The Auswine Forum

Polymer wrote: I'm convinced one of the aged characteristics people enjoy in wine is actually CORK flavor...or some interaction of cork with other parts of a wine...More and more I'm not convinced it is just an air ingress thing.

I'm more convinced its oxidation.

What are the cork flavors? Truffle? Undergrowth? Mushroom?

The greatest old wines I've enjoyed have pretty dominates fruit notes

JamieBahrain wrote:

Polymer wrote: I'm convinced one of the aged characteristics people enjoy in wine is actually CORK flavor...or some interaction of cork with other parts of a wine...More and more I'm not convinced it is just an air ingress thing.

I'm more convinced its oxidation.

What are the cork flavors? Truffle? Undergrowth? Mushroom?

The greatest old wines I've enjoyed have pretty dominates fruit notes

I don't know exactly...slight musty flavors? Which most people associate with age...I'd even argue the smell of cork is what you get when there is TCA...and TCA is blocking the other odors but allowing the cork one through as TCA itself does not have an odor. So those smells/flavors we get on a wine that has TCA is actually in the wine itself...

Cork DOES impart something..it isn't inert...

We've also seen things like at Lakes Folly where they had just bottled 2014 under both cork and screw cap and we tried both...and it was noticeably different and easy to pick which was cork and which was screwcap...and this was not in bottle with enough time to have any significant difference in oxygen ingress so that is definitely not the case.

If you're arguing oxidation then you're also saying that controlled ingress via SC will garner the same result as cork..and that could be the case...just not fully convinced any longer that this is indeed the case...

Also, are you arguing that TCA is one of Stelvin's problems too? Come on Jaime...seriously...How many "corked" bottles have you had with SC? It isn't impossible that something there isn't contaminated..or that the wine wasn't already contaminated..but that's such a stretch you're losing all sorts of credibility if you're suggesting that...

It makes me cross you suggest I'm arguing that point. I stated a recent quote from Decanter. I have a 4000 bottle cellar. Potentially 400 are rat shit due cork. Doesn't mean I walk off the that screw cap cliff like sheep.

I see it all the time btw. Every week drinking vintage wines with my wine group. Old wines with excessive oxidization being favourites. I agree I reckon these guys enjoy oxidation/faults/cork/ failed cork or whatever.

Polymer wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:

Polymer wrote:I'm convinced one of the aged characteristics people enjoy in wine is actually CORK flavor...or some interaction of cork with other parts of a wine...More and more I'm not convinced it is just an air ingress thing.

I'm more convinced its oxidation. What are the cork flavors? Truffle? Undergrowth? Mushroom? The greatest old wines I've enjoyed have pretty dominates fruit notes

I don't know exactly...slight musty flavors? Which most people associate with age...I'd even argue the smell of cork is what you get when there is TCA...and TCA is blocking the other odors but allowing the cork one through as TCA itself does not have an odor. So those smells/flavors we get on a wine that has TCA is actually in the wine itself...

Cork DOES impart something..it isn't inert...

We've also seen things like at Lakes Folly where they had just bottled 2014 under both cork and screw cap and we tried both...and it was noticeably different and easy to pick which was cork and which was screwcap...and this was not in bottle with enough time to have any significant difference in oxygen ingress so that is definitely not the case.

If you're arguing oxidation then you're also saying that controlled ingress via SC will garner the same result as cork..and that could be the case...just not fully convinced any longer that this is indeed the case...

Also, are you arguing that TCA is one of Stelvin's problems too? Come on Jaime...seriously...How many "corked" bottles have you had with SC? It isn't impossible that something there isn't contaminated..or that the wine wasn't already contaminated..but that's such a stretch you're losing all sorts of credibility if you're suggesting that...

I really have to disagree with the suggestion that a cork imparts musty or dusty flavours. In my experience old wines can open to a musty nose upon opening, particularly older Bordeaux or cabernets (hence the term "dusty cab nose"), but this blows off very quickly. Meanwhile other older bottles open to an ethereal sweet-fruited bouquet.

As to the contention that a cork isn't inert, I would argue, from a non-scientific perspective, that it is for the most part inert. The production of wine cork involves boiling and treating it to make it inert, and the corks that fail are the ones with trhe TCA bacteria. Therefore the good corks are inert while the inert ones are the problem.

As to the suggestion that TCA, a bacterial contamination, "is actually the wine itself" beggars the imagination. I'm not sure what to make of this. If "those smalls/flavours we get on a wine that has TCA is actually in the wine itself" then surely the same wine sealed under a screwcap will also exhibit the same thing. Really? In that case the incidence of TCA in screwcaped wines would be just as high as in cork sealed wines.

