The Auswine Forum

phillisc wrote:So Cam, you give your money to an auction house in procuring wines from wineries that have treated you poorly and I in the same instance buy them from a retailer...what's the difference?
Particularly if said eastern seaboard auction house and retailer are owned by the same company.

Craig, double check my comment, I did say that I "simply don't buy their wines any more via any method" (that includes auctions). I can't think of any instance where I have purchased a wine at auction from a winery that I was otherwise not buying from - but it's not impossible that I might do so if I felt like it, especially as there are different levels of being "treated poorly". However, if I did buy something via auction then no money goes to the winery and they would receive no direct benefit from my purchase, unlike a purchase from a retailer (even if the retailer and auction house is owned by the same company).

felixp wrote:
I live in Asia (China to be exact)
trust me, no-one in asia is interested in GC wines. If you have heard otherwise, that is total BS. I have seen it occasionally in the western supermarket in Shenzhen (Ole in OTC) but it does not seem move at all.
the wines are just too big for asian food, they need a big hunk of dead cow seared on the BBQ, not delicate pork and fish dishes.
and you are correct, they simply do not improve with age, but if you like the style, they taste great young!!!!

I dont think wines like GC are primarily sold into Asia via supermarkets... I suspect they are sold by dedicated wine merchants to the select and (relative to local income standards) disproportionately wealthy customers who could afford them.

And in my experience "big" red wines are still popular in Asia notwithstanding the fact it does not match the cuisine or often the climate...

felixp wrote:I still got about 8 bottles each of the 1996 Creek block and 1996 Seven Acres shiraz…. they have been perfectly cellared since release at 13C, professional storage area, and both are crap, each at least five years past it.
GC drinks well young, the Apricot block is excellent if you like that style, but do not bother cellaring them. FWIW, IMO the only GC wine that actually improves with cellaring is the Cornerstone grenache!!!

I had a 92 GC Cab Sav a year back at a group tasting and it was aging superbly. Notes are on here somewhere.

dave vino wrote:

felixp wrote:I still got about 8 bottles each of the 1996 Creek block and 1996 Seven Acres shiraz…. they have been perfectly cellared since release at 13C, professional storage area, and both are crap, each at least five years past it.
GC drinks well young, the Apricot block is excellent if you like that style, but do not bother cellaring them. FWIW, IMO the only GC wine that actually improves with cellaring is the Cornerstone grenache!!!

I had a 92 GC Cab Sav a year back at a group tasting and it was aging superbly. Notes are on here somewhere.

Agree, the Cabernet ages superbly. I have back to 2002 in most of the range and apart from the couple of years when the alcohol went a little silly, they all drink very well. Each to their own I suppose.

Cheers
Ian

Interesting. I don't have any from the 90's but I have some 04 seven acre shiraz and it it amazing - one of my fave wines regardless of price point.

sjw_11 wrote:

felixp wrote:
I live in Asia (China to be exact)
trust me, no-one in asia is interested in GC wines. If you have heard otherwise, that is total BS. I have seen it occasionally in the western supermarket in Shenzhen (Ole in OTC) but it does not seem move at all.
the wines are just too big for asian food, they need a big hunk of dead cow seared on the BBQ, not delicate pork and fish dishes.
and you are correct, they simply do not improve with age, but if you like the style, they taste great young!!!!

I dont think wines like GC are primarily sold into Asia via supermarkets... I suspect they are sold by dedicated wine merchants to the select and (relative to local income standards) disproportionately wealthy customers who could afford them.

And in my experience "big" red wines are still popular in Asia notwithstanding the fact it does not match the cuisine or often the climate...

well, I guess you can "suspect" anything you want, but in this case you will be totally wrong. The vast majority of imported wine in China is sold in the supermarkets, although here the idea of a supermarket is quite different to Australia. I guess the closest I can get to in Australia, for those that live in Melbourne, is the Crittendens wine store and supermarket on Malvern Road, although the Safeways concept is pretty close. The very small number of dedicated wine stores in China, a very small number not counting the cheap street shops, universally carry a minuscule Australian range, and most of that is Penfolds etcetc
and in China at least, the big aussie fruit bombs are not popular, the culture has very much a cabernet and pinot leaning. Even in Hong Kong, where there are indeed an incredible number of wonderful wine stores (and 10 times that amount of internet vendors like auswine), it is pretty difficult to find a huge range of shiraz-based wines…. Northern Rhones and CNDP seem very much to be the domaine of the serious expat wine lover rather than your middle-class to well-off Honkie.
now, I know the Chinese wine market extremely well, but I can also say that we take holidays in Philippines, Vietnam and Thailand when wanting a short flight, and there aint too much Aussie stuff there either!!!!!

