The Auswine Forum

fatdoi wrote:

Loztralia wrote:
Finally - doesn't this argument about Penfold's Bin prices come up every year? They still seem to be selling the stuff so I guess the pricing can't be too far off whack.

i think it's because it's convenient for casual drinkers who want some well made wines but never bothered to research the market. Classic example, a dinner I went to recently was about 50 people & the hostess rolled out dozen+ 98' 389.... which gave me opportunity to review it as i don't want to pop mine @ home. Quite good, still young imo to drink now & I know she has no clue about wines as she only bought them because Penfold's a recognised brand + good vintage & there are ALOT of those people around so it's great business.

I think it's the brand that people keep buying Penfolds, it's like there're always people who buy Mercedes, do they always make better car?? I can always buy something cheaper & better but people buy them because of the Merc badge & the emotional or confidence they placed on that brand, so they're willing to pay that premium for good but not always the best cars.....

I guess that's actually why I think Penfold's have their pricing more or less right. They're hitting price points for casual buyers pretty well and yet the serious wine nerds still consider it worth debating whether the product is worthwhile. There are a few people on this thread who think the whole Bin range is wildly overpriced, there are some that make an exception for 389s, there are some that think the range is ok except 407... and so it goes on. The bottom line is that a sensible producer of any product will price it to the maximum point that the market will bear, and Penfold's seem to be right on that line.

I should declare my own view here though - I only buy 389s, I much prefer it to - for instance - any Two Hands garden series, and I don't drink them young.

Loztralia wrote:Finally - doesn't this argument about Penfold's Bin prices come up every year? They still seem to be selling the stuff so I guess the pricing can't be too far off whack.

Kerrrrchinnng ... answer in a line. See you next year for the same discussion.

This could be seen as a annual refresher course on Penfolds ................ Okay on that note i will see you next year

Regards Dazza

dazza1968 wrote:This could be seen as a annual refresher course on Penfolds ................ Okay on that note i will see you next year

Regards Dazza

Hang around for a little while dazza. We haven't had the Annual 'How over priced is Grange' thread yet.
Its great because you can use the emoticon alot.

Has anyone tried the new Bin 23 Pinot Noir?

Yes.

But not much point me mentioning my thoughts as I'll be hopelessly biased, completely off track and probably trying to start a conspiracy

Shouldn't be too hard to find at a tasting somewhere this month so you can make your own assessments..

AndrewCowley wrote:Has anyone tried the new Bin 23 Pinot Noir?

Ian wrote up the Bin 23 in the Penfolds thread that he posted only a few days ago.

sparky wrote:Yes.

But not much point me mentioning my thoughts as I'll be hopelessly biased, completely off track and probably trying to start a conspiracy

Shouldn't be too hard to find at a tasting somewhere this month so you can make your own assessments..

I think the issue is that other readers know what your 'interest' is. I know from other threads that you have a role with Fosters, although others may not. I would have no problems with you giving your views on a Fosters wine, as long as it was clear that you do have an interest. We should all be able to make up our own minds as to how much weight we give your comments. We do that anyway with other posters. For example, we can judge the usefulness of a comment on a Hunter red by what we know of the poster's general attitude to these wines.

What I don't like is where the poster's clear 'interest' in the wine is not disclosed. For example, a poster on another forum who highly lauded one of his wines ('best cab made in Australia' 2006) was outed by another winemaker as the maker of the 'best cab'. I was really annoyed to find out after being impressed by the claim.

I'm quite happy to see any winemaker, grower or seller applaud wines they are they associated with on this forum - subject of course to not offending the host's commercial interests - as long as I know where they are coming from.

So go for it - just remind us that you're with Fosters when you are talking about their wines.

sparky wrote:Yes.

But not much point me mentioning my thoughts as I'll be hopelessly biased, completely off track and probably trying to start a conspiracy

Shouldn't be too hard to find at a tasting somewhere this month so you can make your own assessments..