I can't really comment about Lake's Folly, my experience with Lake's Folly being very limited. It is very rare here in Canada and I've never been served a bottle. However I have been to cellar door and my experience there was off-putting to say the least. On tasting was a cabernet that was foul, the nose was off and so was the palate. I thought perhaps it might have been opened several days earlier and hence it had become vinegary. I was told otherwise and the person who there (might have been the winemaker, not sure) did pour himself a glass and agreed that there was a problem and quickly opened another bottle. The new pour started out okay but within minutes started to develop the same vinegary/chemical/bacterial notes, something I have not expoerienced before. I whispered this to my partner and said "lets get out of here because I don't really want to have to address this." Not sure what that was about but in my opinion it was some kind of fault in either winemaking or contamination. Now don't get me wrong, I have heard plenty of good things about Lake's Folly and seen fine tasting notes. This is just an anecdote of my only experience with Lake's Folly.

By the way, if memory serves me right, the first time I heard about Lake's Folly was when the owner of one of the first private wine store showed me bottles of wine with what appeared to be hand written labels. He told me about Max Lake and his desire to plant and bottle a cabernet in the Hunter, apparently a first.

Cheers ............... Mahmoud.

Why state a quote from the Decanter if that isn't what you're trying to say? Or at least suggest...

Nor am I suggesting you should just get SC because of that..I didn't say or suggest that even once...

I'm not saying excessive oxidation is not on aspect of cork...I'm saying if what you want is excessive oxidation you can easily make a SC to do that...and if that is the only difference in the development then there is no argument against at least as far as that aspect goes...I'm not saying there isn't an argument against it btw..

Mahmoud Ali wrote: I really have to disagree with the suggestion that a cork imparts musty or dusty flavours. In my experience old wines can open to a musty nose upon opening, particularly older Bordeaux or cabernets (hence the term "dusty cab nose"), but this blows off very quickly. Meanwhile other older bottles open to an ethereal sweet-fruited bouquet.

That's not proof of anything Mahmoud...and I'm not saying it means the wine is musty or dusty..I'm saying it imparts some flavors that when combined with a wine, may provide a familiar "aged" taste that we enjoy....That's what I believe happens..

Mahmoud Ali wrote: As to the contention that a cork isn't inert, I would argue, from a non-scientific perspective, that it is for the most part inert. The production of wine cork involves boiling and treating it to make it inert, and the corks that fail are the ones with trhe TCA bacteria. Therefore the good corks are inert while the inert ones are the problem.

It isn't...Get some new corks...put them in water...see what happens after some time. Taste the water as well...or get two beakers, fill with distilled water..put a cork in one and seal them both...If you can't do this, maybe get a newish cork and cut it in half and put the "clean" half in water...although this is probably already contaminated...boil them for awhile maybe?

Mahmoud Ali wrote: As to the suggestion that TCA, a bacterial contamination, "is actually the wine itself" beggars the imagination. I'm not sure what to make of this. If "those smalls/flavours we get on a wine that has TCA is actually in the wine itself" then surely the same wine sealed under a screwcap will also exhibit the same thing. Really? In that case the incidence of TCA in screwcaped wines would be just as high as in cork sealed wines.

That's not what I'm saying.... I'm saying TCA itself is not an odor or flavor, which is probably why you've misread what I wrote because most people think TCA is the smell itself. TCA BLOCKS your sense of smell/taste. Therefore, what you're left with when you smell a corked wine is just what is NOT BLOCKED from TCA. The last part is my assertion given the fact that TCA has been found to not be the smell it just blocks off what you can smell...So therefore what is left is either in the wine already, or because some of the other smells are partially blocked, you get a particular smell...

Wading into this conversation is like wading into wet cement. FWIW I prefer the consistency of SC but am a little frustrated in the effect on ageing reds - the "clipped" descriptor etc and the slower aging process. But cork faults - TCA etc and and all the other related issues such as premox and bottle variation are a far greater issue. I believe SC technology is getting better with calculated air incursion a good sign. But what of all my SC reds from the early days? I just hope extended air contact after opening will overcome this issue.

Carl

It's fascinating that blocking certain smell receptors results in the distinctive wet cardboard TCA character, and that what I've always said was a TCA smell, is not the smell of TCA, but the smell of a wine affected by TCA. Pedantic perhaps, but very interesting. It seems no-one quite understands why this is, and I'm also curious as to why the effect would get worse with time? Like Polymer suggests, something do do with the leftover smells we can still sense with whatever receptors are not so blocked? Anyway, it's evil, and I am curious to see this article in Decanter that suggests SC is somehow a culprit in TCA contamination. (Suspect the article is funded by the cork industry ).

I would LOVE to hear if any winemakers are actually using the higher ingress rate Screwcaps, to me it seems they may be an ideal solution, other than Polymer's cork flavour element, for which I agree, but also feel it's subtle and possibly random (i.e not all corks will show it?). I certainly don't feel I'll miss it much if cork somehow did ever fall out of favour.

