Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:06 am
It was mainly Aussie, Bordeaux and Champagne.
I'm kinda kicking myself for not downloading the pdf of that auction now
anyone a little more on the ball than moi?
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Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
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Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:31 am
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:46 am
Not PDF'd but you should be able to grab the entire list from the auction results page.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:47 am
I have it in PDF if anyone needs it...
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:16 pm
I was approached late last year to provide detailed feedback on the Langtons website issues by the buying manager, Caton Hicks who was documenting issues for the company. Might be a good direct contact if anyone wants to bypass the online feedback form? Hope it's ok to post this: 02 8507 2631 / caton.hicks@langtons.com.au (let me know if not, and I'll edit the details out of the post).
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:31 pm
I recall there was a heat damaged auction back in 2010. All of the bottles were stamped - it did not look like a common ink stamp but more permanent with some indentation in the label. Not sure how easy it would be to remove. That was prior to Langtons being acquired, so not sure if the same will occur with bottles in this auction.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:38 pm
Trust me, I am no massive fan of Langton's, but I fail to see where they are at fault with this issue.
It is not their responsibility to ensure there is post-sales honesty, I can't see how that could apply given full disclosure.
If a Porsche 911 Turbo demonstrator was rear-ended, and had a $60,000 repair bill, and was then sold by the dealer for 40% off with full disclosure, would you expect them to stamp on the back "this car had a massive rear-end collision when new" so it is not re-sold dishonestly?
Personally, I think you would have to have rocks in your head to have purchased any of that stuff, you can be 100% certain either the vendor, or insurance company who owns the wine, would have sampled a few, and sold because they were unfit for consumption (otherwise, why sell?). If the wine was perfect, the vendor might not have been able to claim under insurance, and would have kept them anyway. The flood just gives them an excuse to sell rubbish wine to an unwise purchaser under full disclosure. (and, of course, they might not have been covered by insurance, again suggesting the vendor selling has tried the wines and is prepared to accept half or third value because they are faulty.) Again, I am sure the issue here is heat damage as a consequence of the flooding, not the flooding itself.
Incredibly, I saw a bottle of d'Yquem 2001 went for close to $600 after all commissions etc., which may be 40% off in Australia, so someone thinks they got a bargain. Then again, they are more likely to have just paid $600 for something they are going to tip down the sink.
I looked up some stuff overnight, and, as a medico, I would say that the chances of any e-coli infection or the like would be approaching zero, but I am sure the Langton's legal team got them to put that in.
Finally, as for re-selling, that can happen anytime. After all, what is to stop somebody toddling down to Uncle Dan's, buying a genuine bottle of 2001 d'Yquem, carefully removing the capsule and cork, drinking the stuff, re-filling the bottle with 2005 Noble One and re-selling it? Nothing!!! That is why everyone buying super premium wines that are not either ex-chateau or purchased at release is taking a risk!!!
It is not their responsibility to ensure there is post-sales honesty, I can't see how that could apply given full disclosure.
If a Porsche 911 Turbo demonstrator was rear-ended, and had a $60,000 repair bill, and was then sold by the dealer for 40% off with full disclosure, would you expect them to stamp on the back "this car had a massive rear-end collision when new" so it is not re-sold dishonestly?
Personally, I think you would have to have rocks in your head to have purchased any of that stuff, you can be 100% certain either the vendor, or insurance company who owns the wine, would have sampled a few, and sold because they were unfit for consumption (otherwise, why sell?). If the wine was perfect, the vendor might not have been able to claim under insurance, and would have kept them anyway. The flood just gives them an excuse to sell rubbish wine to an unwise purchaser under full disclosure. (and, of course, they might not have been covered by insurance, again suggesting the vendor selling has tried the wines and is prepared to accept half or third value because they are faulty.) Again, I am sure the issue here is heat damage as a consequence of the flooding, not the flooding itself.
Incredibly, I saw a bottle of d'Yquem 2001 went for close to $600 after all commissions etc., which may be 40% off in Australia, so someone thinks they got a bargain. Then again, they are more likely to have just paid $600 for something they are going to tip down the sink.
I looked up some stuff overnight, and, as a medico, I would say that the chances of any e-coli infection or the like would be approaching zero, but I am sure the Langton's legal team got them to put that in.