and I guess your last comment was meant to imply that there are not many rich people in China, and wine is a luxury only a tiny percentage of the population can afford. hmmm, maybe you also believe French wines are so expensive because they get WET tax and the Aussie stuff doesn't?
just for the record, Shenzhen has an official population of 16 million (probably closer to 19). It was the 24th richest city (GDP per capita) in 2012, it is the 7th richest city as of July 1st this year, and it is expected to be the richest city in the world by 2020. I am tipping there are plenty of people here who could afford to drink Greenock Creek if they want to
BTW, Perth is now the only Australian city in the top 20, keeping it's third spot.(easier to do with such a small population) So if you live in Melbourne or Sydney and think you are living the high life, think again. Yep, the wealth here absolutely shocked me too, particularly when you think they are talking of a single city almost the population of Australia!!

felixp wrote:
and I guess your last comment was meant to imply that there are not many rich people in China, and wine is a luxury only a tiny percentage of the population can afford. hmmm, maybe you also believe French wines are so expensive because they get WET tax and the Aussie stuff doesn't?
just for the record, Shenzhen has an official population of 16 million (probably closer to 19). It was the 24th richest city (GDP per capita) in 2012, it is the 7th richest city as of July 1st this year, and it is expected to be the richest city in the world by 2020. I am tipping there are plenty of people here who could afford to drink Greenock Creek if they want to
BTW, Perth is now the only Australian city in the top 20, keeping it's third spot.(easier to do with such a small population) So if you live in Melbourne or Sydney and think you are living the high life, think again. Yep, the wealth here absolutely shocked me too, particularly when you think they are talking of a single city almost the population of Australia!!

They are nowhere near the 24th highest GDP per capita (city) or 7th for that matter... Entire states in the US have a higher GDP per capita than Shenzhen. I think your numbers are flawed..But that said, the average wage has gone up considerably and is a huge growing middle class that are doing quite well. But there is still a HUGE percentage of the population that is basically living in poverty...

You'd know the wine preferences in mainland China better than the people here but each time I was there, the preference has been for big fruit bombs. Granted, these weren't wine geeks...

wow, polymer, you really are quite sad.
so you been to China hey>? let me guess, Beijing??
The figures, by the way, come from Forbes. (US magazine, in case you didn't recognise)

felixp wrote:wow, polymer, you really are quite sad.
so you been to China hey>? let me guess, Beijing??
The figures, by the way, come from Forbes. (US magazine, in case you didn't recognise)

I'm sad because what? Those are facts. So what is the per Capita GDP in Shenzhen? The numbers I see are in the 20,000s. Even double that? Makes the GDP per capita smaller than a lot of US States...

Triple that? 60000? That is below the entire country of Australia....Which obviously means there are many cities above that...

I'm just pointing out that I think your facts are incorrect...You must've read the article incorrectly.
http://www.chinawhisper.com/top-100-ric ... er-capita/

As far as China and where have I been...Not including HK/Macau which I don't consider part of mainland China.....Shanghai, Beijing, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Dongguan...As I said, you would know the style preferences in your area better than I would or people here would...and I know in HK there is definitely a growing affinity for Burgundy (and Shenzhen no doubt is influenced being right next to the main wine hub in Asiapac) but the time I've spent in China, people preferred big reds...They're not wine geeks but that was definitely their style preference. And again, I'm not counting HK as mainland China...

I feel like opening the biggest fruit bomb I can find and watching this continue to unfold

Felix, mate, I am really not sure I like the tone you decide to bring to a lot of your posts on here...

You are actually telling me in general terms "supermarkets" in China are like boutique wine stores??
I can only assume you mean "westernised" supermarkets in the wealthy neighbourhoods of Shenzhen that you happen to frequent.

Even with much higher wealth than most of China, Shenzhen had 2011 GDP per capita of around US$17K per Wikipedia. I hardly think the average of the 16m people there will be quaffing Greenock Creek... but actually lets consider those GDP per capita numbers a bit further as they are of course skewed by income inequality.
This salary guide suggests in 2012 average wages across public and private corporations in Shenzhen were around RMB4,000 per month. Which is less than $10K aussie per year. http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2012 ... guide.html

I think its also fair to say that living expenses in Shenzhen are also much higher than in Tier 2, 3 or 4 cities, no?
As an example, if one wanted to buy a 90sqm flat there with a 70% LTV and a 20-yr loan with a rate of 5.6% ... that would take 75% of your average income away... (Source: Merrill Lynch).

I am certainly not questioning there is a LOT of wealth (lets not always ask where it came from) in China. There are over 150 billionaires (that we know about) and doubtless many more we dont plus all the lower levels of wealth.