Cheers
Tim

TiggerK wrote:I would LOVE to hear if any winemakers are actually using the higher ingress rate Screwcaps, to me it seems they may be an ideal solution, other than Polymer's cork flavour element, for which I agree, but also feel it's subtle and possibly random (i.e not all corks will show it?)

+1

As per my post in the other thread,

Ozzie W wrote: Stelvin screwcaps currently available (since 2013) in 4 versions with varying OTR. The Stelvin 1O2 has an OTR of less than 0.0005 ppm O2 per day, 3O2 is 0.0005 ppm, 5O2 is 0.005 ppm, and 7O2 is 0.05 ppm. Prior to 2013 Stelvin was only available in 1O2 and 5O2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYoHZSH5oSk
https://www.amcor.com/businesses/amcor-flexi ... vin-inside

Other screwcap manufacturers have similar offerings.

Which OTR are winemakers actually using and why? Perhaps some of the winemakers who frequent this forum can shed some light on this?

Polymer wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote: I really have to disagree with the suggestion that a cork imparts musty or dusty flavours. In my experience old wines can open to a musty nose upon opening, particularly older Bordeaux or cabernets (hence the term "dusty cab nose"), but this blows off very quickly. Meanwhile other older bottles open to an ethereal sweet-fruited bouquet.

That's not proof of anything Mahmoud...and I'm not saying it means the wine is musty or dusty..I'm saying it imparts some flavors that when combined with a wine, may provide a familiar "aged" taste that we enjoy....That's what I believe happens..

I was expressing an opinion based on my experience, not proof. However, if you insist that the cork imparts a flavour that, combined with the wine, produces the aged profile people appreciate and enjoy, then by your own assertion a screwcaped wine can never develop those same aged profiles.

Polymer wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote: As to the contention that a cork isn't inert, I would argue, from a non-scientific perspective, that it is for the most part inert. The production of wine cork involves boiling and treating it to make it inert, and the corks that fail are the ones with trhe TCA bacteria. Therefore the good corks are inert while the inert ones are the problem.

It isn't...Get some new corks...put them in water...see what happens after some time. Taste the water as well...or get two beakers, fill with distilled water..put a cork in one and seal them both...If you can't do this, maybe get a newish cork and cut it in half and put the "clean" half in water...although this is probably already contaminated...boil them for awhile maybe?

Fair enough. So what would happen if I took the lining from a screw cap and put them in water, and maybe boil them?

Polymer wrote:

Mahmoud Ali wrote: As to the suggestion that TCA, a bacterial contamination, "is actually the wine itself" beggars the imagination. I'm not sure what to make of this. If "those smalls/flavours we get on a wine that has TCA is actually in the wine itself" then surely the same wine sealed under a screwcap will also exhibit the same thing. Really? In that case the incidence of TCA in screwcaped wines would be just as high as in cork sealed wines.

That's not what I'm saying.... I'm saying TCA itself is not an odor or flavor, which is probably why you've misread what I wrote because most people think TCA is the smell itself. TCA BLOCKS your sense of smell/taste. Therefore, what you're left with when you smell a corked wine is just what is NOT BLOCKED from TCA. The last part is my assertion given the fact that TCA has been found to not be the smell it just blocks off what you can smell...So therefore what is left is either in the wine already, or because some of the other smells are partially blocked, you get a particular smell...

You are correct, technically TCA is not an odour or a flavour, it is a chemical compound. It is predominantly found in corks as a result of fungi treated by chlorinated chemicals products. Now although TCA is a chemical it does have a particular odour unrelated to the wine. It is typically characterised by the smell of a dank mouldy basement, wet cardboark, or a wet dog. It also attenuates the odours and taste of the wine. If as you assert, that TCA only "blocks off what you can smell", then nobody would be able to sniff a corked wine. A badly corked wine would therefore be odourless. I'm afraid that is not a tenable position. You also posit that the particular smell of the TCA-affected wine comes from the wine. Since these odours are off-putting it implies that these flaws may already exist in wines. Again, this would imply that screwcapped wines may also have these inherent bad smells. Not many winemakers are going to accept that within their wines, underlying the fruit, oak, tannin, and acidity lie a range of mouldy basement and wet dog odours.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: I was expressing an opinion based on my experience, not proof. However, if you insist that the cork imparts a flavour that, combined with the wine, produces the aged profile people appreciate and enjoy, then by your own assertion a screwcaped wine can never develop those same aged profiles.

That's correct...SC would never develop the same aged profiles that we're used to. That's my assertion anyways..
It isn't that the wine doesn't age..it does, just not in the way we're normally used to it.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: Fair enough. So what would happen if I took the lining from a screw cap and put them in water, and maybe boil them?

well there are two sides to the lining, only one of which can have contact with the wine...but it is supposed to be.