Finally, as for re-selling, that can happen anytime. After all, what is to stop somebody toddling down to Uncle Dan's, buying a genuine bottle of 2001 d'Yquem, carefully removing the capsule and cork, drinking the stuff, re-filling the bottle with 2005 Noble One and re-selling it? Nothing!!! That is why everyone buying super premium wines that are not either ex-chateau or purchased at release is taking a risk!!!
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:03 pm
Not fussed about the heat damage - taking a risk that your wine is not optimal is one thing, and the secondary market already reflects this risk. Been subject to a few of these myself.
The flood damage on the other hand: unknowingly purchasing wine that poses an immediate health risk is something entirely different. This is why either the wine should be destroyed or the label defaced.
This is why medicinal items usually have tamper-evident seals. If you want to take the medicine despite the fact that it has been tampered with, be my guest, at least you aren't unknowingly or unwillingly doing so.
Yes the defaced label can be tampered with, with much hassle and usually some small amount of evidence, but all it takes is an hour or two of time, a $10 stamp and $5 worth of permanent ink to stop most of the everyday Joe Bloggs' from flicking it back to the market and posing a risk to others.
The flood damage on the other hand: unknowingly purchasing wine that poses an immediate health risk is something entirely different. This is why either the wine should be destroyed or the label defaced.
This is why medicinal items usually have tamper-evident seals. If you want to take the medicine despite the fact that it has been tampered with, be my guest, at least you aren't unknowingly or unwillingly doing so.
Yes the defaced label can be tampered with, with much hassle and usually some small amount of evidence, but all it takes is an hour or two of time, a $10 stamp and $5 worth of permanent ink to stop most of the everyday Joe Bloggs' from flicking it back to the market and posing a risk to others.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:11 pm
odyssey wrote:It was mainly Aussie, Bordeaux and Champagne.
Cheers,
I am a bad navigator of their site.
Sorry for the sidetrack but I did notice Braida's various Barberas going pretty cheap. Very interesting wines that age well. Working my way through a case of the 98 Bricco dell' Uccellone Barbera.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:11 pm
Polymer wrote:I have it in PDF if anyone needs it...
That would be great, thanks Kev!
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:20 pm
Just called them and the lady said, and I quote, "all the wines will be stamped as flood damaged".
I asked if the stamp would be something that was easy to remove or hide, and she assured me it was not.
Not sure if the stamp will mention health hazard though.
I asked if the stamp would be something that was easy to remove or hide, and she assured me it was not.
Not sure if the stamp will mention health hazard though.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:24 pm
TiggerK wrote:Just called them and the lady said, and I quote, "all the wines will be stamped as flood damaged".
But what am I going to do with the virtual pitchfork business I was setting up? Guess I'll have to wait until 2011 Grange is released.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:34 pm
I'm glad they're doing that...that is the only responsible thing to do..and frankly, the best thing for their own business as well...
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:41 pm
odyssey wrote:Not fussed about the heat damage - taking a risk that your wine is not optimal is one thing, and the secondary market already reflects this risk. Been subject to a few of these myself.
The flood damage on the other hand: unknowingly purchasing wine that poses an immediate health risk is something entirely different. This is why either the wine should be destroyed or the label defaced.
On the "immediate health risk". My wine (300-400 bottles) was affected by the flood. Kennards offered for all the wine to be cleaned professionally (well, it was adequate). I must have had 200 bottles of that wine since then and never struck anything crook (95% of the wine was screwcapped). My experience of the wine has been that it is not heat affected. I have taken quite a few bottles to offlines and never had any adverse comments. I marked all my flood affected bottles with a little white sticker in case there was a recurring problem. There hasn't been. I still have 150 bottles from that time - and I hope to drink all of them!
I stress that I only have experience of my (screwcap predominant) collection and I do not suggest the same applies to anyone else's wines.
Cheers
Michael
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:47 pm
TiggerK wrote:Just called them and the lady said, and I quote, "all the wines will be stamped as flood damaged".
I asked if the stamp would be something that was easy to remove or hide, and she assured me it was not.
Not sure if the stamp will mention health hazard though.
