ck, Tasmania and ... Mount Macedon (this weekend). Barossa! Where were you all those years ago?! And bush vine Grenache!!! Where were you?!?! Lots of '10 and '12 put away in the cellar. Coonawarra still a theme and a first love, but now getting back into other places. Its all a journey, and a bloody enjoyable one at that, still got much more to go. How could you not love it!!

As for the discussion about "palate development" it doesn't matter if you're an Australian starting out on Shiraz or an American on California Cabernets, drinking only one type of wine is dull and boring. The term "palate development" refers to growing to appreciate the extensive range of varietals and terroirs around the world. So if you like big Aussie Barossan Shiraz then good for you, go ahead, continue drinking it, it's okay, but don't pretend it's equivalent to being knowledgeable about the world of wine, as there is so much more out there.


I see where you're coming from Mahmoud and mostly agree, however, I recall advice in the drawing room at Loosens many years ago where Ernst Loosen said to focus on a wine region and pursue it with a passion.

It's easier for us to drink broadly than most of the board and I think the diversity of this arrangement presents great joy and education. But to truly understand a region I think that Ernst is right. It requires a focus. Barossa shiraz for example, now there's a region I'm a little lost on now and boringly cling to classical expressions.

Other regions are similar if not far more complex and evolving- Piedmont, Bordeaux, Burgundy obviously. I'll use Wachau riesling as an example having an intimate exposure to through connected local friends. It's a dynamic region only the truly dedicated drinkers can keep abreast with whereas you'll see an occasional wine journalist post an elemental and dull piece on the region.

I'd suggest drink as broadly as you can and focus a bit of finance and effort on a region you hold dear.

I think that's good advice. Better to know and appreciate at least something well, rather than a lot of places half heartedly. Doesn't mean you can't dip into a range of areas to give you a broad perspective, just focus on a small number of areas, one or more to fully appreciate them.

sitting in the lounge at HKIA waiting to fly to Geneva, off to ski in Val d'sere, and more importantly, escape the final 10 days of CNY lol.

With my three bros, we have made a conscious decision to try many different varieties at night, and one bro has lugged up Jura, Cahors, Bergerac and many other regions we have long since abandoned. Just for a change, but definitely only temporary!!!!!

Could not agree more with the good old Doc Loosen's advice, for me, the passion is Bordeaux and Burgundy, and if I drink the stuff solely for the next thirty years, I am sure there will still be an abundance of experiences in those regions I will never have.
Sure, my cellar has Aussie stuff, but it has been a decade since I purchased more than a couple of cases a year of the stuff, and now it is pretty much exclusively confined to Hunter shiraz and Margaret River chardonnay.
After twenty years of diversity, and I really do mean HUGE diversity, I settled on the regions most appealing to me, and I know wine-lovers my age have done pretty much exactly the same thing.(not necessarily Bordeaux/Burgundy) I therefore assume this is a natural progression