Mahmoud Ali wrote: You are correct, technically TCA is not an odour or a flavour, it is a chemical compound. It is predominantly found in corks as a result of fungi treated by chlorinated chemicals products. Now although TCA is a chemical it does have a particular odour unrelated to the wine. It is typically characterised by the smell of a dank mouldy basement, wet cardboark, or a wet dog. It also attenuates the odours and taste of the wine. If as you assert, that TCA only "blocks off what you can smell", then nobody would be able to sniff a corked wine. A badly corked wine would therefore be odourless. I'm afraid that is not a tenable position. You also posit that the particular smell of the TCA-affected wine comes from the wine. Since these odours are off-putting it implies that these flaws may already exist in wines. Again, this would imply that screwcapped wines may also have these inherent bad smells. Not many winemakers are going to accept that within their wines, underlying the fruit, oak, tannin, and acidity lie a range of mouldy basement and wet dog odours.

Nope..this is wrong..look up the latest research on TCA...it doesn't actually have a particular odor..that's what people have believed for a long time but is not right..
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/09/cork ... -your-nose
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3791788/

It doesn't block your entire sense of smell..but it blocks certain receptors...Like for me, sometimes I actually do get NOTHING from a wine as in completely blocked off, completely stripped of anything...
So whatever left is a mishmash of whatever is leftover that we can smell...So that wet cardboard smell is either something left over from what already exists in the wine but we can't smell/taste it normally or whatever isn't blocked is providing a distorted smell of the wine and we smell it. This might be actually cork smell that is leftover or something that has to do with wood that is leftover that we smell..I don't know. But factually, TCA does not have an odor..

I'm also not saying we can smell these things in the wine without TCA being present..obviously we normally cannot..

I've cut a piece of cork from a newish bottle and put it in a glass with water and used another glass of water as a control. The one w/ cork is already getting some color to it...I'm going to leave it for awhile longer...Not great control of variables on this..and I don't have enough water for this to last for too long before it evaporates..but the water is not the same color as the control and that's just a number of hours...

Polymer wrote:Why state a quote from the Decanter if that isn't what you're trying to say? Or at least suggest...

Why not? It's a snippet of interesting information I wasn't aware of. Just like counter-claims on this forum against Amorin's perfect cork.

I had a 2009 McWiliams Elizabeth Semillon Cellar Release last night. Pristine and a welcome relief from having cases of this stuff and the high levels of taint. That said, I think its development is too slow for what it is being marketed as.

If McWilliams can start a massive cellar release program though, releasing say Elizabeth at the 8 year mark, and for those who are patient another 5 + will bring richer rewards, what a win for the Australia's waning reputation abroad. Unique, amazingly priced and quality, world class wine.

JamieBahrain wrote:

Polymer wrote:Why state a quote from the Decanter if that isn't what you're trying to say? Or at least suggest...

Why not? It's a snippet of interesting information I wasn't aware of. Just like counter-claims on this forum against Amorin's perfect cork.

I haven't seen a whole lot against Amorin's "perfect cork" but have seen some comments in general but those people are actually saying they doubt the claims or how this won't help in terms of premox, etc...

So if you're saying your quote was in line with that, then yes you are suggesting exactly what I said...

I don't know if you corks/comeback/diam is a prediction or state of the current situation...but if anything I see Diam eating into Corks market share...even in Burgundy...

But that said, if alternatives closures has pushed cork makers to make a better cork, I think we're all better off...It is too bad that won't be really obvious for quite awhile longer...

JamieBahrain wrote:I had a 2009 McWiliams Elizabeth Semillon Cellar Release last night. Pristine and a welcome relief from having cases of this stuff and the high levels of taint. That said, I think its development is too slow for what it is being marketed as.

If McWilliams can start a massive cellar release program though, releasing say Elizabeth at the 8 year mark, and for those who are patient another 5 + will bring richer rewards, what a win for the Australia's waning reputation abroad. Unique, amazingly priced and quality, world class wine.

Agree strongly with the high levels of taint, I gave up a couple of years ago on them.
Don't know if I agree with the development being too slow though, they were releasing museum releases with what, 5 - 10 years?
You would hardly expect a quality Hunter sem to be showing any notable development at 5 years, maybe a tad at 10, but just look at something like the Vat 1 1999 in comparison. I've had the odd one in recent years with TCA but every other his still showing baby young and at the same time hidden beauty within. I cant say the same with any Elizabeth I've ever had.
Last year I took a 2004 Belford (under screwcap) blind to our casual First Friday of the month dinner and revealing it as a 2004 was eye opening to most if not everyone at it being 12 years old, including me and I brought it! You could see the goods behind it and where it was going.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Elizabeth is a very good VFM sem but nothing to put away for too long, its just not made for that anymore, IMO. My guess is the fruit is whats leftover from after they bottle the Lovedale and it just does not have the bones behind it.

Current release Rod and Spur (2015)

Already starting to leech up through a defect in the cork, what chance would it have in 5-10 years.

