The Auswine Forum

Nick11, you've lost me I'm afraid ... one minute you are bagging cool years, then the next you are espousing lighter styles and elegance

Malcolm, Tarija
I took Nicks first comment as a piss-take...i'm pretty sure if you assume its heavy sarcasm , the posts will make sense.

Nick, no point getting too fired up about posters making generalisations here, you'll end up cranky alot of the time as most of us on here (myself included) make them, often to simply provoke debate ...

Sarcasm is a difficult art in web forums... I wish I could remember that lesson but its still hard to resist.
As are generalisations!

Bloody Merlot...

Thanks for clarifying my posts Michael, I wasn't getting too fired up, just bored in a lecture and thought I would engage. It is annoying that whole vintages are written off though, it's almost impossible to have a complete write off these days with the technology at hand (bar hail/ frost etc). The producer clearly has the biggest impact on quality, and how high that can go obviously depends on what materials they have at their disposal (terroir etc), the best oarsman isn't going to be able to row a leaking boat. Vintage has more bearing on style and needs to be articulated more that way than as a quality determinant. What are you going to drink while all your perfect vintages are still unapproachable? Something from a year like '11.. Why not write off producers or sites instead?
Or instead of writing anything off, jut offer the best options at your disposal instead of saying something negative?

If you can't say anything nice.....

Nick11 wrote: it's almost impossible to have a complete write off these days with the technology at hand (bar hail/ frost etc).

Or bushfires...

sjw_11 wrote:

Nick11 wrote: it's almost impossible to have a complete write off these days with the technology at hand (bar hail/ frost etc).

Or bushfires...

yep. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Black Saturday taint that was on a number of 2009 Vic wines, particularly pinots.

Some of us like Islay Wines

Nick11 wrote: What are you going to drink while all your perfect vintages are still unapproachable? Something from a year like '11.. Why not write off producers or sites instead?
Or instead of writing anything off, jut offer the best options at your disposal instead of saying something negative?

If you can't say anything nice.....

Wine is a luxury item, and my money and time are finite resources. I don't have time to taste or read reviews for every single 2011 pinot noir from the eastern states. Almost every pinot noir I've had from 2011 in the eastern states I don't feel has been worth the priced charged.

Also, pinot noir is fickle enough to grow and vinify properly in good vintages, let alone in dog years like 2011. And let's not be too self-righteous, everyone uses generalisations. I'm sure you think that Australian wine is better than Indian wine...that liebfraumilch is inferior to riesling...that Penfolds Bin 28 is worse than Grange. Ad nauseum. At the end of the day, wine is expensive and people have limited resources, and thus have to be critical. We're not drinking freebies here.

Nick11 wrote:What are you going to drink while all your perfect vintages are still unapproachable?

Come on, we were discussing Australian pinot noir - there's not that many long-term Australian pinot noirs. This is not nebbiolo or 1st growth Bordeaux. How many Australian pinots are truly unapproachable and/or shut down like Burgundies? Probably zero, to be honest.

Also, there are 20-30 countries aside from Australia that also make fantastic wine, and hundreds of grape varieties out there. Plenty to drink while our non-2011 vintages come around.

In the meantime, please buy up all the 2011 pinot noirs on the shelf, thanks.

I actually don't think 2011 is that bad for Pinot in Australia..not from what I've tried so far...I'm sure a lot of places had issues..but what is out there seems to be pretty decent...Or maybe what I've tried has just been better than what I normally see in a normal year because of stylistic preference...

tarija wrote:

Nick11 wrote: What are you going to drink while all your perfect vintages are still unapproachable? Something from a year like '11.. Why not write off producers or sites instead?
Or instead of writing anything off, jut offer the best options at your disposal instead of saying something negative?

If you can't say anything nice.....

Wine is a luxury item, and my money and time are finite resources. I don't have time to taste or read reviews for every single 2011 pinot noir from the eastern states. Almost every pinot noir I've had from 2011 in the eastern states I don't feel has been worth the priced charged.