I think everyone knows you better than that Sparky... in fact I think the opinions of those with inside knowledge are fascinating because you learn the mindset of the company and why they have chosen to do things in a certain way.

qwertt nailed it, it's all about being upfront. I read the same thread as him and had exactly the same thoughts. Paul has not done his company any favours I think, and they were not in high regard to start off with. I don't like his attitude at all. Even not knowing who he was, I chafed at his implication that everybody must agree.

Whereas every time you have spoken in your Fosters cap you have done a fantastic job!

I think a lot of the discussion has been around the QPR of 407 and that is a legitimate discussion point. The price has risen significantly and disproportionately to the remainder of the Bin range on both RRP and "standard pricing" basis(although some discounting is evident in the market).

From my perspective the bin range offers good QPR apart from the 407, so I am not bashing Penfolds and their efforts. I like Penfolds wines across the range. I think it is yet to be established however that 407 justifys the new price point, I would like to see the results of the effort (with bottle age) that has been put into this label. Voyager (probably now at similar price points to 407) and Woodlands Magaret offer a good QPR.

and that ...is all personal oppinion

Just wondering: other than the cellar doors, anyone know where some of the tastings are done, and when? In Adelaide metro, that is.

Would love to go have a look for myself. 07 was not a good year for reds...

Cheers.

milky wrote:Just wondering: other than the cellar doors, anyone know where some of the tastings are done, and when? In Adelaide metro, that is.

Would love to go have a look for myself. 07 was not a good year for reds...

Last time I looked, out Magill Cellar Door WAS considered Adelaide Metro...you are being picky I do believe there may be a chain retailer opening bottles this weekend, but at the risk of offending our host, don't spend all your money there and bring some back here for Gavin.

And with those kind words of encouragement from odyssey & qwertt, the first thought that sprang to mind when I tasted the Bin 23 was 'Ballet dancer'...closely followed by 'Coryphee'.

Don't know if that's going to help you much....

sparky wrote:Last time I looked, out Magill Cellar Door WAS considered Adelaide Metro...you are being picky I do believe there may be a chain retailer opening bottles this weekend, but at the risk of offending our host, don't spend all your money there and bring some back here for Gavin.

Yes, I was being picky...

Will call that chain retailer to check... once I figured out which one, although not a lot to choose from.
I'll endeavour to buy somethign from Gavin in the near future!

Cheers.

Loztralia wrote:

fatdoi wrote:

Loztralia wrote:
Finally - doesn't this argument about Penfold's Bin prices come up every year? They still seem to be selling the stuff so I guess the pricing can't be too far off whack.

i think it's because it's convenient for casual drinkers who want some well made wines but never bothered to research the market. Classic example, a dinner I went to recently was about 50 people & the hostess rolled out dozen+ 98' 389.... which gave me opportunity to review it as i don't want to pop mine @ home. Quite good, still young imo to drink now & I know she has no clue about wines as she only bought them because Penfold's a recognised brand + good vintage & there are ALOT of those people around so it's great business.

I think it's the brand that people keep buying Penfolds, it's like there're always people who buy Mercedes, do they always make better car?? I can always buy something cheaper & better but people buy them because of the Merc badge & the emotional or confidence they placed on that brand, so they're willing to pay that premium for good but not always the best cars.....

I guess that's actually why I think Penfold's have their pricing more or less right. They're hitting price points for casual buyers pretty well and yet the serious wine nerds still consider it worth debating whether the product is worthwhile. There are a few people on this thread who think the whole Bin range is wildly overpriced, there are some that make an exception for 389s, there are some that think the range is ok except 407... and so it goes on. The bottom line is that a sensible producer of any product will price it to the maximum point that the market will bear, and Penfold's seem to be right on that line.

I should declare my own view here though - I only buy 389s, I much prefer it to - for instance - any Two Hands garden series, and I don't drink them young.