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/Misc/IMG_2101.JPG[/img]

dave vino wrote:Current release Rod and Spur (2015)

Already starting to leech up through a defect in the cork, what chance would it have in 5-10 years.

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/Misc/IMG_2101.JPG[/img]

What I like about Diam
Consistency in composition and density
With the (from my limited observations) development from cork
That said, I have noticed diam also takes up an increased soak from the bottom up much in excess of a ‘perfect cork’

What I find odd is Rockford feels they source high quality corks? Their corks are shockers..really....I mean, they must be comfortable with how they perform and the return rate so I don't see any reason why they'd change but their corks are pretty poor in pretty much every way (quality, specs, etc).

Bobthebuilder wrote:

dave vino wrote:Current release Rod and Spur (2015)

Already starting to leech up through a defect in the cork, what chance would it have in 5-10 years.

[img]http://www.grapemates.org/files/Misc/IMG_2101.JPG[/img]

What I like about Diam
Consistency in composition and density
With the (from my limited observations) development from cork
That said, I have noticed diam also takes up an increased soak from the bottom up much in excess of a ‘perfect cork’

This defect looks like a crease in the cork possibly due to a bottling line corker jaw fault,or trying to fit a cork with a oversize diameter into a cork neck diameter unsuitable. The average AUS bottle AG041 cork neck diam ID is 18.5 mm thus a 24mm diam cork is sufficient. Some choose a 25mm diam cork. Have seen this creasing in a Diam sealed Dry River Syrah. This creasing leads to oxidization and leakage.
Vinocor used to be primary supplier to Rockford until the new sales rep for Amorim, armed with the ND (Nil Detect) cork, came on board and convinced them to switch to Amorim.
ND (Nil Detect) is not a ZD (Zero Defect) product. Nil Detect is basically a "not detected thus not there" philosophy.

I await the enthusiastic feedback.

So the glass with the cork in it definitely has yellow water..very noticeable in fact.

So while cork may be chemically inert as in it doesn't change the chemical makeup of the wine..that doesn't mean it isn't imparting something to the wine. I'm not sure at this point if I actually want to put this in my mouth either...

There is a subtle difference in smell..although at this point it is VERY subtle..and while it might be slightly woody, it could just be confirmation bias...with the wet cork in the glass it definitely has more of a smell..

[quote="rossmckay]

Doesn't solve the problem with those overseas purchases that break your heart, but if you have retailers and wholesalers (Bibendim have done it multiple times too) that respect you as a customer, it's a minor inconveniience.[/quote]

Erm...yeah...about Bibendum...not such great news for them this week...

cuttlefish wrote: Erm...yeah...about Bibendum...not such great news for them this week...

Yes, the perils of being bought and sold like a commodity. Hopefully they get sold off to a safe pair of hands.

On the topic of returning faulty wine, what are your views on how old it is before you don't bother... or alternatively what's the longest period between purchase and return for a refund that you've had? Does the answer differ between retail and winery?

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian

I just returned a John Riddoch 1996.

Wynn's couriered the wine from Mt Macedon ( regional Australia I guess ) tested the wine and acknowledged high TCA and replaced with 2 x JR current vintage.

Personally, I try to always return TCA wines

According the latest Decanter article and I'm just a messenger here.....

Synthetic stoppers have been losing market share. 30 producers is now down to one for the most part.

19 billion wine bottles annually- 12bn cork, 4.7 bn screw cap and the remainder synthetic.

Amorin's perfect cork and research and acknowledgement of the influence of cork's phenolic compounds will be an interesting development. We aren't shy of oak influence in Australia, so identification of subtle cork influence from a "perfect" cork is going to be interesting added spin into the debate !

Polymer wrote:That's correct...SC would never develop the same aged profiles that we're used to. That's my assertion anyways..
It isn't that the wine doesn't age..it does, just not in the way we're normally used to it.

If indeed screwcapped wines will not age in the same way as wines sealed under cork, then perhaps people ought to reconsider cellaring screwcap wines. The best Australian wines I’ve had were cork sealed. Therefore I should be glad that almost all my Aussie wines are cork sealed because I wouldn’t want it any other way. [Edit: in that I prefer my wines to age the way I have known them to age rather than for them to age in a yet unknown way. Intellectually speaking, it's not impossible that screwcap wines might age in a favourable way but to use an old adage, better the devil you know, or a bird in hand .......]

Polymer wrote:Nope..this is wrong..look up the latest research on TCA...it doesn't actually have a particular odor..that's what people have believed for a long time but is not right..
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/09/cork ... -your-nose
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3791788/

It doesn't block your entire sense of smell..but it blocks certain receptors...Like for me, sometimes I actually do get NOTHING from a wine as in completely blocked off, completely stripped of anything...
So whatever left is a mishmash of whatever is leftover that we can smell...So that wet cardboard smell is either something left over from what already exists in the wine but we can't smell/taste it normally or whatever isn't blocked is providing a distorted smell of the wine and we smell it. This might be actually cork smell that is leftover or something that has to do with wood that is leftover that we smell..I don't know. But factually, TCA does not have an odor..