However the average consumption of wine is still low.
Every man and his dog has been trying to flog wine to China on that logic (lots of rich people to buy it)... but you can't exactly pretend it is a traditional local drink.

According to US Trade Data that is admittedly from 2010: South China’s per capita wine consumption (1.3 liters per capita) is significantly above the national average (0.8 liter per capita). It has experienced double digit growth, but is still low in absolute terms.
Interestingly, that study also noted that the most popular wine sold in supermarkets was in the US$6-9/range...

By comparison, in traditional wine drinking markets like France it is 44L/per capita, in Italy over 30, in the UK over 20.
Your average consumer in even South China is purchasing barely a single bottle of wine per annum. In France, it is 59 bottles.

So Felix, I am a bit lost now as to what your point was? Because it seemed to be "China is very wealthy and everyone buys lots and lots of wine at the awesome boutique wine store supermarkets, but doesn't buy Greenock Creek" (actually, you said "no one in Asia...." even!!). But I dont think thats really the case...

Perhaps you really mean, among your network of contacts and the relatively extraordinarily well-off neighbourhoods you frequent that this is the case?

amazing

10.Stockholm
9.Munich
8. Oslo
7. Kuwait City
6. Macau
5. Edinburugh
4. Singapore
3.Perth
2. Dongguan
1.Abu Dhabi

…. there is the list according to Forbes, sourced from IMF. July 13.
since Xi Jin Ping has come to power, the Dongguan tax concessions to uber rich and Taiwanese have been removed (and the 1000's of brothels forcibly shut), and the entire elite population have moved from that sh1thole to adjacent Shenzhen, which is like moving from Redfern to mossman, I am guessing you are Sydneysiders.
you can find a million sources quoting a million cities, but the one quoted here is the one used in International Urban Assessment.

I've never tried a GC wine but now feel compelled to, to find out what the Chinese are either loving or missing out on. So, if you work for their marketing department then Felix, you win

maybs wrote:I've never tried a GC wine but now feel compelled to, to find out what the Chinese are either loving or missing out on. So, if you work for their marketing department then Felix, you win

hahah, very good. Yep, they are great wines to drink young, for me, especially the Apricot block and even Alice's. Used to be great value too!!

too bad the poor scum in Shenzhen earning 10,000 a year cannot afford them!! Still, no-where to keep them stored well in their mud brick houses, well at least until we get electricity, which we hope is by 2020!!! Fancy the stupid Chinese government declaring SHZ ( along with Macau and Hong Kong) as special economic zones and then having the cheek to let all the poor people live there!!!!!!
you know, we finally got our X5 delivered last Thursday, after a six month wait. Silly salesman at the BMW centre in Xiaminghu wouldn't do any deals, simply because of the huge wait list and the fact that they sell 30 X5's A DAY. Was only a three month wait on an X6, but I don't like them.

just got in this morning back to Melbourne, flew down to watch the Hawks smash the AFL disguised as Sydney on Saturday… geez, the weather here is amazing!!! feels like the same temperature as home!!! And the electricity!! wow, I forgot how great it is to have a TV and a fridge!!

yea, you guys are right, everyone in China loves big Aussie shiraz, and no-one drinks wine (except the again silly Chinese government claims China is one of the largest wine producers in the world). If only the 100 or so rich guys in SZ could get their hands on some!!!
you know, we no longer say "ni hao" or "zenmeyang?" as a greeting, we say " ni jintian yi boli bei Greenock Creek Shiraz he le ma?"

sorry about the tone, and really really sorry I do not like Wendouree wines…. promise to go to wine reform school when i come back to Oz, ok?

maybs wrote:I've never tried a GC wine but now feel compelled to, to find out what the Chinese are either loving or missing out on. So, if you work for their marketing department then Felix, you win

Do you reckon it's optimal food pairing is popcorn?

Teisto wrote:

maybs wrote:I've never tried a GC wine but now feel compelled to, to find out what the Chinese are either loving or missing out on. So, if you work for their marketing department then Felix, you win

Do you reckon it's optimal food pairing is popcorn?

I would have thought mixed with coke, drunk whilst draped over your very expensive European marque

Cheers
Craig

Oh by the way a mixed case and a few magnums have just landed.