Or at least had their pricing right...They're really starting to price a lot of their stuff beyond the casual buyer..Single bottle 389 at retail is 70 dollars for the 2007...70. That's ridiculous... It's no wonder they sell it in OTHER countries for less because it won't sell for that elsewhere...

I'm not saying they're doing a bad job in what they're trying to do...which to me seems like move their Bin releases into the mid to upper market and sell their other stuff in the lower to mid market...I think this last round is a bit much..especially considering how they've been received so far (purely on taste not price) but we'll see....

Polymer wrote:Or at least had their pricing right...They're really starting to price a lot of their stuff beyond the casual buyer..Single bottle 389 at retail is 70 dollars for the 2007...70. That's ridiculous... It's no wonder they sell it in OTHER countries for less because it won't sell for that elsewhere...

Sure is...but Ive seen it at retial for $42 as a single bottle price. $70 is not even trying to shop around!

Right..You can find it cheaper but the point is, at any ole retail place it's now 70? Not to mention at any ole retail place in other countries you can find it cheaper than in Australia...I'm sure they're just releasing it at what they believe the market will support but I really think they got this one wrong as shown by stores selling it for 42 when RRP is apparently 70 (or was that just wrong?).

Seen Bin 389 for less than $40 in any 6pk at one of the supermarkets today - the other would probably reduce the price another $0.05. Wonder if enough to-ing and fro-ing would result in it being available for $0.05/btl

But this is common with many wines, we frequently scoff at supposed RRP and all know what the "street" price is - how is this different?

Polymer wrote:Right..You can find it cheaper but the point is, at any ole retail place it's now 70? Not to mention at any ole retail place in other countries you can find it cheaper than in Australia...I'm sure they're just releasing it at what they believe the market will support but I really think they got this one wrong as shown by stores selling it for 42 when RRP is apparently 70 (or was that just wrong?).

I don't often see wine released per bottle at 40% off as a new release...selling at retail stores...To be honest, I haven't seen it that low nor am I really that interested to try to look but if that is the case, it's definitely adding weight to the market not supporting the higher price Penfolds is trying to get...

Polymer wrote:I don't often see wine released per bottle at 40% off as a new release...selling at retail stores...To be honest, I haven't seen it that low nor am I really that interested to try to look but if that is the case, it's definitely adding weight to the market not supporting the higher price Penfolds is trying to get...

totally agree.... i think foster's marketing department is either smoking some weird grass or playing final fantasy or both... if a new release can have 40% price difference, those people making up the RRP has got it really wrong...... also if that's the case that you can get a RRP $70 for $40, that doesn't give buyers confidence at all

I have been a long-time fan of the Bin 28, though less so as in recent years as the QPR has slipped somewhat and I have tried other, newer, smaller wineries. Definitely a sentimental attachment though, so with this thread in mind I went to the local tasting, thought it promising on that cursory viewing, and bought a bottle to take home.

2007 Penfolds Kalimna Bin 28 South Australia Shiraz. 14.5%. SC. $20
Good colour. Nose seems a little tight, but smells the goods with plums and raspberry and a touch of milk choc/vanilla. The flavours on the palate match the nose and there is good fruit and some nice, slightly green tannin. I think this has the balance to age. Hint of raspberry tang to the acid. Good length for a three-year-old. After an hour tasting it (also with food) I feel this could be a good Bin 28. My only worry is the lack of any truly spicy character, but I think it might be lurking, still wound, in the background. Very, Very Good +

Went back and got 6 today and intend to leave for 3-4 years before reassessing.

BTW I thought the Bin 128 Coonawarra Shiraz was nice, but I would be pressed to pick it from the Wynns which is half the price. The Bin 389 was very, very good and at $40 almost on the money, but I am sticking to a budget this year........so far.........

Cheers

Michael

Penfolds is certainly popular here in California - favorite bottle shop is STILL selling 2003s and 2004s! Mainly Bins 28 and 128. Didn't get time to ask, but knowing these guys I'd bet they see the current prices as simply no value at all.

