PaulV wrote:Sent all mine off to auction many moons ago
Did the same here. IMHO, overrated, but each to his own.
TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Did the same here. IMHO, overrated, but each to his own.
Cheers,
David
David
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
I try to be respectful and acknowledge that we can not like all wines and styles...
I do not possess a single bottle of sauv blanc, chardonnay or pinot...some would suggest I need to get out of my cave.
Wendouree is a bit of an enigma
I have a friend who cannot drink it...he says the wines are too strong
I love 'em, the bold brash maybe somewhat disjointed out of whack style where all components "don't talk" to each other.
But Wendouree to me is a story, a tradition, not very many like Tony Brady, reserved but generous.
The business model is the best bar none...good things come to those who are patient....3000 or so yearly case production, no release in poor vintages and a mailing list that generally sorts it self out.
The wines have not shifted in price in 3-4 vintages...no other winery that I know of can state that. Tony has resisted the temptation to increase price, sell the business etc...really looks after the little guy.
The packaging and distribution routine is timeless
And if you are one of those scalper types who flicks straight away...be off with you.
However, if you are sitting on a few at 15 years plus and you don't like them...then flog them off..most of us here would think that is reasonable.
Anyway will keep buying...not many wines that I am aware of at $50 that have this level of interest around them.
My 2c
Craig.
ps. Ian, if you have looked at other Wendourees in the past, did the recent tasting stack up, or generally were more bottles this time dissappointing?
I do not possess a single bottle of sauv blanc, chardonnay or pinot...some would suggest I need to get out of my cave.
Wendouree is a bit of an enigma
I have a friend who cannot drink it...he says the wines are too strong
I love 'em, the bold brash maybe somewhat disjointed out of whack style where all components "don't talk" to each other.
But Wendouree to me is a story, a tradition, not very many like Tony Brady, reserved but generous.
The business model is the best bar none...good things come to those who are patient....3000 or so yearly case production, no release in poor vintages and a mailing list that generally sorts it self out.
The wines have not shifted in price in 3-4 vintages...no other winery that I know of can state that. Tony has resisted the temptation to increase price, sell the business etc...really looks after the little guy.
The packaging and distribution routine is timeless
And if you are one of those scalper types who flicks straight away...be off with you.
However, if you are sitting on a few at 15 years plus and you don't like them...then flog them off..most of us here would think that is reasonable.
Anyway will keep buying...not many wines that I am aware of at $50 that have this level of interest around them.
My 2c
Craig.
ps. Ian, if you have looked at other Wendourees in the past, did the recent tasting stack up, or generally were more bottles this time dissappointing?
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
phillisc wrote:ps. Ian, if you have looked at other Wendourees in the past, did the recent tasting stack up, or generally were more bottles this time dissappointing?
The thing about Wendouree verticals like this one is they always tend to generate a lot of interest and discussion, and often bring up more questions than answers. The Shiraz Mataro vertical three years ago changed my way of thinking, that is not to expect blockbuster wines: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11522
To be honest, this time around the Shiraz vertical was overall about what I was expecting, more flesh/fruit-weight than the Shiraz Mataro to match the tannins resulting in (perhaps surprisingly) a little more approachability in their youth. As others have mentioned here they have a noticeable volatility, which with the typical Clare mint/greenness seems to result in more EA (nail polish) characters than outright VA (varnish) like lift on the nose.
The approachability of the 2008 was a surprise (even though Dave Brooks for some years - and more recently James Halliday - have said they seem to be made more approachable since the early naughties). Maybe the warmer vintage could be a factor (coincidentally like 2003 & 2001 which seem to already be at their peak), although it could also be partly because of the double decant.
For that matter, the across the board double decant policy may have also contributed to the very poor showing of the 1996 & 1993 vintages - I have no idea what shape they were in before the decant, they may have been DOA, or it may have finished them off before they reached the table. That said, the 1991 & 1989 vintages came up okay, even the 1985 had some life, and the cellaring history of all the bottles were good. The obvious (seemingly American) oak in some of the older vintages was another surprise, given that we were generally expecting older/more neutral oak - again, it seemed to come up in the more fragile wines where the fruit was gone.