Strange that there is no mention of it on the site, I guess it is easier to deal with irate flickers after they get their wines. The flicker can't object to it if they have no other plans for the wine, so it's probably a win for them and paints the buyer in a corner at the same time while getting potentially higher prices at the auction.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:02 pm
Michael McNally wrote:odyssey wrote:Not fussed about the heat damage - taking a risk that your wine is not optimal is one thing, and the secondary market already reflects this risk. Been subject to a few of these myself.
The flood damage on the other hand: unknowingly purchasing wine that poses an immediate health risk is something entirely different. This is why either the wine should be destroyed or the label defaced.
On the "immediate health risk". My wine (300-400 bottles) was affected by the flood. Kennards offered for all the wine to be cleaned professionally (well, it was adequate). I must have had 200 bottles of that wine since then and never struck anything crook (95% of the wine was screwcapped). My experience of the wine has been that it is not heat affected. I have taken quite a few bottles to offlines and never had any adverse comments. I marked all my flood affected bottles with a little white sticker in case there was a recurring problem. There hasn't been. I still have 150 bottles from that time - and I hope to drink all of them!
I stress that I only have experience of my (screwcap predominant) collection and I do not suggest the same applies to anyone else's wines.
Cheers
Thanks Mike, that is really interesting. May I ask, was yours a passive cellar, or if a/c, how long was the electricity out?
As I said before, as far as I can see, the health risk would be extremely small.
Michael
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:03 pm
but, having said that (disguised above!!!) it is hard to understand why someone would take 50% or less value for a wine that is still perfect!!
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:52 pm
My 300 bottles also went in the flood but none went under. I was in the same off site storage as Michael, but chose a locker a bit higher off the ground. The bottles that did go under were under for about4-5 days from memory. By the time people could relocate them it took probably 2 weeks of temps in the mid 30s outside. Probably mid 20's inside.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:26 pm
TiggerK wrote:Just called them and the lady said, and I quote, "all the wines will be stamped as flood damaged".
Good to hear.
Something at least. The written response to my query didn't answer the specifically worded question about being stamped, it just referred to the disclaimer webpage.Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:28 pm
rens wrote:My 300 bottles also went in the flood but none went under. I was in the same off site storage as Michael, but chose a locker a bit higher off the ground. The bottles that did go under were under for about4-5 days from memory. By the time people could relocate them it took probably 2 weeks of temps in the mid 30s outside. Probably mid 20's inside.
Have you noticed any pattern of them being heat-affected Rens?
I reckon they got warm pretty slowly and never really got hot. No statistical evidence for that though.
Felix, the storage was cooled until they switched off the power to the local grid a day or so before it was inundated, but the lockers were inside a cold room inside a building so heat would have gone up pretty slowly prior to inundation. At inundation I guess they temp would have risen to the low 20s (river water temp) and then sat in that for a day or so before the water receded. Then it was another week before people were allowed in to access the wine, but the locker inside an insulated cold room inside a building should have kept the temperature steady, though possibly slightly higher. Mid to high 20s? Who knows (probably Kennards). I never heard of anyone who had onsite measuring that continued through the whole debacle.
Cheers
Michael
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:41 pm
Michael McNally wrote:rens wrote:My 300 bottles also went in the flood but none went under. I was in the same off site storage as Michael, but chose a locker a bit higher off the ground. The bottles that did go under were under for about4-5 days from memory. By the time people could relocate them it took probably 2 weeks of temps in the mid 30s outside. Probably mid 20's inside.
Have you noticed any pattern of them being heat-affected Rens?
I reckon they got warm pretty slowly and never really got hot. No statistical evidence for that though.
Felix, the storage was cooled until they switched off the power to the local grid a day or so before it was inundated, but the lockers were inside a cold room inside a building so heat would have gone up pretty slowly prior to inundation. At inundation I guess they temp would have risen to the low 20s (river water temp) and then sat in that for a day or so before the water receded. Then it was another week before people were allowed in to access the wine, but the locker inside an insulated cold room inside a building should have kept the temperature steady, though possibly slightly higher. Mid to high 20s? Who knows (probably Kennards). I never heard of anyone who had onsite measuring that continued through the whole debacle.
Cheers
Michael
I never noticed any difference/signs of being heat effected.
I think wines have a tougher journey in the back of some of the courier vans here in Brisbane.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:33 pm
that is good to hear for you guys, although my understanding is the auctioned wines came from a private cellar.