Cheers
Craig.

felixp wrote:amazing

10.Stockholm
9.Munich
8. Oslo
7. Kuwait City
6. Macau
5. Edinburugh
4. Singapore
3.Perth
2. Dongguan
1.Abu Dhabi

…. there is the list according to Forbes, sourced from IMF. July 13.
since Xi Jin Ping has come to power, the Dongguan tax concessions to uber rich and Taiwanese have been removed (and the 1000's of brothels forcibly shut), and the entire elite population have moved from that sh1thole to adjacent Shenzhen, which is like moving from Redfern to mossman, I am guessing you are Sydneysiders.
you can find a million sources quoting a million cities, but the one quoted here is the one used in International Urban Assessment.

And yet everything I see for Dongguan suggests they got that number wrong and used RMB = USD. (Let's also not confuse that you said Shenzhen which while close, is NOT Dongguan). And lets say this number is right (it doesn't look like it is). Who cares? 16+ or even 20 million of a population of 1.5 billion...what about the rest of the cities across China?

I actually just left Dongguan a few weeks ago....GDP per capita higher than AU? No chance. Either that or because the city is so empty the average GDP is high because of the number of rich people...and the general population is low in comparison..but the average person there doesn't make a lot....The average factory worker there is poor (and there are a lot of factory workers there as it is mostly industrial). The average factory worker in AU is far far far better off..Malls there are empty..almost scary empty....prices for stuff is low, most people on the street are poor...wine? Most people there would struggle to pay 50 dollars for a bottle of wine. That doesn't discount the number of rich people there..but your numbers don't stack up at all.none of your "data" stacks up...

Now, Shenzhen is a huge growing city..a lot of rich people...and a lot of poor people....You might know what the wine preferences are there..I don't really know...I'm stating from my personal experience..including several weeks ago, the people from Dongguan, Shanghai and Beijing that where there(plus the other times I've been there), all liked the bigger reds...Were they wine people? No..not at all. This doesn't take away from the label hunting that happens but don't kid yourself into thinking the preference for those wines are based on taste.
I also visited several wine specialist stores in Dongguan...and a grocery store which didn't have wine (or any decent wine)...but I'll defer to you who lives in the area to know better than I..

felixp wrote:amazing

10.Stockholm
9.Munich
8. Oslo
7. Kuwait City
6. Macau
5. Edinburugh
4. Singapore
3.Perth
2. Dongguan
1.Abu Dhabi

…. there is the list according to Forbes, sourced from IMF. July 13.
since Xi Jin Ping has come to power, the Dongguan tax concessions to uber rich and Taiwanese have been removed (and the 1000's of brothels forcibly shut), and the entire elite population have moved from that sh1thole to adjacent Shenzhen, which is like moving from Redfern to mossman, I am guessing you are Sydneysiders.
you can find a million sources quoting a million cities, but the one quoted here is the one used in International Urban Assessment.

OK then.
Well as long as its used in "International Urban Assessment" it must be right. By the way, what is that? Nothing I have heard of and produces no google results.

In 2011, the GDP per capita for Shenzhen was US$17K and for Dongguan was US$8K
Source: Guangdong Statistical Yearbook 2011 / 2012 (ISBN 978-7-89468-203-1/F.403)

That is before, as I say, we concern ourselves with the two issues in China 1) poor data collection and reporting and 2) any skews in the data from income inequality (which there clearly are).

felixp wrote:

maybs wrote:I've never tried a GC wine but now feel compelled to, to find out what the Chinese are either loving or missing out on. So, if you work for their marketing department then Felix, you win

too bad the poor scum in Shenzhen earning 10,000 a year cannot afford them!! Still, no-where to keep them stored well in their mud brick houses, well at least until we get electricity, which we hope is by 2020!!!

you know, we finally got our X5 delivered last Thursday, after a six month wait. Silly salesman at the BMW centre in Xiaminghu wouldn't do any deals, simply because of the huge wait list and the fact that they sell 30 X5's A DAY. Was only a three month wait on an X6, but I don't like them.

yea, you guys are right, everyone in China loves big Aussie shiraz, and no-one drinks wine (except the again silly Chinese government claims China is one of the largest wine producers in the world). If only the 100 or so rich guys in SZ could get their hands on some!!!

sorry about the tone, and really really sorry I do not like Wendouree wines…. promise to go to wine reform school when i come back to Oz, ok?

Zhen de ma?!?! I give up mate, your on another planet somewhere.

Are you really suggesting there is not a majority of the population in Shenzhen, let alone the rest of China where several hundred million people live below the international poverty line of US$1/per day, who could not afford this stuff? No your right, everyone in China is now more wealthy than anywhere and is drinking US$50/bottles of wine all the time.

