The Auswine Forum

redstuff wrote: I have smelled pure TCA in crystalline form. TCA does indeed have an odour, the same odour of cork tainted wine. Irrespective of how I perceived the chemical it still smells like a wet dog.

You didn't smell pure TCA.

You might've smelled wet dog..but that wasn't TCA itself....

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

Polymer wrote:I've cut a piece of cork from a newish bottle and put it in a glass with water and used another glass of water as a control. The one w/ cork is already getting some color to it...I'm going to leave it for awhile longer...Not great control of variables on this..and I don't have enough water for this to last for too long before it evaporates..but the water is not the same color as the control and that's just a number of hours...

By all means, drink or taste cork or liner soaked water. I'll continue to drink my cellared "cork-soaked" wine.

I don't plan on it...Already showing that cork is adding something to the water...which may or may not be beneficial...as I said before...what we taste in aged wine that was like or are used to can very well be what cork adds to the wine...

I'm sure you'll continue to drink your corked soaked wine....

Already showing that cork is adding something to the water

"Cork, like oak, has over 40 phenolic compounds that may or may not be released into the wine"

Dr M Cabral

Amorim


Again, from the latest issue of decanter.I know we all knew this but the article further states of expanded research into this area.

Polymer wrote:

redstuff wrote: I have smelled pure TCA in crystalline form. TCA does indeed have an odour, the same odour of cork tainted wine. Irrespective of how I perceived the chemical it still smells like a wet dog.

You didn't smell pure TCA.

You might've smelled wet dog..but that wasn't TCA itself....

Was there a wet dog in the laboratory?

No there wasn't a wet dog , our nose detects that smell when TCA is present. As per the 2013 study in Japan, they found TCA doesn't have a 'smell' as per the traditional definition, as they could not find any olfactory receptors that bind to the TCA molecule (albeit in newts so yes we can never be totally 100% on this but it seems a sound theory). Instead we somehow smell what we think of as TCA in the presence of the molecule due to various receptors shutting down. And they don't know why it smells like it does.... it's a mystery so I guess the door is open to debate. Hopefully more research is done but I imagine it's hard to find out and not exactly a priority for funding.

So TCA doesn't in itself smell, but it seems like TBA does smell. Great! Maybe we get both sometimes, maybe we only get one or the other, the net result is similar.

Yes it is pedantic, but it's another interesting titbit of wine nerd info. If someone corrects me if I say a wine smells of TCA I may be . But I may have to correct myself now! We could simply say 'the wine has too much TCA', or 'it's TCA affected' without upsetting the pedants.

[url]http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013 ... 850029.htm[/url]


On a different note, for a direct comparison of the same young wine under different closures, I'm not at all surprised that most people pick the cork version over a screwcap version as the cork will typically be letting in more air, thereby accelerating the aging process and in the early stages of aging this is likely more noticeable as well, i.e a 4 year old red will often be preferred over a 2 year old. I did it myself with the Lakes Folly wine that Polymer mentioned above. But people who keep banging on about this point are missing the main point that I keep banging on about! Corks main fault is inconsistency, the well aged case of wine lottery yielding a mix of great, good, OK and bad bottles should not happen.

Anyway I stick to my hope that winemakers consider using a SC with higher ingress which could well be a saviour for wine aging in the short/medium term without the inconsistency and TCA issues of cork or the slower aging rate of screwcap.


And on a slightly different note again...just a random posit.....

from the DIAM website,

Among the many advantages of Diam closures (absence of cork taste* and organoleptic deviations*, controlled permeability, homogeneity. . .)

*Releasable TCA (≤ the limit of quantification of 0.3 ng/l)

Are they equating 'cork taste' with TCA? Could it be that the 'corky smell' in normal corks is what we perceive via very very low levels of TCA?? (or TBA)

TiggerK wrote:No there wasn't a wet dog , our nose detects that smell when TCA is present.

You were there with redstuff? How many from the forum were there in the laboratory?

Polymer wrote:I'm sure you'll continue to drink your corked soaked wine....

Glad you have a sense of humour. Hopefully my cork soaked wines aren't too corked!

Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

TiggerK wrote:No there wasn't a wet dog , our nose detects that smell when TCA is present.

You were there with redstuff? How many from the forum were there in the laboratory?

Is that supposed to have a smiley face at the end Mahmoud, or are you saying I wasn't there so shouldn't be able to comment?

If the latter, not sure what you're trying to say?

If the former, there was certainly a lot of discussion on bark.

Of course you can comment Tigger, as can anybody else on this forum. Just that I commented on redstuff's post and then you replied. So of course I assumed you were there and wondered who else and how many. Where was this and what were the circumstances. Did you also detect the wet dog or was it just the barking?

JamieBahrain wrote:

Ian S wrote: Do you feel wine retailers have the same obligations and would you have returned bottle 15-20 years after purchase expecting similar treatment?

When I travel to Piedmont I always carry back my corked wine and get replacements

Perhaps not an option available to every consumer...

sjw_11 wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:
- cork outperforms seemingly backward, strangled wines under SC. that's my issue the blind freddy approach to sc by some wineries may be a huge issue .

- Time may not heal winemaking or bottling errors under screw cap. The lag in evolution between fruit and structure is plain odd.

Some very interesting discussion as always on this topic. A few thoughts of my own, in particular response to these two comments by Jamie.

In terms of screw cap leaving wines backwards, I would have thought this unsurprising and reflective of a lower level of oxygen ingress is allowing wines to stay fresher and more closed longer in bottles under screw cap. To me, this sounds like ideal packaging to allow long-term storage of wine.

I am not convinced that wine under screw cap will show NO development, even over say twenty years. My experience of screw cap wines of 5-10yrs indicates distinctive development just with far less evidence of detractive oxidation/tertiary characters developing and a greater level of "freshness" (consistent with many other comments here, and a descriptor I would rarely see as a negative).

For shorter-term cellaring, I imagine the downside of this- a more "closed" wine on first opening- could be substantially ameliorated by a more robust decant than might be applied to a similar wine under cork (as Gary's French experiment suggests).

In terms of the argument that this means a wine that suffered initially from reduction will always do so, or Jamie's comment that under screw cap "time may not heal winemaking or bottling errors"... Umm, why are you wanting to buy faulty wine in the first place?

In this example, all the screw cap is doing is allowing you to see the faults in the wine which previously were masked by or falsely attributed to the bark stopper. In this sense, as others have said, the screw cap is allowing the wine to more accurately and consistently express the intent of its maker and its source of origin, rather than the vagaries of packaging and storage.

I have not changed my view from 2016. Look forward to this debate re-emerging on its usual 2-yr cycle in 2020.

JamieBahrain wrote:

Already showing that cork is adding something to the water

"Cork, like oak, has over 40 phenolic compounds that may or may not be released into the wine"

Again, from the latest issue of decanter.I know we all knew this but the article further states of expanded research into this area.

I believe this is probably the case..it is probably a flavor we're expecting to see in older wines...

Would be interesting to see what types of wines it makes the most difference in...

But the best old wines for mine show a fruit purity that wouldn't suggest obvious cork influence. Truffles, underbrush, mushroom like notes in older wines I could be sold on being the cork.

Anyways, I look forward to further research.

Jamie,

Every screwcap vs. cork comparison I've been in with the same wine/vintage, I don't think cork showed better fruit purity in any of them...

Just by what you quoted from Amorin, and just from a simple cork in water test, cork is adding something to the wine..

I don't understand the dreary fruit comment and pretty much goes against everything we see in screwcap. It is hard to understand how you can call it dreary and yet fresher. It goes against what we see in say, Riesling as well...

I don't doubt that without proper oxygen ingress, red wines might not evolve quite the way we want or are used to...or that cork isn't something that is actually adding to the wine as it ages...and I can see most of the points you're talking about...but I just see contradiction in your statement. Or maybe your grabbing from experiences that shouldn't be included together...If they are actually apples to apples (except cork vs. screwcap) can you provide some examples?

Polymer wrote:Jamie,

Every screwcap vs. cork comparison I've been in with the same wine/vintage, I don't think cork showed better fruit purity in any of them...