Also, pinot noir is fickle enough to grow and vinify properly in good vintages, let alone in dog years like 2011. And let's not be too self-righteous, everyone uses generalisations. I'm sure you think that Australian wine is better than Indian wine...that liebfraumilch is inferior to riesling...that Penfolds Bin 28 is worse than Grange. Ad nauseum. At the end of the day, wine is expensive and people have limited resources, and thus have to be critical. We're not drinking freebies here.

Nick11 wrote:What are you going to drink while all your perfect vintages are still unapproachable?

Come on, we were discussing Australian pinot noir - there's not that many long-term Australian pinot noirs. This is not nebbiolo or 1st growth Bordeaux. How many Australian pinots are truly unapproachable and/or shut down like Burgundies? Probably zero, to be honest.

Also, there are 20-30 countries aside from Australia that also make fantastic wine, and hundreds of grape varieties out there. Plenty to drink while our non-2011 vintages come around.

In the meantime, please buy up all the 2011 pinot noirs on the shelf, thanks.

Just for some context, what sort of sample size are we looking at with the 2011 Pinot's you have tried?

Nick11 wrote:Just for some context, what sort of sample size are we looking at with the 2011 Pinot's you have tried?

Around 10-20, with the majority at tastings. Supplement this with vintage reports, and reviews from professional writers and semi-pros/amateurs.

tarija wrote:

Nick11 wrote:Just for some context, what sort of sample size are we looking at with the 2011 Pinot's you have tried?

Around 10-20, with the majority at tastings. Supplement this with vintage reports, and reviews from professional writers and semi-pros/amateurs.

I have tasted quite a few 2011 Pinots, mostly from Yarra / Mornington regions. Now, I must point out that I like the "lighter" end of the spectrum...but I like lightness and power. It's fair to say most are "light"...but very few have had the power (length) that would convince me to buy. Some have been downright dreadful...herbal and sludgy. It's interesting to see how few producers submitted 2011's in the latest Halliday book...telling, I'd say. However, that is not to say there aren't some good wines out there...usually from top producers, who spent big on vineyard maintenance, and threw a LOT of fruit out. I love The Wanderer 2011, for example.

By the way, credit to Oceans 8 (I'm sure there are many more) for declassifying their 2011 as they weren't happy for people to buy at their regular retail.

simon1980

From what I've seen....Places like Geelong, Gippsland seem fine...

Yarra still had some pretty decent Pinots but a lot of them were not typical for that winery...I think a lot of places junked what they had...or were forced to actually make Pinot...some examples came out too green (and I like a bit of green). Some I actually think came out better than normal...

Bought some grosset 2010 pinot noir based on tastings at JG Cellar Door and it was terrific.
The balance of JG wines are just awesome and this is another good example.
Had a 2009 ashton hills pinot noir recently and it didn't do it for me like the JG pinot did.
Im probably a victim of too many BV fruit bombs which leaves my palette wanting when drinking pinot noir.
I think the JG pinot noir is a good 'transitional' pinot noir for those who've overdosed on the bigger bolder varietals.

tarija wrote:

Nick11 wrote:Just for some context, what sort of sample size are we looking at with the 2011 Pinot's you have tried?

Around 10-20, with the majority at tastings. Supplement this with vintage reports, and reviews from professional writers and semi-pros/amateurs.

I don't want to dwell too much so I leave it at this. If we take Halliday's site as a source given he clearly has the widest coverage of Australian wine, 325 2011 Pinots listed, which lets face it is a conservative figure, you have tried between 3 and 6% of Pinots from the vintage, hardly representative and worse at tastings which are entirely dependent on context of the tasting, think about how many of the great wines of the world wouldn't even be a blip on anyone's radar if their reputation was built on assessments at tastings. How is Biondi Santi going to look after a Banfi with 15% merlot or cabernet blended into it?

Not to mention "profesional writers" etc. the same writers who before the harvest wrote the vintage off as a disaster, and have subsequently back flipped about how lovely all the 11's are they are trying? And who are these writers, the standard and rigour of most Australian writers is par on their good days.

My point being don't you worry about the quality of your opinion, and what backs it up before you form it, and most importantly don't you feel a little guilty telling someone to write off a whole vintage of wines on a paper thin argument? or the producers who thrived in the vintage and went to great extents to put out a great wine only for some poor bloke in a position to buy one saying "no thanks, matey on the net told me 2011 was shithouse" ..