Cheers,
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
As one of the many ex-followers of this regularly revered winery, firstly, I must applaud those who remain so loyal to Wendouree's particular brand of winemaking, although I detect a sense of masochism from some of the musings above. I must also admit, I very much liked Tony Brady the few times I talked with him over the phone many, many years ago. His candidness reminded me, in a more subdued way, of the late Dr. John Middleton (of Mount Mary fame), with his passion for the heritage of what he had acquired from the Birk family (Roly Birk made wine at Wendouree well into his eighties circa the early 1980's when promising young winemaker, Stephen George, came onto the scene at Wendouree to help out) and a deft levelheadedness regarding what and how much he made (low cropping levels etc), who he sold it too and what he sold it for. He was also not particularly fond of those who flicked his wines immediately after his yearly allocation was snapped up, trying to make some sort of a killing through the secondary market. And I hope that one day, I can sit down with a glass of Wendouree red and say "wow"! I was happy to hear the massiveness of Wendouree's reds had been pulled back some time ago, but I haven't tried one yet that has blown me away. But, I repeat, I still hold hope for an "otherworldly" experience to materialise from these good people.
Secondly, if you put aside all the goodwill in the world, the wonderful continuing history including their 120 year old vines and also some of the spin that goes with the territory (always a 5 star winery, Langton's Exceptional rating for their Shiraz etc) and have a very close and honest appraisals at Ian's notes what can we conclude? Not a whole lot, I'm afraid.
2011 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (screwcap): 13.7% alc. Medium to very dark red/purple. Inky nose of black cherries and blueberries at first, becoming more perfumed with choc/mint and cherry stones, a touch of citrus peel; a tart entry leads to a slightly sour, chalky, medium-weight palate of black jubes/pastilles and pepper, finishing long but with a little heat. Some people raved about this wine – I thought it was okay, a good result from an extremely difficult vintage.
2010 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (screwcap): 14% alc. Medium to dark red/purple. Inky nose but more stony, earthy and lifted than the 2011 vintage, with cherries, pepper, smoky chocolate and lanolin with breathing. A soft entry leads to a palate’s that a bit more than medium-weight, with sweeter/softer fruit than the 2011 vintage, some smokiness mid-palate flowing through to the finish. The acidity is sticking out at the moment making the wine a touch hot, unbalanced and awkward – give it time.
2008 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (screwcap): 14% alc. Medium to very dark crimson with a hint of purple left. The biggest nose of the first flight of four, very ripe, full of violets, choc/cherry, plum and paneforte, a touch of aged soy, cheese and diesel, then dark chocolate and dried herbs with more breathing. A soft entry leads to a smoky, medium to full-weight palate of chocolate and cherries with bright acidity mid-palate, finishing long with surprisingly soft tannins. Attractive, but also I feel this is an early drinker.
2006 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.6% alc. Medium to very dark crimson. The nose opens very similar to the 2008 vintage, big, bold and ripe with black cherry and plum, eucalyptus and bitter chocolate, lifted and slightly medicinal at times; with breathing there’s more paneforte, choc/cherry and violets, soy sauce and shoe polish. A soft entry leads to a big, chewy mid-palate, more tingly, tart and slightly stalky compared to the 2008 vintage, with touches of rum & raisin chocolate and citrus peel, finishing with brawny, chalky tannins. Very ripe and just a little unbalanced, but should come together beautifully with time.
2004 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.3% alc. Medium to very dark crimson. Very earthy and subdued nose at first with heavy eucalyptus characters, cedar/coconut oak, black cherry and liquorice, but a further whiff of damp cardboard hinted something wasn’t right. The cork taint is far more obvious on the palate, which is very dry and earthy, and completely stripped of fruit from the mid-palate to the finish. Bugger.
2003 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.5% alc. Medium to dark crimson/garnet. Violets, tar, choc/cherry, paneforte, eucalyptus and Earl Grey tea on the nose, some more obvious acetone/nail polish with breathing. The palate’s relatively big, approaching full-weight, full of cherry cola and thick, soft tannins that fan out in the mouth, well balanced with a long, soft finish. Like the 2008 vintage it’s surprisingly approachable and drinking very well now, not sure it’s a stayer though.
2002 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to very dark garnet/crimson. Bright and breezy nose, Cherry Ripe-like with its choc/cherry and coconut, some herbs, aged soy, lanolin and acetone/nail polish surface with breathing. A soft entry leads to a ripe and earthy palate with tangy rum & raisin and bright acidity mid-palate, finishing minty and slightly hot. Seems disjointed and a little disappointing next to the less heralded 2003 vintage – maybe it will come around?
2001 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.9% alc. Medium to very dark garnet. Very earthy and very black nose, porty in a good way and almost Touriga-like at times, full of red & black liquorice, shoe polish, wintergreen, smoke/oil and Earl Grey tea. The palate’s bright with red and black jubes, medium-weight but also soft and chocolatey with velvety tannins on the finish. Another pleasant surprise, but I’d say it’s right at its peak.
