The Auswine Forum

sparky wrote:

Scotty vino wrote:can someone please post a picture of a damaged screw cap?

OK, try this for something a bit more obvious..

Wow, never seen anything like that, was it leaking ?

I'll echo Burgster.
Years, and years of screwcaps - never seen a damaged one.
Around 400 in the cellar.
Move along folks, not a lot to see here.

We have had screwcaps as a regular thing since the Richmond Grove 1998s. It has long been my argument if you put them in standard lying down racks you should notice if the seal is problematic. I'll have to quiz my MW mate on whether this is looking like a fix up. The cork industry has been happy to pay the likes of Len Evans to say we need to stick to cork. I've long thought we may as well stick to amphorae and wine skins at that point, Wooden barrels and bottles what a dumb idea.

Hmm, Len Evans passed away some years ago.....................

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:Hmm, Len Evans passed away some years ago.....................

Mahmoud.

Agreed Mahmoud, probably not the greatest call there

However as my Riesling obsession is gradually slowing I am very confident of someone like John Vickery and in the next wave Jeffery Grosset giving stelvins the thumbs up.
Equally, Robert Hill Smith has probably still got some of those '79 Pewsey's tucked away...bet they are sensational.
I have Richmond Groves going back to the early 1990s and think that Stevlins may have started earlier than 98 for the vintage cellars chain.
Reasonably confident that all the 2002/2012 comparative 10/20 year tastings in 2022 will be looking pretty good.

Having said that...I think the glass stopper Henschke bottles are worth investigating as an alternative.

Cheers
Craig.

phillisc wrote:'79 Pewsey's tucked away...bet they are sensational

I had one last year. It was.

Without knowledge of the methodology and statistical testing, it's very hard to comment on the reported findings because of concerns of sampling bias. However, I'd say that isn't it because as an end consumer, shouldn't we be buying only undamaged bottles? I can't see reputable retailers putting damaged stelvins on the shelves. So the figure of ~8% could reflect what bottlers/distributers/retailers report. We can't be dismissive of the reported figures because our shared opinions as consumers is equally subject to sampling bias.

26% damaged and 8% damaged to the point of probably having something wrong with it...

There are two parts to this...what we as consumers see..it doesn't sound right but if you assume we're saved from that exposure..

If wineries are needing to replacing anywhere from 8%-26% of the bottles out there, why would they use screwcap to begin with? Might as well use cork and deal w/ the 5% or so that they end up replacing as bad....Surely it would be far too expensive for them to use screwcap if they're having to replace all of these bottles...and it isn't like they can re-sell the wine again because they'd break the seal and expose it to air....

I'm just thinking we would have heard some wineries quote this exact reason why they're moving back to cork...Doesn't mean what the report says isn't 100% true...Just seems odd that no one would have raised this as an issue if it was indeed as large a % as quoted...

the only real problem I have had is with the cap not being applied properly and the whole sleeve and cap coming off together (these were from around 2000 and a particular winery)...surprisingly the wine was still all ok perhaps a little more developed. I have had some dented caps in the cellar and the wine has been sound. No outright failure of the seal.

BUTI have had at least 10% of cork sealed wine with issues of TCA, premature oxidation and outright cork failure. A further percentage was just not up to the standard probably another 5% or so. The issue was not so clearly defined but there was a fault.

Anacdotal evidence yes, but for me the issue is clear...there is no issue with screw caps

Most retailers I know will never sell bottles with damaged caps, or *any* damage for that matter. Distributors will just improve their handling or storage facilities if they receive excessive complaints about damage. Sometimes I do wonder about hidden agendas behind some of these reports. Granted that screw caps aren't 100% perfect (what is anyway), improvements will continue to be made & innovations in bottle enclosures, coupled with competition between various methods, will only mean better outcomes (notwithstanding occasional experimental hiccups).

http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine ... cap-damage

That's that.

Thanks Panda 9D ... To summarise for those too lazy to read the other article: 1) only Category D faults (the most extreme) generated a technical deterioration in the wine and this was 0.6% of samples not the 8% headline figure and 2) even then the sensory analysis did not identify the wines as flawed.

As they say: Myth Busted.

My personal concern remains... this was a 10-week study. What is the impact of say, category B or C damage, over a period of say 15 years? This damage being of a kind I might accidentally cause to my own bottles in transport or moving around the cellar. (something which always makes me a lot more nervous handling screw caps than corks). Not saying I dont still prefer screw caps but just to explain what it is I worry about.

Research funded by cork producers and corkscrew manufacturers? I haven't had a screw-capped bottle of wine affected by TCA nor any that have been oxidised. There were a very few persons early-on in this argument who reported corked wine sealed under screw-cap that was logically attributed to infection in the winery. Screw-caps are much more robust, resilient, sturdy than the timidity of anyone who may worry about just bumping them against some solid object. FFS, the glass of the bottle would need to break to breach the seal of this now mature technology. Cork producers have themselves to blame for the rise and rise of screw-cap seals after too many decades of fobbing-off substandard product to at least this country's wineries, including premium labels such as Cullen.