I'm also not saying we can smell these things in the wine without TCA being present..obviously we normally cannot..

Alright, I'll bite. Lets break this down. First of all, it is not only 2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA) that is behind cork taint:

"TCA is the common abbreviation for the chemical compound 2,4,6-trichloroanisole, first identified by a Swiss chemist in 1981, and thought to be the primary cause of cork taint. Other chloroanisole contaminants of wine may include 2,3,4,6-tetrachloroanisole (TeCA) and pentachloroanisole (PCA). Scientists in Bordeaux, France, using gas chromatography and mass spectrometry, have recently isolated another compound, 2,4,6-tribromoanisole (TBA), that similarly ruins wine aromas."
(http://www.winepros.org/wine101/vincyc-tca.htm)

“Another haloanisole, 2,4,6-tribromoanisole (2,4,6-TBA) has recently been identified as a similar contributor to wine taint. 2,4,6-TBA was first identified by Pascal Chatonnet* (see my post script) and collaborators in 2004 in French wines. Like 2,4,6-TCA, 2,4,6-TBA causes a musty, mold taint in wine at very low concentrations, but it has the potential to be an even more serious problem to the U.S. wine industry because its precursor (2,4,6- tribromophenol [2,4,6-TBP]) can be found in so many sources commonly used in wineries.”
(https://www.practicalwinery.com/novdec08/page1.htm)

Lets look at TCA and TBA. As pointed out in the studies you cited, TCA is apparently odourless but interacts and taints wine. TBA also taints wine but is not odourless:

Wikipedia describes the two in this way:

TCA - “The odor of TCA is not directly perceived. Instead, the molecule distorts the perception of smell by suppressing olfactory signal transduction. The effect occurs at very low concentrations (single parts per trillion), so even very minute amounts of TCA can be detected. It causes unpleasant earthy, musty and moldy aromas.”

TBA - “Tribromoanisole has a very low odor detection threshold. It is 0.08-0.3 parts per trillion (ppt) in water and 2-6 ppt in wine (or 3.4-7.9 ng/l) so even very minute amounts can be detected. It causes unpleasant earthy, musty and moldy aromas.”

In short, TCA is odourless but affects our perception of smell, triggering unpleasant earthy, musty, and mouldy aromas. TCB is not odourless and is detected by the perception of pretty much the same odours. This beggars the question, when we detect these unpleasant odours in a tained wine, are we smelling TCB or is TCA causing us to smell pretty much the same thing?

Since the topic of this thread is TCA (even though we are talking about cork taint and all that it encompasses) lets deal with it. Regardless of whether TCA itself is odourless, it produces an effect that causes our olfactory senses to detect something we would not detect in its absence. We are, I suggest, “detecting” TCA by its presence in wine. In much the same way, we perceive many things in wine that are not in fact there, things like cocoa, minerals and herbs, gooseberries and cut grass, even barnyard and manure. Nobody suggests that any of this stuff is in the wine but we do say we detect those aromas and flavours. I think talking about not being able to detect TCA is pedantic to say the least.

Let me use an analogy that also involves another one of our senses: sight. The rays of the sun are pretty much constant but our perception of the colour of the sun changes by dint of the air in the atmosphere. During the day we see the sun as a bright yellow orb but at sunset we see the sun as orange-red. The same colourless atmosphere has changed our perception. We do not see the colour nor density of the air, but we do perceive it by way of it affecting the rays of the sun. Sure we can catgorically say that we cannot see the atmosphere but we detect it in the way it affects the or distorts the rays of the sun at sunset. In much the same way TCA affects our perception, causing us to detect something other than what is there had there been no interference of our olfactory senses.

Polymer wrote:I've cut a piece of cork from a newish bottle and put it in a glass with water and used another glass of water as a control. The one w/ cork is already getting some color to it...I'm going to leave it for awhile longer...Not great control of variables on this..and I don't have enough water for this to last for too long before it evaporates..but the water is not the same color as the control and that's just a number of hours...

By all means, drink or taste cork or liner soaked water. I'll continue to drink my cellared "cork-soaked" wine.

Cheers .................... Mahmoud.

*Pascal Chantonnet. It was quite the surprise to see his name come up in this context. I had never heard of him before but a few years ago I came across the 2005 Chateau L'Archange, Saint Emilion, and when I asked people on a different forum about this wine I got the following response from a knowledgeable formite who lives in Bordeaux:
"Pascal Chatonnet is a customer of mine twice over. Once for the family vineyards (the most well-known are Haut-Chaigneau and La Serge in Lalande-de-Pomerol, and l’Archange in Saint-Emilion) and once for the wine laboratory he owns and manages, Excell. Pascal Chatonnet is also a consulting enologist at several estates around the world, including Vega Sicilia. Furthemore, he is a leading authority on the interaction between wine and oak. We have translated many of his reasearch papers. His family have very deep roots in Saint-Emilon and once owned premier cru classé La Magdelaine (recently absorbed by Belair). L’Archange has just 1.2 hectares of vines. I like the wine very much and have several bottles of the 2009 in my cellar. The wine is 100% Merlot and aged in new barrels."