1999 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to almost dark red/garnet. The first wine tonight that appears to exhibit some American oak characters on the nose with obvious bubblegum/vanilla, varnish (VA) and nail polish remover (EA), followed by touches of diesel, peanut brittle and tanned leather. There’s sweeter/more primary fruit on the medium-weight palate, black cherry, soy and black tea, with grippy tannins fanning out on the finish, and bright acidity on the rebound. To be honest I was expecting a little more from what should have been a top vintage.
1998 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to almost dark garnet. Very similar nose to the 1999 vintage, full of aged soy, bubblegum/vanillin oak, boot polish, and a little nail polish remover. A soft entry leads to a full-weight, sweet, tangy and tarry palate with plum, black cherry and black liquorice with a savoury mid-palate and dark chocolate accents, finishing very long. A well developed wine at its peak, the second best wine of the vertical tonight.
1996 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.5% alc. Medium garnet/brick. Herbal and stocky, with dominant VA and coriander characters, becoming more stocky and mousy with breathing; a sour entry leads to a dry palate with tobacco and no primary fruit, bourbon oak mid-palate, and a dry, minty finish and bitter rebound. A rude shock for what was expected to be one of the top wines of the vertical - I’m not sure if it was the cool vintage or a bad bottle, but this example was well past its best.
1993 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.6% alc. Medium garnet/brick. Smells badly oxidised right from the first whiff, the bare remnants of honeyed/bourbon oak and boot polish characters at first, turning disturbingly mousy very quickly; the palate’s just as badly shot, completely dried out, bitter and devoid of any remnants fruit. This must have died some years ago.
1991 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.5% alc. Medium to almost dark brick. Lovely development on the nose, comfy leather couch, toasted/tart berries, minty chocolate & a touch of nail polish (Reynella-like at times), engine oil and peanut brittle, eucalypt and ground paprika. The palate’s also in great shape, ripe berries on entry leading to a tarry, jubey mid-palate, finishing with long, velvety tannins that are almost Burgundy-like. The best wine of the vertical, a benchmark for Wendouree at its peak.
1989 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to almost dark brick, slightly lighter than the 1991 vintage. Very oily nose with diesel fumes and VA lift, settling down to reveal cherry cola, old leather and violets. A soft entry is followed by a big build up of acidity mid-palate matched by choc/cherry fruit and coconut oak, finishing long and smoky with grippy but soft tannins and a little heat. For an unheralded vintage this was looking pretty good, not in the same league as the 1991 but much better than expected.
1987 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium brick. The nose is well past its best, leathery and stocky with burnt tobacco and shoe polish, remnants of coriander and honeyed oak; the palate’s also seen better days, a tangy entry leading to the remnants of sweet, bourbon oak and tobacco, finishing hot and mousy. DOA.
1985 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): No official record of the alcohol level, believed to be somewhere between 13.3 and 13.7%. Light to almost medium brick. Opens with boot polish, cedar oak, chocolate and cherry cola, some nail polish remover (EA) adding lift, vegetal characters appearing with breathing. The palate is just hanging in there, it has good weight with grippy tannins running through its length, and a delicate balance of sweet cherry fruit, acid and vanillin oak mid-palate, finishing dry and smoky. Drink up.
Sixteen vintages from one of our top producer's with about half seemingly hardly acceptable for the marque, a couple of standouts, the 1991 and 1998, a few dead, one corked .... I could go on but it's all there in black and white. Would a 16 vintage vertical over a 28 year period of Grange or Hill of Grace or 707 or Moss Wood or Mount Mary fare such as this? Even allowing for the occasional poor season or bad bottle, I'm confident, all things being equal, labels such as these would render far bettter results. I've often heard praise from many a wise wine guru of the ability of the great wine houses of the world to deliver something of class and breed even from the most difficult vintages.
So, I rest my rather deflating case. Please remember, I'm not a vehement critic of this winery. I admire the Brady's 40 year commitment to a magnificent piece of Australia's wine heritage and respect and applaud their commitment and courage in a most difficult and challenging industry (especially of late). I just feel that with the material they have to work with, their best efforts have yet to greet us. As Ian said about the 2010 - give it time.
Secondly, if you put aside all the goodwill in the world, the wonderful continuing history including their 120 year old vines and also some of the spin that goes with the territory (always a 5 star winery, Langton's Exceptional rating for their Shiraz etc) and have a very close and honest appraisals at Ian's notes what can we conclude? Not a whole lot, I'm afraid.
2011 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (screwcap): 13.7% alc. Medium to very dark red/purple. Inky nose of black cherries and blueberries at first, becoming more perfumed with choc/mint and cherry stones, a touch of citrus peel; a tart entry leads to a slightly sour, chalky, medium-weight palate of black jubes/pastilles and pepper, finishing long but with a little heat. Some people raved about this wine – I thought it was okay, a good result from an extremely difficult vintage.