Just by what you quoted from Amorin, and just from a simple cork in water test, cork is adding something to the wine..

I don't understand the dreary fruit comment and pretty much goes against everything we see in screwcap. It is hard to understand how you can call it dreary and yet fresher. It goes against what we see in say, Riesling as well...

I don't doubt that without proper oxygen ingress, red wines might not evolve quite the way we want or are used to...or that cork isn't something that is actually adding to the wine as it ages...and I can see most of the points you're talking about...but I just see contradiction in your statement. Or maybe your grabbing from experiences that shouldn't be included together...If they are actually apples to apples (except cork vs. screwcap) can you provide some examples?

My reference was to old wines. 70'sand earlier. So I don't get how a fruit pure nebbiolo say, 30 + years old is showing the imparting of cork flavors- which I'm guessing is nuances like truffle, undergrowth, leather/earth. I don't think its understood yet. I don't know, perhaps, like oak, influences fade in time.

"Dreary" is the fruit of profile of simple and berry driven wines when more was expected and perhaps experienced previously in a style - some cases its reduction.

Last night I had a Torzi Matthew 1904 Grenache 2012 Grenache Mataro. Screw cap. I thought it a style better suited to cork as the development wasn't where I'd hoped it would be. It was not bad, lovely structure but a little dreary in the fruit profile.

Hmmm- screw cap consistency? Or just missing something?


94pts GW

89 Points- our own TiggerK of CT
Too tight and young, bit of reduction. Will def rate higher with 5-10 years more age, should be worth the wait.


5/13/2017 - JASJ WROTE: 87 Points
Sweet and jammy.

JamieBahrain wrote: My reference was to old wines. 70'sand earlier. So I don't get how a fruit pure nebbiolo say, 30 + years old is showing the imparting of cork flavors- which I'm guessing is nuances like truffle, undergrowth, leather/earth. I don't think its understood yet. I don't know, perhaps, like oak, influences fade in time.

Well that's not even comparing common wines...But I do agree, we don't fully understand it yet...It could have to do w/ the tannins or any number of other things...I do know that even under cork for a short while, it adds some woodiness to the wine vs. screwcap...which to me takes it away from fruit purity...but all of that could explain why Riesling seems to thrive under SC...while less so under cork and old Rieslings will sometimes how a bit of cork flavor to them...

JamieBahrain wrote: "Dreary" is the fruit of profile of simple and berry driven wines when more was expected and perhaps experienced previously in a style - some cases its reduction.

So by dreary you mean simple or boring..sure...although you could easily just say that about the wine from the start..

JamieBahrain wrote: Last night I had a Torzi Matthew 1904 Grenache 2012 Grenache Mataro. Screw cap. I thought it a style better suited to cork as the development wasn't where I'd hoped it would be. It was not bad, lovely structure but a little dreary in the fruit profile.

Hmmm- screw cap consistency? Or just missing something?
94pts GW

89 Points- our own TiggerK of CT
Too tight and young, bit of reduction. Will def rate higher with 5-10 years more age, should be worth the wait.

5/13/2017 - JASJ WROTE: 87 Points
Sweet and jammy.

I don't know Jamie..are you expecting three people to have the same assessment about the same wine?

I don't think you can draw any conclusions from this...and shouldn't....It would be better to draw a conclusion (not perfect but better than the one you're drawing now) if we got Tim's assessment of the same wine now vs. what he can remember from back then...

I have to say, from my point of view, when the discussion about cork versus screwcap descends into arcane suppositions that are lobbed back and forth, there comes a point where I begin to wonder whether I have entered the matrix and am drinking and analysing molecules and assessing synaptic resonses instead of luxuriating in the pleasuires of wine. Gentlemen, we're losing sight of why we drink and cellar wine. Science be damned. When it comes to art, beauty and wine, I prefer to think that there is no science to taste, pleasure, and appreciation. Give me instead Omar Khayyam's quatrain:

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread—and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness—
Oh, Wilderness were Paradise now!