Not sure about remaining at river temperature inside, generally, over the period of 2-3 days, trapped water should end up close to air temperature, in high humidity conditions. (need to go back and check my physics books).
I do know of one guy, a medico, whose wines were flooded and completely stuffed from the heat/floods, but they were not insured, so he progressively drank them over two years, tells me all 120 were terrible lol. They were in a wine fridge in his auntie's basement!!!!!!!
Not sure about remaining at river temperature inside, generally, over the period of 2-3 days, trapped water should end up close to air temperature, in high humidity conditions. (need to go back and check my physics books).
I do know of one guy, a medico, whose wines were flooded and completely stuffed from the heat/floods, but they were not insured, so he progressively drank them over two years, tells me all 120 were terrible lol. They were in a wine fridge in his auntie's basement!!!!!!!
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:14 pm
TiggerK wrote:Just called them and the lady said, and I quote, "all the wines will be stamped as flood damaged".
I asked if the stamp would be something that was easy to remove or hide, and she assured me it was not.
Glad I don't need to eat my hat
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:05 pm
swirler wrote:Chuck wrote:I guess that's Adelaide for you.
Carl
Having lived in Sydney for 30 years we moved to Adelaide in 1990 to bring up a family in a family friendly low smog environment. Bonus was an underground cellar in a 100 year old house 6 minutes from the city centre. Worked 5 minutes from home since then before retiring a month ago at 58. Best life choice ever. Listening to the morning traffic reports confirmed this regularly. Regularly the comment on Sydney was "Just don't get out of bed". Don't get me wrong Sydney is a great place to visit..... 20% of OZ population live there. Used to visit there on business and the traffic was just a shitfight.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:24 am
haha, you got to be kidding me!!
I live in the world's 5th most crowded city, and the 6th richest GDP/capita (i.e. everyone has a car). 15.6 million official, 7.9 million estimated non-Hukou residents, so more than the population of Australia living in a city less than the size of Sydney
Traffic in Sydney is like driving thru Coonawarra compared to here, I crave for traffic as light as Sydney!!!! 
Smog in Sydney?? are you serious?? go to Beijing, some days you can't see your toes there!!!!
People in Aus never realise how perfect they have it until they live somewhere else in Asia
I live in the world's 5th most crowded city, and the 6th richest GDP/capita (i.e. everyone has a car). 15.6 million official, 7.9 million estimated non-Hukou residents, so more than the population of Australia living in a city less than the size of Sydney
Traffic in Sydney is like driving thru Coonawarra compared to here, I crave for traffic as light as Sydney!!!! Smog in Sydney?? are you serious?? go to Beijing, some days you can't see your toes there!!!!
People in Aus never realise how perfect they have it until they live somewhere else in Asia
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:37 pm
felixp wrote:haha, you got to be kidding me!!
I live in the world's 5th most crowded city, and the 6th richest GDP/capita (i.e. everyone has a car). 15.6 million official, 7.9 million estimated non-Hukou residents, so more than the population of Australia living in a city less than the size of Sydney
Smog in Sydney?? are you serious?? go to Beijing, some days you can't see your toes there!!!!
People in Aus never realise how perfect they have it until they live somewhere else in Asia
I'm driving up to the Clare valley for the day on Saturday. Visiting Grosset & Mt Horrocks than wherever the rd takes me.
Well Im not driving technically, someone else is. So bring on the tastings.
I'll be thinking of you Felix.
My boss regularly visits HK and Shenzhen. Describes the same type of aforementioned chaos.
But I'll be visiting soon. Prob next year. 'Til then I'll deal with this crazy gridlock here in Adelaide.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:19 pm
Dodgy auctions > Adelaide > Sydney > Shenzhen > Clare
Now that's what I call thread drift
Now that's what I call thread drift
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:57 pm
swirler wrote:Dodgy auctions > Adelaide > Sydney > Shenzhen > Clare
Now that's what I call thread drift
lets keep it going. I reckon it can go full circle.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:34 pm
Actually, I once knew a girl called Clare who was a bit dodgy.
Re: Flood/Heat Damaged Auctions
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:49 pm
TiggerK wrote:Actually, I once knew a girl called Clare who was a bit dodgy.
But did you ever meet Margaret......?