2010 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (screwcap): 14% alc. Medium to dark red/purple. Inky nose but more stony, earthy and lifted than the 2011 vintage, with cherries, pepper, smoky chocolate and lanolin with breathing. A soft entry leads to a palate’s that a bit more than medium-weight, with sweeter/softer fruit than the 2011 vintage, some smokiness mid-palate flowing through to the finish. The acidity is sticking out at the moment making the wine a touch hot, unbalanced and awkward – give it time.
2008 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (screwcap): 14% alc. Medium to very dark crimson with a hint of purple left. The biggest nose of the first flight of four, very ripe, full of violets, choc/cherry, plum and paneforte, a touch of aged soy, cheese and diesel, then dark chocolate and dried herbs with more breathing. A soft entry leads to a smoky, medium to full-weight palate of chocolate and cherries with bright acidity mid-palate, finishing long with surprisingly soft tannins. Attractive, but also I feel this is an early drinker.
2006 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.6% alc. Medium to very dark crimson. The nose opens very similar to the 2008 vintage, big, bold and ripe with black cherry and plum, eucalyptus and bitter chocolate, lifted and slightly medicinal at times; with breathing there’s more paneforte, choc/cherry and violets, soy sauce and shoe polish. A soft entry leads to a big, chewy mid-palate, more tingly, tart and slightly stalky compared to the 2008 vintage, with touches of rum & raisin chocolate and citrus peel, finishing with brawny, chalky tannins. Very ripe and just a little unbalanced, but should come together beautifully with time.
2004 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.3% alc. Medium to very dark crimson. Very earthy and subdued nose at first with heavy eucalyptus characters, cedar/coconut oak, black cherry and liquorice, but a further whiff of damp cardboard hinted something wasn’t right. The cork taint is far more obvious on the palate, which is very dry and earthy, and completely stripped of fruit from the mid-palate to the finish. Bugger.
2003 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.5% alc. Medium to dark crimson/garnet. Violets, tar, choc/cherry, paneforte, eucalyptus and Earl Grey tea on the nose, some more obvious acetone/nail polish with breathing. The palate’s relatively big, approaching full-weight, full of cherry cola and thick, soft tannins that fan out in the mouth, well balanced with a long, soft finish. Like the 2008 vintage it’s surprisingly approachable and drinking very well now, not sure it’s a stayer though.
2002 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to very dark garnet/crimson. Bright and breezy nose, Cherry Ripe-like with its choc/cherry and coconut, some herbs, aged soy, lanolin and acetone/nail polish surface with breathing. A soft entry leads to a ripe and earthy palate with tangy rum & raisin and bright acidity mid-palate, finishing minty and slightly hot. Seems disjointed and a little disappointing next to the less heralded 2003 vintage – maybe it will come around?
2001 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.9% alc. Medium to very dark garnet. Very earthy and very black nose, porty in a good way and almost Touriga-like at times, full of red & black liquorice, shoe polish, wintergreen, smoke/oil and Earl Grey tea. The palate’s bright with red and black jubes, medium-weight but also soft and chocolatey with velvety tannins on the finish. Another pleasant surprise, but I’d say it’s right at its peak.
1999 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to almost dark red/garnet. The first wine tonight that appears to exhibit some American oak characters on the nose with obvious bubblegum/vanilla, varnish (VA) and nail polish remover (EA), followed by touches of diesel, peanut brittle and tanned leather. There’s sweeter/more primary fruit on the medium-weight palate, black cherry, soy and black tea, with grippy tannins fanning out on the finish, and bright acidity on the rebound. To be honest I was expecting a little more from what should have been a top vintage.
1998 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to almost dark garnet. Very similar nose to the 1999 vintage, full of aged soy, bubblegum/vanillin oak, boot polish, and a little nail polish remover. A soft entry leads to a full-weight, sweet, tangy and tarry palate with plum, black cherry and black liquorice with a savoury mid-palate and dark chocolate accents, finishing very long. A well developed wine at its peak, the second best wine of the vertical tonight.
1996 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.5% alc. Medium garnet/brick. Herbal and stocky, with dominant VA and coriander characters, becoming more stocky and mousy with breathing; a sour entry leads to a dry palate with tobacco and no primary fruit, bourbon oak mid-palate, and a dry, minty finish and bitter rebound. A rude shock for what was expected to be one of the top wines of the vertical - I’m not sure if it was the cool vintage or a bad bottle, but this example was well past its best.