Some of what has been said about corks sounds counterintuitive to me. I know that Polymer has observed that water has been discoloured by a cork he has placed in a glass, however plenty of white wines that I have cellared, with years under cork, have appeared pristine. I have not observed white wine being discoloured by cork. There has also been some discussion that corks might add some "cork flavour" or nuances of "truffle, undergrowth, leather/earth". All I can say is that none of my old German rieslings (not to mention some younger Aussie rieslings), dating back to the 70s and 80s, smell or taste of cork, leather, or undergrowth.

As for screwcaps, I have no problem with them, but have no experience with older examples. I am content to trust reputable winemakers in their decision about how to seal their wines. I've had numerous cork sealed wines where the fruit profile is dreary so I'm not sure that screwcaps can necessariy be faulted for that.

Muslims will tell you that the Quran has answers to everything. I'm not sure that is true partly because most people prefer to take things literally instead of thinking. Regarding wine, a surah in the Quran tells believers what they can expect in heaven:

Surah 83:22 to 25

22 - Verily, the pious and righteous will be in Paradise.
23 - On thrones looking at all things.
24 - You will recognize in their faces the brightness of delight.
25 - They wil be given to drink of pure sealed wine.

It seems that as far back as the 7th century the purity of wine was of some concern. Unfortunatly nothing to intimate what kind of seal is used in heaven. Damn, still no answer to cork versus screwcap!

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

PS: I used Fitzgerald's translation of Omar Khayyam because it is the most famous. Please, no cork vs screwcap type discussion of which translation might be more accurate. For the Quanic translation I used an English translation that I picked up from the Saudi embassy in Tunisia. It was very handy because it had an index at the back. I needed one because I befriended a couple of locals who knew the Quran by heart and they would quote passges to me when discussing things. They were lovely fellows and very much rational. When they found out that my partner and I weren't planning to have children they started to debate whether the the Quran states that marriage and sex is for procreation. It turns out that it doesn't. One of them (the one who argued that the Quran does not proscribe marriage without procreation) ended up in my home town. It had been ten years since we met and I bumped into him at the Police parking lot. The car had been stolen and recovered and I was there to pick it up. Small world.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: Some of what has been said about corks sounds counterintuitive to me. I know that Polymer has observed that water has been discoloured by a cork he has placed in a glass, however plenty of white wines that I have cellared, with years under cork, have appeared pristine. I have not observed white wine being discoloured by cork. There has also been some discussion that corks might add some "cork flavour" or nuances of "truffle, undergrowth, leather/earth". All I can say is that none of my old German rieslings (not to mention some younger Aussie rieslings), dating back to the 70s and 80s, smell or taste of cork, leather, or undergrowth.

What color did I say the water was turning? Yellow...what color is white wine....yellow...So how are you observing whether your white wines have some discoloration? What are you using as a reference/baseline?

Older German rieslings can definitely have a slight woodiness(slightly musty sometimes) to them...but it doesn't stick out as obvious..it is easier to detect when side by side with an Aussie under screwcap...and I'm not saying I've seen it in all of them either but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I have to say, from my point of view, when the discussion about cork versus screwcap descends into arcane suppositions that
Surah 83:22 to 25

22 - Verily, the pious and righteous will be in Paradise.
23 - On thrones looking at all things.
24 - You will recognize in their faces the brightness of delight.
25 - They wil be given to drink of pure sealed wine.

It seems that as far back as the 7th century the purity of wine was of some concern. Unfortunatly nothing to intimate what kind of seal is used in heaven. Damn, still no answer to cork versus screwcap!

I guess it doesn't matter which seal they have because on the next line the wine is going to be musk flavoured:

26 The seal thereof will be Musk:

redstuff wrote:I have smelled pure TCA in crystalline form. TCA does indeed have an odour, the same odour of cork tainted wine. Irrespective of how I perceived the chemical it still smells like a wet dog.

Do you get much of a rush when you snorted it?

Cheers

Michael

Michael McNally wrote:

redstuff wrote:I have smelled pure TCA in crystalline form. TCA does indeed have an odour, the same odour of cork tainted wine. Irrespective of how I perceived the chemical it still smells like a wet dog.

Do you get much of a rush when you snorted it?