This is the label with his name prominently featured

Some of my friends from our local wine society toured Tassie and I can't recall the producer but they were given a blind tastings of screw cap and cork wines, over a number of vintages. Pinot noir which ain't Australia's most complex wine.

They all preferred cork. The presenter was mortified. Couldn't accept their conclusion and wasn't happy they felt the screw capped wines were dreary and hadn't fleshed out in comparison.

The story isn't what's the best closure, but a technocratic attitude I'm seeing from Australia.

Thanks Jamie
Plenty of Aussie wineries definitely 'get it' (based on what I've read here), wrt doing the right thing when a customer identifies TCA. Sparky especially showed how even the big corporation could make a positive out of a problem.

Do you feel wine retailers have the same obligations and would you have returned bottle 15-20 years after purchase expecting similar treatment?

I ask, because
a) The wines I have are almost with exception, from abroad. Returning such wines isn't practical
b) I'm not especially loyal to one wine merchant. I look for what I want and buy it from those that have it, typically mail-order (and enough other stuff of interest to fill out a dozen). Again returning wines is more problematic than dropping it off when passing.
c) I love cellaring wine, and it's not unusual for a wine to be 5, 10, 15, 20 years from purchase to being drunk.

In law our relationship is with the retailer, not the winery, but what if that retailer stops trading, changes hands, changes supplier or no longer stocks the wines from that winery. There is also a nominal time limit on liability for retailers, that no-one is too sure if it applies to cork failure.

Personally I'd much rather the relationship be direct with the winery. Their product, their liability for failure. Much simpler and I'm sure I'd be more likely to raise it with them, if only to give them a better view on the full extent of TCA / other failure.

In addition, I'm English, and we aren't great at *complaining, so the above could reasonably be seen as excuses not to do so, rather than reasons why it's not practical.

Regards
Ian

* When being taught how to complain in an Italian class, he first had to explain to us how it was ok to complain, before telling us how to do so in Italian!

Mahmoud Ali wrote:

Polymer wrote:That's correct...SC would never develop the same aged profiles that we're used to. That's my assertion anyways..
It isn't that the wine doesn't age..it does, just not in the way we're normally used to it.

If indeed screwcapped wines will not age in the same way as wines sealed under cork, then perhaps people ought to reconsider cellaring screwcap wines. The best Australian wines I’ve had were cork sealed. Therefore I should be glad that almost all my Aussie wines are cork sealed because I wouldn’t want it any other way.

Polymer wrote:Nope..this is wrong..look up the latest research on TCA...it doesn't actually have a particular odor..that's what people have believed for a long time but is not right..
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/09/cork ... -your-nose
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3791788/

It doesn't block your entire sense of smell..but it blocks certain receptors...Like for me, sometimes I actually do get NOTHING from a wine as in completely blocked off, completely stripped of anything...
So whatever left is a mishmash of whatever is leftover that we can smell...So that wet cardboard smell is either something left over from what already exists in the wine but we can't smell/taste it normally or whatever isn't blocked is providing a distorted smell of the wine and we smell it. This might be actually cork smell that is leftover or something that has to do with wood that is leftover that we smell..I don't know. But factually, TCA does not have an odor..

I'm also not saying we can smell these things in the wine without TCA being present..obviously we normally cannot..

Alright, I'll bite. Lets break this down. First of all, it is not only 2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA) that is behind cork taint:

"TCA is the common abbreviation for the chemical compound 2,4,6-trichloroanisole, first identified by a Swiss chemist in 1981, and thought to be the primary cause of cork taint. Other chloroanisole contaminants of wine may include 2,3,4,6-tetrachloroanisole (TeCA) and pentachloroanisole (PCA). Scientists in Bordeaux, France, using gas chromatography and mass spectrometry, have recently isolated another compound, 2,4,6-tribromoanisole (TBA), that similarly ruins wine aromas."
(http://www.winepros.org/wine101/vincyc-tca.htm)

“Another haloanisole, 2,4,6-tribromoanisole (2,4,6-TBA) has recently been identified as a similar contributor to wine taint. 2,4,6-TBA was first identified by Pascal Chatonnet* (see my post script) and collaborators in 2004 in French wines. Like 2,4,6-TCA, 2,4,6-TBA causes a musty, mold taint in wine at very low concentrations, but it has the potential to be an even more serious problem to the U.S. wine industry because its precursor (2,4,6- tribromophenol [2,4,6-TBP]) can be found in so many sources commonly used in wineries.”
(https://www.practicalwinery.com/novdec08/page1.htm)

Lets look at TCA and TBA. As pointed out in the studies you cited, TCA is apparently odourless but interacts and taints wine. TBA also taints wine but is not odourless:

Wikipedia describes the two in this way:

TCA - “The odor of TCA is not directly perceived. Instead, the molecule distorts the perception of smell by suppressing olfactory signal transduction. The effect occurs at very low concentrations (single parts per trillion), so even very minute amounts of TCA can be detected. It causes unpleasant earthy, musty and moldy aromas.”