1993 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.6% alc. Medium garnet/brick. Smells badly oxidised right from the first whiff, the bare remnants of honeyed/bourbon oak and boot polish characters at first, turning disturbingly mousy very quickly; the palate’s just as badly shot, completely dried out, bitter and devoid of any remnants fruit. This must have died some years ago.
1991 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.5% alc. Medium to almost dark brick. Lovely development on the nose, comfy leather couch, toasted/tart berries, minty chocolate & a touch of nail polish (Reynella-like at times), engine oil and peanut brittle, eucalypt and ground paprika. The palate’s also in great shape, ripe berries on entry leading to a tarry, jubey mid-palate, finishing with long, velvety tannins that are almost Burgundy-like. The best wine of the vertical, a benchmark for Wendouree at its peak.
1989 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium to almost dark brick, slightly lighter than the 1991 vintage. Very oily nose with diesel fumes and VA lift, settling down to reveal cherry cola, old leather and violets. A soft entry is followed by a big build up of acidity mid-palate matched by choc/cherry fruit and coconut oak, finishing long and smoky with grippy but soft tannins and a little heat. For an unheralded vintage this was looking pretty good, not in the same league as the 1991 but much better than expected.
1987 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): 13.7% alc. Medium brick. The nose is well past its best, leathery and stocky with burnt tobacco and shoe polish, remnants of coriander and honeyed oak; the palate’s also seen better days, a tangy entry leading to the remnants of sweet, bourbon oak and tobacco, finishing hot and mousy. DOA.
1985 Wendouree Shiraz, Clare Valley (cork): No official record of the alcohol level, believed to be somewhere between 13.3 and 13.7%. Light to almost medium brick. Opens with boot polish, cedar oak, chocolate and cherry cola, some nail polish remover (EA) adding lift, vegetal characters appearing with breathing. The palate is just hanging in there, it has good weight with grippy tannins running through its length, and a delicate balance of sweet cherry fruit, acid and vanillin oak mid-palate, finishing dry and smoky. Drink up.
Sixteen vintages from one of our top producer's with about half seemingly hardly acceptable for the marque, a couple of standouts, the 1991 and 1998, a few dead, one corked .... I could go on but it's all there in black and white. Would a 16 vintage vertical over a 28 year period of Grange or Hill of Grace or 707 or Moss Wood or Mount Mary fare such as this? Even allowing for the occasional poor season or bad bottle, I'm confident, all things being equal, labels such as these would render far bettter results. I've often heard praise from many a wise wine guru of the ability of the great wine houses of the world to deliver something of class and breed even from the most difficult vintages.
So, I rest my rather deflating case. Please remember, I'm not a vehement critic of this winery. I admire the Brady's 40 year commitment to a magnificent piece of Australia's wine heritage and respect and applaud their commitment and courage in a most difficult and challenging industry (especially of late). I just feel that with the material they have to work with, their best efforts have yet to greet us. As Ian said about the 2010 - give it time.
Cheers,
David
David
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
No offense, but highlighting some of those tasting notes and resting your case doesn't mean much....It is if those are all objective facts in "black and white" when they're not facts at all.. I get it, you think Wendouree is overrated. That's fair enough.
But stuff you're apparently pointing out as apparent issues..like the Ethyl Acetate...I think of as typical to Wendouree...Is it so overwhelming that it is considered a wine fault? I don't think so...I think most people consider it part of their style...It could be their process lends itself to bits of flaws that ends up being their style...Again, some people are really turned off by this..and some aren't.
There does seem to a turning point for a lot of Wendouree wines...where it starts appealing to more people..I think a lot of people wait and wait and wait wondering when that will come and maybe it never does...it did for a particular wine and didn't for others.....Personally I think if you don't enjoy a relatively young Wendouree you are probably wasting your time hoping for that change. It may happen, it may not...but if you don't enjoy the texture, mouthfeel and uniqueness that is present when they're relatively young, I don't see a point in gambling it may change.
I think Grange, HoG, Moss Wood Cab and Mount Mary(some) are all consistently good wine...and I've had a few standouts of each..but often I find them really "four square". All objectively very good...but anything incredibly interesting? I dunno...I think an overwhelming majority on here felt the 07/08 Grange had no soul at the Langtons event. Objectively very good..but absolutely nothing interesting about it.
I think it is safe to say, Wendouree is going to be divisive...that is the style of the wine...it isn't going to please everyone..it isn't meant to please everyone. I don't think people should expect it to please everyone. People that enjoy it, really do enjoy it...I think it is pretty unfair for people to make a comment like they think people like it because those people think they're supposed to like it....It is really more of a case of, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't a good wine. I think there are enough knowledgeable wine people out there that enjoy it to safely say that.