Mike

Wif and I basically cut our drinking teeth on Bin 389 in the late 60s, early 70s. Other favs were Vintage Veuve, Taylor's VP and (if anyone remembers) Lindemans Nyrang Hermitage. I could buy Bin 389 at the Woden Plaza Woolies bottle shop below $3 per bottle, Grandfather port at under $10 and the occasional Grange at less than $10. Years later, David Farmer even had a pallet of Grange in front of the Manuka store at $9.99 a bottle. We have tried over the years to maintain a Bin 389 line for nostalgia's sake as much as anything else but somewhere along the line price points eventually trump nostalgia. Still love a good Bin 389 but every bottle I buy has to earn its keep, whether it's a $5 quaffer, an FG Shiraz or a Grange. This Bin 389 release is competing against so many other good to great wines and I'll make my decision whether to buy after I've tried it.

Penfolds used to be a religion for me, I also started buying 389 and 28 in the late 60's. Penfolds was a regular buy and used to be a significant chunk of my cellar. But I've lost the faith or they've lost me. I'm down to 63 bottles now (out of 3,000) and much of that is St Henri, 707, RWT and a few Grange, not much 389 and 28 left.
Whether the wines are good or bad, I don't even care, I've moved on to other things, mostly small producers and don't even miss Penfolds any more.

It's not just Penfolds either, there are lots of others large and small whose quality has varied as prices go up, whose prices have out-paced my buying "sweet spot" and I don't think their wines are worth the price to me. My "sweet-spot" has increased over the years, but has too often been out-paced. The average price I paid for a bottle in 1991 was just over $15 and is a bit over $40 now and I'll happily buy wines at $50 and sometimes more if I really, really like them. So the Pennies are still in my buying range, but I really just can't be bothered going to a tasting or buying some for my tasting group(s) to try (none of them have bought much Penfolds recently either), there is just too much very good wine from small producers to fill the gap.

Peter Schlesinger wrote:Wif and I basically cut our drinking teeth on Bin 389 in the late 60s, early 70s. Other favs were Vintage Veuve, Taylor's VP and (if anyone remembers) Lindemans Nyrang Hermitage. I could buy Bin 389 at the Woden Plaza Woolies bottle shop below $3 per bottle, Grandfather port at under $10 and the occasional Grange at less than $10. Years later, David Farmer even had a pallet of Grange in front of the Manuka store at $9.99 a bottle. We have tried over the years to maintain a Bin 389 line for nostalgia's sake as much as anything else but somewhere along the line price points eventually trump nostalgia. Still love a good Bin 389 but every bottle I buy has to earn its keep, whether it's a $5 quaffer, an FG Shiraz or a Grange. This Bin 389 release is competing against so many other good to great wines and I'll make my decision whether to buy after I've tried it.

Again though the inflation on 389 isn't that bad. Using a rather nifty RBA calculator I worked out that something that cost $3 in 1970 should, with only inflation as a factor, cost $28.31 in 2009. So $40 for 389 today isn't really that horrific a mark-up, especially when you consider how much bigger and more popular the Aussie wine market is nowadays. It's Grange that's the real shocker - $10 in 1970 is still less than $100 now.

Craig(NZ) wrote:In my honest opinion, it is getting to the stage where you could almost randomly pick any $50 wine off the shelf and it would be a better wine than 407. It is not a classy wine. it is a meat and two vege braun no brain unshaven brute.
The early nineties wines were very good. I think the only vintage I never tried was 1990. 1991 was good. The 1994 has cellared well and I really like it, I think I have one or two left. The 1995 was a weedy thin disgrace, anyone that bought a 1996 diverted cash from the 96 389 so needs to be mocked. wines may not particularly enjoy what I like either............