Cheers

Michael

I think I'm really sensitive to TCA now because of it. After opening the bottle for a few seconds the whole lab stank for days. Another compound to avoid is 4-ethylphenol which is one of the 'horsey band-aid' taint compounds associated with Brettanomyces.

Not to join the screwcap vs cork debate. My question is how to store bottles for long term cellaring, i.e. 7+ years. Lying down on the side like corked bottles or standing upright?

FredericoWines wrote:Not to join the screwcap vs cork debate. My question is how to store bottles for long term cellaring, i.e. 7+ years. Lying down on the side like corked bottles or standing upright?

originally wines were laid down to keep the cork soaked/wet.
with screw caps it doesn't matter.

I wonder whether the difference in surface area between laying and standing has any impact on the rate of development?
[/pointless pondering]

Hi Redav:
I discussed the surface area of contact in last post, ageing your own wine. I also discussed the virtue of storing riesling upside down due to the lack of punt for all riesling bottles. Last week, just to test my theory, I opened an '09 Alkoomi Black Label Riesling. The wine was "rescued" in 2016 (stored vertically in the store) with an equivalent ageing time (AT) of 4, stored at home horizontally (equivalent AT of 1) and stored upside down since last year (equivalent AT of 3). So the wine had an AT of 8 meaning that it was approaching the plateau of greatness ( I would love an AT of at least 10). The colour was gold and the was full of lemon, lemon flower and notes of petroleum. The palate was splendidly full of lemon, apple and there is some taste of minerals. The finish was long and, surprise, had touches of lime rinds. The result was most pleasant as compared with with a '10 Mount Crawford (Eden Valley) Riesling stored vertically almost all the time, giving an AT of around 4.67(too young). This riesling only exhibited a light gold colour and no notes of petroleum. All the calculations for AT were done with calculations of surface area of contact. More report on accelerating ageing for red wine to come.
Cheers... Dac.

redstuff wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote:I have to say, from my point of view, when the discussion about cork versus screwcap descends into arcane suppositions that
Surah 83:22 to 25

22 - Verily, the pious and righteous will be in Paradise.
23 - On thrones looking at all things.
24 - You will recognize in their faces the brightness of delight.
25 - They wil be given to drink of pure sealed wine.

It seems that as far back as the 7th century the purity of wine was of some concern. Unfortunatly nothing to intimate what kind of seal is used in heaven. Damn, still no answer to cork versus screwcap!

I guess it doesn't matter which seal they have because on the next line the wine is going to be musk flavoured:

26 The seal thereof will be Musk:

Well done on adding the next line Redstuff. My translation reads:

26 - "The last thereof (that wine) will be the smell of Musk, and for this let (all) those who strive who want to strive (i.e. hasten earnestly to the obedience of Allah)."

I left it out because I thought it wasn't relevant to the point I was making but on reflection the smell of musk might be a reference to cork taint. Oh, oh, can this be interpreted to mean that wines in heaven are sealed with cork?

With tongue planted firmly in cheek .................... Mahmoud.

Redav wrote:I wonder whether the difference in surface area between laying and standing has any impact on the rate of development?[/pointless pondering]

I'd say no difference because the air within is constant.

So by dreary you mean simple or boring..sure...although you could easily just say that about the wine from the start..

Nope. Drinking wines of the world every night of the week, going back to Australia and facing, let's say medium quality red wine in sc, is rather dreary due a primary fruit development lag. I'm sure when I retire back home I'll be better palate calibrated.

JamieBahrain wrote:

So by dreary you mean simple or boring..sure...although you could easily just say that about the wine from the start..

Nope. Drinking wines of the world every night of the week, going back to Australia and facing, let's say medium quality red wine in sc, is rather dreary due a primary fruit development lag. I'm sure when I retire back home I'll be better palate calibrated.

Maybe you need to lay off the big aussies then...

I find Aussie Shiraz "dreary" compared with say Italian Nebbiolo. I don't blame the dreariness on them being sealed with screwcap. It's just the grapes/style/terroir/etc. are different. To me, Aussie Shiraz is just less stimulating to my palate than other options. Perhaps the "primary fruit development lag" Jamie is talking about is somewhat related to the grapes/style/terroir/etc. and not just the way the bottle is sealed?