But stuff you're apparently pointing out as apparent issues..like the Ethyl Acetate...I think of as typical to Wendouree...Is it so overwhelming that it is considered a wine fault? I don't think so...I think most people consider it part of their style...It could be their process lends itself to bits of flaws that ends up being their style...Again, some people are really turned off by this..and some aren't.
There does seem to a turning point for a lot of Wendouree wines...where it starts appealing to more people..I think a lot of people wait and wait and wait wondering when that will come and maybe it never does...it did for a particular wine and didn't for others.....Personally I think if you don't enjoy a relatively young Wendouree you are probably wasting your time hoping for that change. It may happen, it may not...but if you don't enjoy the texture, mouthfeel and uniqueness that is present when they're relatively young, I don't see a point in gambling it may change.
I think Grange, HoG, Moss Wood Cab and Mount Mary(some) are all consistently good wine...and I've had a few standouts of each..but often I find them really "four square". All objectively very good...but anything incredibly interesting? I dunno...I think an overwhelming majority on here felt the 07/08 Grange had no soul at the Langtons event. Objectively very good..but absolutely nothing interesting about it.
I think it is safe to say, Wendouree is going to be divisive...that is the style of the wine...it isn't going to please everyone..it isn't meant to please everyone. I don't think people should expect it to please everyone. People that enjoy it, really do enjoy it...I think it is pretty unfair for people to make a comment like they think people like it because those people think they're supposed to like it....It is really more of a case of, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't a good wine. I think there are enough knowledgeable wine people out there that enjoy it to safely say that.
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Well everyone can agree that it's a kickass label, right?
And it seems like Polymer forgot to mention in his last message that if anyone wants to sell him any of their old Wendouree stock, he'd be happy to buy them
And it seems like Polymer forgot to mention in his last message that if anyone wants to sell him any of their old Wendouree stock, he'd be happy to buy them
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
What was that phrase...no great old wines..just great old bottles.
Polymer...think you are spot on
David...not far behind but to deflect to Grange and HoG...I have had many of those where I am scratching the head....is that all there is and for 00s of dollars.
Still convinced for $50 Wendouree is a safe bet.
What is needed is another tasting to cornfirm results, or a tasting which may look at 90, 91, 96, 98 and perhaps the first vintage under scew cap across the range.
Cheers Craig.
Polymer...think you are spot on
David...not far behind but to deflect to Grange and HoG...I have had many of those where I am scratching the head....is that all there is and for 00s of dollars.
Still convinced for $50 Wendouree is a safe bet.
What is needed is another tasting to cornfirm results, or a tasting which may look at 90, 91, 96, 98 and perhaps the first vintage under scew cap across the range.
Cheers Craig.
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Panda 9D wrote:And it seems like Polymer forgot to mention in his last message that if anyone wants to sell him any of their old Wendouree stock, he'd be happy to buy them
Yeah, Polymer shhhhh just let people talk down the wines and then we should be able to buy them cheap!...
------------------------------------
Sam
Sam
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
And yes Panda, I think I especially like them because of the labels to be honest! (I give them 3 points for the visual appearance of the bottles... 
)
)------------------------------------
Sam
Sam
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
sjw_11 wrote:Panda 9D wrote:And it seems like Polymer forgot to mention in his last message that if anyone wants to sell him any of their old Wendouree stock, he'd be happy to buy them
Yeah, Polymer shhhhh just let people talk down the wines and then we should be able to buy them cheap!...
Haha..I don't think I have to do anything..you can just look at the secondary market..it isn't that great for them anyways..The Shiraz is not too bad but everything else I'd guess people are basically breaking even if not losing some money in some cases...
It just doesn't have that wide appeal...totally understandable...If it did, and everyone liked it as much as some, I think the prices would be a lot higher...
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Polymer wrote:No offense, but highlighting some of those tasting notes and resting your case doesn't mean much....It is if those are all objective facts in "black and white" when they're not facts at all.. I get it, you think Wendouree is overrated. That's fair enough.
But stuff you're apparently pointing out as apparent issues..like the Ethyl Acetate...I think of as typical to Wendouree...Is it so overwhelming that it is considered a wine fault? I don't think so...I think most people consider it part of their style...It could be their process lends itself to bits of flaws that ends up being their style...Again, some people are really turned off by this..and some aren't.
There does seem to a turning point for a lot of Wendouree wines...where it starts appealing to more people..I think a lot of people wait and wait and wait wondering when that will come and maybe it never does...it did for a particular wine and didn't for others.....Personally I think if you don't enjoy a relatively young Wendouree you are probably wasting your time hoping for that change. It may happen, it may not...but if you don't enjoy the texture, mouthfeel and uniqueness that is present when they're relatively young, I don't see a point in gambling it may change.