[quote="Panda 9D"]http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine-science/more-on-the-mw-dissertation-claims-about-screwcap-damage

That's that.[/quote

Agreed 100 %

sjw_11 wrote:Thanks Panda 9D ... To summarise for those too lazy to read the other article: 1) only Category D faults (the most extreme) generated a technical deterioration in the wine and this was 0.6% of samples not the 8% headline figure and 2) even then the sensory analysis did not identify the wines as flawed.

As they say: Myth Busted.

My personal concern remains... this was a 10-week study. What is the impact of say, category B or C damage, over a period of say 15 years? This damage being of a kind I might accidentally cause to my own bottles in transport or moving around the cellar. (something which always makes me a lot more nervous handling screw caps than corks). Not saying I dont still prefer screw caps but just to explain what it is I worry about.

I don't think you can casuse damage to the point that the screw cap loses seal integrity while moving your bottles around your cellar. If you do, you might wanna have a health check
If it happens during transport, change your courier. But in my experience of receiving screw capped bottles in past 10 years, even the worst courier (AU Post, first hand experience, I ran a post office for 6 years) known to me couldn't damage the screw caps to the point that they lost their integrity.

You would have to be dropping it on its head (so to speak). I have had a damaged screwcap and took a while to open it. The wine was outstanding (I regretted opening it, it was too young). It would have to be severe enough to rip the lining off the bottle.

Sounds like a beat up by a lobby group.

[quote="odyssey"]You would have to be dropping it on its head (so to speak). I have had a damaged screwcap and took a while to open it. The wine was outstanding (I regretted opening it, it was too young). It would have to be severe enough to rip the lining off the bottle.

Sounds like a beat up by a lobby group.[/quote]

Yep, that's exactly what it is.

ufo wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:Thanks Panda 9D ... To summarise for those too lazy to read the other article: 1) only Category D faults (the most extreme) generated a technical deterioration in the wine and this was 0.6% of samples not the 8% headline figure and 2) even then the sensory analysis did not identify the wines as flawed.

As they say: Myth Busted.

My personal concern remains... this was a 10-week study. What is the impact of say, category B or C damage, over a period of say 15 years? This damage being of a kind I might accidentally cause to my own bottles in transport or moving around the cellar. (something which always makes me a lot more nervous handling screw caps than corks). Not saying I dont still prefer screw caps but just to explain what it is I worry about.

I don't think you can casuse damage to the point that the screw cap loses seal integrity while moving your bottles around your cellar. If you do, you might wanna have a health check
If it happens during transport, change your courier. But in my experience of receiving screw capped bottles in past 10 years, even the worst courier (AU Post, first hand experience, I ran a post office for 6 years) known to me couldn't damage the screw caps to the point that they lost their integrity.

I'll give you a scenario that happened ... I had a bottle of Hugh Hamilton Jekyll & Hyde Shiraz Viognier 2010... Slipped out of a box and fell onto a carpeted floor. Glass was in no danger of breaking but the capsule appeared obviously damaged (murphy's law says the wine falls at precisely that angle to impact the screw cap). I put it in the fridge and drank a little while later and the wine was fine (similar to Odyssey's experience)... What I am wondering though is, this MW study does suggest SOME deterioration on moderate levels of damage just not dramatic deterioration over 10-weeks... Which does suggest even moderate damage might increase the penetration of oxygen ... so how do you then determine cellaring period??

PS its a cracking wine and I had already drunk bottle #1 and this was meant to go in the cellar for 10-15yrs

PPS we have mostly alluded to dents on the top but this impact had (seemingly) separated some of the little teeth attaching the screw cap top to the capsule ...

Well the study isn't complete. We don't know what the impact will be long term cause the study is only for 10 weeks...For all we know slight impact will be BETTER for the wine...

I get it though, she doesn't want to wait 5 years for her MW...

sjw_11 wrote:

ufo wrote:

sjw_11 wrote:Thanks Panda 9D ... To summarise for those too lazy to read the other article: 1) only Category D faults (the most extreme) generated a technical deterioration in the wine and this was 0.6% of samples not the 8% headline figure and 2) even then the sensory analysis did not identify the wines as flawed.

As they say: Myth Busted.

My personal concern remains... this was a 10-week study. What is the impact of say, category B or C damage, over a period of say 15 years? This damage being of a kind I might accidentally cause to my own bottles in transport or moving around the cellar. (something which always makes me a lot more nervous handling screw caps than corks). Not saying I dont still prefer screw caps but just to explain what it is I worry about.

I don't think you can casuse damage to the point that the screw cap loses seal integrity while moving your bottles around your cellar. If you do, you might wanna have a health check
If it happens during transport, change your courier. But in my experience of receiving screw capped bottles in past 10 years, even the worst courier (AU Post, first hand experience, I ran a post office for 6 years) known to me couldn't damage the screw caps to the point that they lost their integrity.

I'll give you a scenario that happened ... I had a bottle of Hugh Hamilton Jekyll & Hyde Shiraz Viognier 2010... Slipped out of a box and fell onto a carpeted floor. Glass was in no danger of breaking but the capsule appeared obviously damaged (murphy's law says the wine falls at precisely that angle to impact the screw cap). I put it in the fridge and drank a little while later and the wine was fine (similar to Odyssey's experience)... What I am wondering though is, this MW study does suggest SOME deterioration on moderate levels of damage just not dramatic deterioration over 10-weeks... Which does suggest even moderate damage might increase the penetration of oxygen ... so how do you then determine cellaring period??