Oh dear. I've got 4 of these left. Mock away. My one and only purchase of a 407.
And only 3 of the 389, which means its disappearing at a slightly quicker pace.

cheers jafa

Michael McNally wrote:I have been a long-time fan of the Bin 28, though less so as in recent years as the QPR has slipped somewhat and I have tried other, newer, smaller wineries. Definitely a sentimental attachment though, so with this thread in mind I went to the local tasting, thought it promising on that cursory viewing, and bought a bottle to take home.

2007 Penfolds Kalimna Bin 28 South Australia Shiraz. 14.5%. SC. $20
Good colour. Nose seems a little tight, but smells the goods with plums and raspberry and a touch of milk choc/vanilla. The flavours on the palate match the nose and there is good fruit and some nice, slightly green tannin. I think this has the balance to age. Hint of raspberry tang to the acid. Good length for a three-year-old. After an hour tasting it (also with food) I feel this could be a good Bin 28. My only worry is the lack of any truly spicy character, but I think it might be lurking, still wound, in the background. Very, Very Good +

Went back and got 6 today and intend to leave for 3-4 years before reassessing.

BTW I thought the Bin 128 Coonawarra Shiraz was nice, but I would be pressed to pick it from the Wynns which is half the price. The Bin 389 was very, very good and at $40 almost on the money, but I am sticking to a budget this year........so far.........

Cheers

Michael

Hallelujah, amongst a thread of 20 replies or thereabouts in a thread entitled "Penfolds Bin release", at last I find a tasting note!

Not a big Penfolds Bin drinker, and I agree the prices are far too high, but this thread really isn't very informative.

Michael McNally wrote:I have been a long-time fan of the Bin 28, though less so as in recent years as the QPR has slipped somewhat and I have tried other, newer, smaller wineries. Definitely a sentimental attachment though, so with this thread in mind I went to the local tasting, thought it promising on that cursory viewing, and bought a bottle to take home.

2007 Penfolds Kalimna Bin 28 South Australia Shiraz. 14.5%. SC. $20
Good colour. Nose seems a little tight, but smells the goods with plums and raspberry and a touch of milk choc/vanilla. The flavours on the palate match the nose and there is good fruit and some nice, slightly green tannin. I think this has the balance to age. Hint of raspberry tang to the acid. Good length for a three-year-old. After an hour tasting it (also with food) I feel this could be a good Bin 28. My only worry is the lack of any truly spicy character, but I think it might be lurking, still wound, in the background. Very, Very Good +

Went back and got 6 today and intend to leave for 3-4 years before reassessing.

BTW I thought the Bin 128 Coonawarra Shiraz was nice, but I would be pressed to pick it from the Wynns which is half the price. The Bin 389 was very, very good and at $40 almost on the money, but I am sticking to a budget this year........so far.........

Cheers

Michael

Have now tasted the Bin 28 (bought 6 bottles in order to secure the rather extraordinary Vintec wine fridge deal which Penfolds are offering; $150 for a 40 bottle fridge which retails for $500 or so - a sure sign they think their wine is overpriced).

Nose definitely smells "the goods". I think the spice is lurking, it is there on the nose. I would describe the nose as violet, cherry, cassis, a hint of chocolate.
An attractive, chewy quality in the mouth, the product of quite assertive tannins, with bitter chocolate and plum/violet notes. Long but slightly thin and (I agree) green finish.

It's not a bad wine, particular given that my early impressions of the 2007 vintage in most of South Australia is not particularly positive.

Unlike you, Michael, I would say that the nose promises a bit more than the wine delivers.

It's a little hot, showing its alcohol, which is 14.5 per cent (and feels higher). But it is quite a hot night in Sydney, and this probably accentuates this quality.

Was given a 2004 Bin 389 last week.

Was expecting a "chateau le plonk", so was very pleasantly surprised.

Like others, I used to hang out for the latest Bin releases year in year out. Now it is a little "ho hum, ho hum".

Perhaps it is time to rediscover them?.....

Monghead.

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