I think Grange, HoG, Moss Wood Cab and Mount Mary(some) are all consistently good wine...and I've had a few standouts of each..but often I find them really "four square". All objectively very good...but anything incredibly interesting? I dunno...I think an overwhelming majority on here felt the 07/08 Grange had no soul at the Langtons event. Objectively very good..but absolutely nothing interesting about it.
I think it is safe to say, Wendouree is going to be divisive...that is the style of the wine...it isn't going to please everyone..it isn't meant to please everyone. I don't think people should expect it to please everyone. People that enjoy it, really do enjoy it...I think it is pretty unfair for people to make a comment like they think people like it because those people think they're supposed to like it....It is really more of a case of, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't a good wine. I think there are enough knowledgeable wine people out there that enjoy it to safely say that.
And just because you have the temerity to say it doesn't mean much "resting my case" on "those tasting notes", please do everyone a huge favour and answer a few basic questions so we know where you're coming from .......
What's your real name?
How long have you been drinking wine?
How many tasting notes have you posted on this forum or any other? Do you have a wine blog? Have you had articles published in magazines, newspapers or journals?
How long have you been drinking Wendouree? What vintages and roughly how many bottles of each have you drunk over what sort of period?
How long have you been drinking Grange, Hill of Grace, Moss Wood, 707 and Mount Mary? What vintages and roughly how many bottles of each have you drunk and over what sort of period?
Why would you doubt someone making assertions based on the validity of the tasting notes from, not only this board's, but, IMHO, one of this country's, foremost wine palate/writer on (what I read/believe to be) well cellared bottles from known members of a leading Adelaide Wine Club?
Answer these questions and you comments/opinions might command a little more respect.
How can you post such something as incomprehensible as "It is if those are all objective facts in "black and white" when they're not facts at all"? It's only my "opinion" Polymer, and just because you beg to differ with my opinion, you launch a personal attack and degrade my assertions on a subject I believe I have ample tasting experince to comment on.
For me, one of the most disturbing problems with forums has been the faceless people who vilify others behind a handy anonym.
I look forward to you coming forward with answers to all the questions I pose so as we continue to discuss this and other matters.
Cheers,
David
David
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
dlo wrote:It's only my "opinion" Polymer, and just because you beg to differ with my opinion, you launch a personal attack
David, I can't personally see a personal attack in the post quoted. I'm sure Polymer will likely clarify but I have to feel it is a misunderstanding as I've met Polymer and I don't think he is the kind of person that would have had any intention to offend.
He is entitled to his opinion no matter his experience and I'm glad to read his contributions as I think they are well thought out.
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
camw wrote:dlo wrote:It's only my "opinion" Polymer, and just because you beg to differ with my opinion, you launch a personal attack
David, I can't personally see a personal attack in the post quoted. I'm sure Polymer will likely clarify but I have to feel it is a misunderstanding as I've met Polymer and I don't think he is the kind of person that would have had any intention to offend.
He is entitled to his opinion no matter his experience and I'm glad to read his contributions as I think they are well thought out.
I'll take what you have posted on board, Cam, thanks.
Cheers,
David
David
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Interesting reading - there are plenty of wines that I love and plenty I don't. I can't drink anything with viogner in it and don't much like savvy blancs. I don't lose sleep over this and I don't worry when others don't love my old Wendourees as much as me. Its bleeding obvious that Ian doesn't love most Wendourees that have past his lips in the last month but I'm not overly worried that this will have any impact on my enjoyment of them. Each to his own - my palate is different to his - no better no worse just different. (Wish I could do tasting notes like he does though)! I think that I've drunk only about 50 Wendourees and enjoyed 49 of them so the strike rate has been pretty good.
If you can remember what a wine is like the next day you didn't drink enough of it
Peynaud
Peynaud
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
As a relative newcomer, I am greatly influenced by the input from the forum. From previous threads, Wendouree was on my bucket list, with me sourcing a 2010 Shiraz Malbec at a greatly inflated price from a Boutique Bottle Shop in Sydney. I intended to waiting another 10 years to see what all the fuss was about. However after reading Ian's notes, I think I will open it much earlier to see if it is my style of wine.
I can understand that "perfect" wines are good, however they don't challenge the intrigue of unusual wines. On the weekend I opened a 2002 Elderton Command Shiraz, which I would categorise as a perfect Barossa Shiraz, however I did not find it intriguing. Perhaps the Wendouree will fit into this category. The only way I will find out is to open a bottle.