PS its a cracking wine and I had already drunk bottle #1 and this was meant to go in the cellar for 10-15yrs

PPS we have mostly alluded to dents on the top but this impact had (seemingly) separated some of the little teeth attaching the screw cap top to the capsule ...

Well, that sounds like one of accident and you had a very practical solution to it
if you are in any doubt about the integrity of a screw cap seal, just lay it sideways for a day or two as I mentione before. If it doesn't leak, the seal is in perfect condition, nothing to worry about. I have proof with many over 10 year old wines.

Polymer wrote:I have a hard time believing those statistics though..1 out of 4 screwcaps are damaged? and 8% of the wine has been compromised? I dunno...that doesn't seem to fit right with what I see...

Maybe there are a ton of 5-10 dollar bottles no one cares about or notices that are skewing the results...Has anyone else seen this?

I do like the Luxe caps though..they feel nicer and seem a bit more resistant to damage...but someone told me they're not as consistent tightness wise? Not sure..

I buy my fair share of bottled wine and never had a damaged stelvin. Perhaps the figures quoted include returned/damaged stock? Recently I bought a bottle of Mclaren Vale 3 Associates Squid Ink and went through 36 bottles looking for the best one to paint. Not one of those bottles was damaged. Sure, that's a small dip sample but I have been doing this for years. Good post.

If that many were returned the wineries would stop using screwcaps as it would not make business sense. Still find those statistics hard to swallow.

I'm not as critical of corks as others are on this board but I find the statistic hard to believe. The knock against screw caps have not been about their reliability to maintain a seal but rather the problem of sulphur adjustment and reduction but that I understand has been overcome.

Actually I rather like the idea of fresh young white wines under screw cap.

Mahmoud.

Panda 9D wrote:http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/wine-science/more-on-the-mw-dissertation-claims-about-screwcap-damage

That's that.

Because I cannot help myself, I have to post this reply which the author of the paper has made to Jamie Goode's article questioning her methodology:

"Alison Eisermann Ctercteko
November 11th, 2013 at 9:24 am
Hi Jamie,

I am sorry that there is still seems to be a misinterpretation of the data. The tables of data in the results for A420, TSO2, FSO2 show the mean changes and SD to levels of these components following analysis. The statistical analysis undertaken with the guidance of Senior lecturer in Statistics and Mathematics confirmed the significance of the data. While the oxidation changes are small they are present and after a very short time period (4weeks) which is of most concern. I think you have focused on one only part of the research, which I stand by with confidence, of which there were many more highly relevant to the trade such as the overall cap damage level of 26%, that wines in wooden and metal display racks have 56% damage level! that coloured and printed screw caps have 4-5 times damage level of standard black caps etc. The scepticism of your followers shows many have not read the initial journal article but happy to follow your opinion and interpretation. Many bloggers have attacked my research, the dissertation and the IMW. They may like to first view the article form their own opinion and take up the MW challenge!" (my emphasis)

She emphasises the key point which was my concern: even if the impact of minor screw cap damage over 4-weeks is marginal (but there is SOME impact)... what is the impact over 5-yrs, 10-yrs, or 25-yrs versus an undamaged screw cap or vs a cork??

As a secondary question, does this again emphasise the need/desire to buy your wine anywhere but the big chains, where it is likely to have passed through a long and convoluted supply chain where such minor damage is much more likely to occur?

I remember reading this topic when it first arose and now I find myself in the position where I think I may be the victim of a dodgy screwcap bottle!

Yesterday I splashed out and bought myself a 2010 Wynns John Riddoch from a large chain store.

I stored it securely at home on its side until I had a chance to drop it off at my offsite storage locker with a few other bottles.

I was utterly shocked to return to it today and find leakage stains all down the side of the tissue paper.

None of the other bottles had any obvious signs of leakage.

I've checked the screwcap and it seems to still be securely sealed, although there is a small dent on the top of the cap.

Interestingly, the starting point of the stain correlates to the bottom of the capsule - can these leak from the bottom of the capsule?

Thoughts?

Caught him in the act!

Diddy,

I'd be shocked if Wynns wouldn't replace that.

Cheers
Ian

Diddy, thanks for the tip, have sealed cases of JR from 03 (think they were the first under screw-cap but will have to check) to 2010.
Perhaps my slackness, laziness or indeed have been probably seduced like many that I can forget about wines under screw cap for decades, will see me now open all boxes.
Makes me think a little more about the hundreds of other WCE wines that I have under screw-cap, that I have never looked at.

Cheers
Craig.

PS. will be interesting if auction houses identify dented screw-caps much in the same way they do for cellar scuffed labels, weeping corks etc.

ticklenow1 wrote:Diddy,

I'd be shocked if Wynns wouldn't replace that.

Cheers
Ian

I spoke to the retailer this morning and they seemed more than happy to facilitate an exchange - good customer service!