TBA - “Tribromoanisole has a very low odor detection threshold. It is 0.08-0.3 parts per trillion (ppt) in water and 2-6 ppt in wine (or 3.4-7.9 ng/l) so even very minute amounts can be detected. It causes unpleasant earthy, musty and moldy aromas.”

In short, TCA is odourless but affects our perception of smell, triggering unpleasant earthy, musty, and mouldy aromas. TCB is not odourless and is detected by the perception of pretty much the same odours. This beggars the question, when we detect these unpleasant odours in a tained wine, are we smelling TCB or is TCA causing us to smell pretty much the same thing?

Since the topic of this thread is TCA (even though we are talking about cork taint and all that it encompasses) lets deal with it. Regardless of whether TCA itself is odourless, it produces an effect that causes our olfactory senses to detect something we would not detect in its absence. We are, I suggest, “detecting” TCA by its presence in wine. In much the same way, we perceive many things in wine that are not in fact there, things like cocoa, minerals and herbs, gooseberries and cut grass, even barnyard and manure. Nobody suggests that any of this stuff is in the wine but we do say we detect those aromas and flavours. I think talking about not being able to detect TCA is pedantic to say the least.

Let me use an analogy that also involves another one of our senses: sight. The rays of the sun are pretty much constant but our perception of the colour of the sun changes by dint of the air in the atmosphere. During the day we see the sun as a bright yellow orb but at sunset we see the sun as orange-red. The same colourless atmosphere has changed our perception. We do not see the colour nor density of the air, but we do perceive it by way of it affecting the rays of the sun. Sure we can catgorically say that we cannot see the atmosphere but we detect it in the way it affects the or distorts the rays of the sun at sunset. In much the same way TCA affects our perception, causing us to detect something other than what is there had there been no interference of our olfactory senses.

Polymer wrote:I've cut a piece of cork from a newish bottle and put it in a glass with water and used another glass of water as a control. The one w/ cork is already getting some color to it...I'm going to leave it for awhile longer...Not great control of variables on this..and I don't have enough water for this to last for too long before it evaporates..but the water is not the same color as the control and that's just a number of hours...

By all means, drink or taste cork or liner soaked water. I'll continue to drink my cellared "cork-soaked" wine.

Cheers .................... Mahmoud.

*Pascal Chantonnet. It was quite the surprise to see his name come up in this context. I had never heard of him before but a few years ago I came across the 2005 Chateau L'Archange, Saint Emilion, and when I asked people on a different forum about this wine I got the following response from a knowledgeable formite who lives in Bordeaux:
"Pascal Chatonnet is a customer of mine twice over. Once for the family vineyards (the most well-known are Haut-Chaigneau and La Serge in Lalande-de-Pomerol, and l’Archange in Saint-Emilion) and once for the wine laboratory he owns and manages, Excell. Pascal Chatonnet is also a consulting enologist at several estates around the world, including Vega Sicilia. Furthemore, he is a leading authority on the interaction between wine and oak. We have translated many of his reasearch papers. His family have very deep roots in Saint-Emilon and once owned premier cru classé La Magdelaine (recently absorbed by Belair). L’Archange has just 1.2 hectares of vines. I like the wine very much and have several bottles of the 2009 in my cellar. The wine is 100% Merlot and aged in new barrels."

This is the lable with his name prominently featured

L'Archange.jpeg

I have smelled pure TCA in crystalline form. TCA does indeed have an odour, the same odour of cork tainted wine. Irrespective of how I perceived the chemical it still smells like a wet dog.

Ian S wrote: Do you feel wine retailers have the same obligations and would you have returned bottle 15-20 years after purchase expecting similar treatment?

Hard to have a rule but I expect retailers to replace corked wine in the first few years. The big guys seem pretty good at it- BBR, F&R etc.

After a few years, it's easier and more pleasant to deal with the winery. When I travel to Piedmont I always carry back my corked wine and get replacements. Kinda odd I guess but as an Aussie it's what I expect. And the Piedmontese are excellent! So the reluctance of Old World drinkers to seek replacement is consumer acceptance ! A number of times, at restaurants in Piedmont last visit corked wines were re-corked by the restaurant who would seek their own refund from the prodcuer.