Once again, I always find Ian's notes insightful and appreciate his efforts in posting such well written prose, as well as everyone else's input.
Cheers
Phil
I can understand that "perfect" wines are good, however they don't challenge the intrigue of unusual wines. On the weekend I opened a 2002 Elderton Command Shiraz, which I would categorise as a perfect Barossa Shiraz, however I did not find it intriguing. Perhaps the Wendouree will fit into this category. The only way I will find out is to open a bottle.
Once again, I always find Ian's notes insightful and appreciate his efforts in posting such well written prose, as well as everyone else's input.
Cheers
Phil
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Phil, you should get along to a few of the organised tastings that are always happening, plenty of opportunity to try a whole gamut of different wines in a relaxed environment.
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Dave, thanks for the invite, I will have to take you up on your kind offer, I have read with great interest on previous gatherings.
Phil
Phil
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
dlo wrote:What's your real name?
I look forward to you coming forward with answers to all the questions I pose so as we continue to discuss this and other matters.
I'm not launching a personal attack at all....I'm not criticizing Ian's tasting notes but I am making comments about your interpretation of them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about a wine....but when you use certain subjective data (n4sir's palate might be fantastic but it is just his opinion) to assert what you're saying as a fact then I'm certainly entitled to point out that it isn't a fact (and yes I'm sure you do know it is an opinion). Maybe I read your post wrong but again, I'm not trying to offend you.. This is a WINE FORUM, there is little reason for anyone on here to be offended by anything. But to dive into this a bit more, I actually agree with a lot of what n4sir said in his tasting notes...But half the people interpreted it as EA = bad...Whereas I feel like I know exactly what he is saying (and he said it in another post) and that's just the style of the wine and the terroir...But even if I disagreed with his tasting notes, I'd have no issues with that nor should I feel the need to take someone else's opinion about a wine as better than my own assertion of a wine...just as anyone on here should be able to have their own opinion and not be worried about expressing it even in the face of "better" palates. Again, I don't take offense at things being said on a wine forum or any forum....no one, absolutely no one, should be offended if someone challenges or disagrees with their opinion...Forums that don't have some sort of back and forth discussion are incredibly useless and boring and they eventually just die..I also consider it to be very useful for other people that might not be familiar w/ the subject to read different opinions...I'm sure we have plenty of lurkers on here that benefit from multiple sided discussion..I know when I'm the lurker I do...
I go to the offlines and have met an ok chunk Sydney users on here so I don't consider myself a faceless user....and if we were talking about Wendouree in person, I'm sure your point would have been made differently and mine would have been too...and if you tried to tell me Wendouree isn't that good and quoted parts of some tasting notes to back your assertion I would've told you, that doesn't prove anything ...with a smile.
There is a Sydney Offline next week and we have spots open...you're more than welcome to come. My name is Kevin BTW...
But some additional information..not that it really matters...
I try about 1500-2000 wines a year...I don't write a lot of tasting notes because it takes a lot of time so I have a lot of respect for those guys that spend time writing their notes (n4sir, camw, richard jennings on CT, etc) because I know it takes a lot of dedication.
I'm not a Halliday fan. I have a lot of respect for him and his palate and his notes..but not his scores....but to add to that, I think most popular wine critics have the same affliction when it comes to scores.
Texture is one of if not the most important part about wine to me...which is one of the reasons why I enjoy Wendouree..
I tend to like higher acid wines...
I drink, almost exclusively, AU wines in AU. When in the US I tend to drink more from Piedmont, Bordeaux, Burgundy, Chinon, Vouvray and German Riesling...Some AU, Some NZ....
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Thanks Polymer, I can now see where you are coming from and accept most of what you put forward. The only point you need to work on is the relative correlations between opinion and fact. Apologies for jumping down your throat.
Perhaps best we leave it there and move on.
Enjoy your offline.
Perhaps best we leave it there and move on.
Enjoy your offline.
Cheers,
David
David
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
I did have one Wendouree wine that"blew me away"
It was drunk about 4 years ago, and it was a 1990 Galah shiraz.
This is the fruit not used in Wendouree, that Stephen George bought, and made his Galah wines with.
It was drunk about 4 years ago, and it was a 1990 Galah shiraz.
This is the fruit not used in Wendouree, that Stephen George bought, and made his Galah wines with.
When not drinking a fine red, I'm a cardboard claret man!
-
Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2760
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Re: TN: Wendouree Shiraz 1985-2011 Vertical 2/9/13
Polymer wrote:I try about 1500-2000 wines a year...
1500 + !!!! Wow... I thought opening 225 bottles last year was a lot........
I get your drift on the posting tasting notes.... I find it tedious too...
Cheers
Mike