My only point was while you claim to be able to talk for "all China" and indeed you said "all Asia" because you happen to live in a city in China, your reported examples are very specific to an extremely small minority of people who are ridiculously well off in comparison to the national average. Out of interest, how much do you earn there compared to the average worker??

from your typing, I can see English is not your native language. Anyway,I give up, as my father always said, never try to argue with an idiot.
you are right,virtually everyone in China is on or below the poverty line, they all dream one day of drinking Greenock Creek, and the statistics I quoted are entirely made up. There, I am sure you feel much better now. It must feel great to be right about everything, even when you are wrong hehehe
Oh, and if you are going to type pinyin, please try to get it right.

oh, and for you Polymer, I own two factories in Dongguan, and am usually there two or three times a week. Yes, you are right, the malls and high-end shops are becoming more and more empty by the day for the reasons I just explained above… the new government power-brokers have changed the local tax laws and a huge chunk of the population have moved out, for the same reasons I did, cause Dongguan is where God would put the tube if he wanted to give the world an enema.
Where have the Chinese and Taiwanese bills moved? …. Shenzhen.
BTW, you want to rent a two or three bedroom apartment centrally in SZ, where over six million of us live, then you will pay between 2 or 3 wan per month (I pay 4 wan for a top place) 3wan is close to $6000 a month, and given that six million of us live centrally, there gotta be a fair chunk of the population that could afford a $50 bottle of wine.

Well didn't this thread turn into a pile of steaming s**t........

I still enjoy Greenock Creek by the way!

Cheers
Ian

felixp wrote:from your typing, I can see English is not your native language. Anyway,I give up, as my father always said, never try to argue with an idiot.

I do love typing carefully considered posts which attempt to remain civil and polite and draw on actual facts and statistics and be met with personal abuse.

I am so glad you joined this forum Felixp ... We had maintained far too much courtesy and civil dialogue for too long, I am sure we will benefit from your coarseness to liven things up.

For me, guess I will simply stay away for a while.

To quote wineforlife in another recent thread, "peace "

We're all here for the enjoyment of wine regardless of what wine we drink or what country we drink it in.

As a constant lurker but infrequent poster I respect, admire and learn from the contributions of all of you out there and thank you for your time and effort...having enjoyed the dialogue and banter that takes place here I'm pretty sure we're all on the same page regardless of personality and how people express themselves.

I've never tried Greenock Creek wines but will look forward to the opportunity when it comes my way on my wine journey, under whichever closure...maybe at an offline with some forumites one day!

Whoa, this is bigger war than me and polymer's alittle word play sometime back. pass on the popcorn.lol

I do think china will be the wealthiest country oneday. But I reckon it will take longtime, but very possible.
The gap between poor and wealthy are ridiculously proportion ed like someone has mentioned above. Not to mention government is evil. They need to sort out government first and become fully democratic. And too many workers get bloody low paid. Not as worse as some other countries but it is like that.

I am enjoying the thread, keep it firing. Maybe your statistics are correct or may be not, I dont know felix. But is certainly questionable. Putting that aside perhaps you could calm down abit. You seem to have my temperament dude haha

Amen tj2!

We are all here to respectfully share our thoughts and experiences, and maybe even learn a thing or two from those with more experience or knowledge than ourselves.

I'm all for a civil discussion between board members which, for a large majority of the time, is insightful and adds meaning to the topic. But when sarcasm and insults start getting thrown about, maybe it's time to take a step back and remember while we are all here.

Felix, I'm not sure what your trying to achieve from your comments, but insulting other board members whilst completely disregarding their arguments definitely won't win you any respect on here! If you consistently don't like what you are hearing and think everyone is wrong, I'm sure there are plenty of other forums you can join via the 10 times the "amount of internet vendors like auswine"

Wine discussion, great. Sharing ideas, great. Polite disagreements, great.

Humour, great, if you can carry it off.

Personal slanging matches, personal insults, not on.

Let's stay on topic, wine. Please take any personal arguments off the forum, not the place, not the time etc.

The thread has been a bit hijacked, so back to Greenock Creek Wines, or polite discussions thereof please.

.

Awesome back to thread->

Greenock Creek Seven Acre Shiraz 2012 - Cracked it open and let it breath for a good couple of hours. Very nice fruity bouqet and again a big wine. I have only had the 2011's before this and found them sometimes a little earthy, or mossy or something. Not here. Big fruit, lots of flavour far more than the average bear (berries, bit of pepper or spice) but still seems to early to be drinking. I think it will develop nicely over time. I have 3 left as well as 3x Apricot Block, 3x Cab Sav and 2 of the Cornorstone Grenache.

Had Alice's block shiraz 2004 not long ago thanks to Polymer.
I thought it was fantastic. Not sure in long term cellaring but they can take some aging. Certainly took decade with ease.
I need to grab some 2012 regardless of the closure.
Price seems to be reasonable too except for the flagships.