Backing up whoever referenced it above, Geelong/Moorabool looking fine for Pinot noir in 2011.

I've gone long on By Farr, and should check in on the Lethbridge Estate offerings too. they rarely put a foot wrong.

Nick11 wrote:I don't want to dwell too much so I leave it at this. If we take Halliday's site as a source given he clearly has the widest coverage of Australian wine, 325 2011 Pinots listed, which lets face it is a conservative figure, you have tried between 3 and 6% of Pinots from the vintage, hardly representative and worse at tastings which are entirely dependent on context of the tasting, think about how many of the great wines of the world wouldn't even be a blip on anyone's radar if their reputation was built on assessments at tastings. How is Biondi Santi going to look after a Banfi with 15% merlot or cabernet blended into it?

Not to mention "profesional writers" etc. the same writers who before the harvest wrote the vintage off as a disaster, and have subsequently back flipped about how lovely all the 11's are they are trying? And who are these writers, the standard and rigour of most Australian writers is par on their good days.

My point being don't you worry about the quality of your opinion, and what backs it up before you form it, and most importantly don't you feel a little guilty telling someone to write off a whole vintage of wines on a paper thin argument? or the producers who thrived in the vintage and went to great extents to put out a great wine only for some poor bloke in a position to buy one saying "no thanks, matey on the net told me 2011 was shithouse" ..

You say in your second paragraph to disregard professional wine writers...and then you subsequently seem worried that someone reading a small wine forum might pass on 2011 SE Aust pinot noir because of my thoughts on the matter?

Also, how many 2011 pinot noirs do you think I should taste before I can validate my personal opinion? 26? 100? 200? 325?

Is Penfolds Grange Australia's greatest wine? How many times have you tried it? And have you tried every other Australian wine so to confirm that Grange is better than them?

Your logic makes no sense.

tarija wrote:Your logic makes no sense.

It cannot be logic if it doesn't make sense surely?

Express your opinion without fear or favour Tarija. It is, after all, a forum!

Cheers

Michael

In my drinking and cellaring experience I've been surprised by reputable producer's wine from poor vintages doing remarkably well with age. Sometimes even modest wines have done well. Just the other day I was served a Cru Bourgeois Bordeaux from the supposedly dreadful 2002 vintage. It was lovely, not remarkable, but a nice, mature, balanced Bordeaux. It was served blind but the nose was unmistakably Bordeaux.

In the Pinot Noir vein I recall forgetting about an '82 Louis Martini Pinot Noir from California. I don't think there are vintage charts for California pinot noir that go back that far but it was an inexpensive bottle. It was over 20 years old when it was opened and it was a lovely old autumnal wine, light of course, but balanced and elegant. I probably served it with roast chicken.

Vintages can be poor and maybe more important in some regions but a good or reputable producer will always make the best wine they can. That's always worth considering.

Cheers....................Mahmoud.

Any other recommendations for PNs in this price range? We seem to have forgotten about the original post and gone all medieval on each others arses.

From the Canberra region I would keep an eye out for some Bourke Street, which is made by Alex McKay and Nick O'Leary. $20 for the 2010. Stonking value! You can order it from their website.

Cheers, Travis.

Just curious, did the OP eventually go with one of the pinots suggested here for the wedding?

So many opinions about the quality of Pinot Noir from the 2011 vintage. I'm assuming it's pointed mainly at Victorian pinots since there is comparatively less coming out of NSW. The tasmanian crop was only disturbed by rains when harvest was almost halfway through, so overall quality was still maintained.

It's amusing to me that the 2011 Yarra vintage was consistently described as a 'winemakers' vintage, one where the winemaker had a chance to sculpt the wine. Well, to me, if the winemaker didn't resort to their most inventive methods, they wouldn't be able to sell the wines. I've tasted close to 100 Yarra region wines from 2011, and I can't name any standouts. Tasting panels describe these wines as graceful, feminine, delicate. I found them thin, lacking flavour to a level that evokes my interest, and lacking in depth and complexity.

Tassie's 2012 vintage.. that's one to keep your eye on.

Just my 5cents.