The Auswine Forum

It's strange, personally I have had three failures with screw caps, however, I'll add that I can't be certain that the wine wasn't tainted before being added to the bottle.

rens wrote:

dave vino wrote:I'm waiting to open my Ampoule of Block 42 in 40 years to see if oxygen is required for aging. These are sealed under glass which needs to be snapped open to get to the wine. Maybe I should try one every 10 years to see how they are progressing? #bythecase #baller

Happy to volunteer my fantastic palate to help out.

I'll have my people contact your people.

BTW I could be up again Friday week (18th) if any interest for a really casual catchup/byo.

dave vino wrote:

rens wrote:

dave vino wrote:I'm waiting to open my Ampoule of Block 42 in 40 years to see if oxygen is required for aging. These are sealed under glass which needs to be snapped open to get to the wine. Maybe I should try one every 10 years to see how they are progressing? #bythecase #baller

Happy to volunteer my fantastic palate to help out.

I'll have my people contact your people.

BTW I could be up again Friday week (18th) if any interest for a really casual catchup/byo.

Unfortunately I have a prior engagement. However a casual ampule of Block 42 down at the local Chinese sounds pretty good.

RobK wrote:It's strange, personally I have had three failures with screw caps, however, I'll add that I can't be certain that the wine wasn't tainted before being added to the bottle.

Hi Rob, would you mind please clarifying what you mean by "failures with screw caps"? Are you saying they were TCA tainted wines, oxidised wines, cooked wines or something else?

bdellabosca, I haven't really got such a well developed palate that I can determine exactly what the fault is with wine however the "failures" as I call them seemed to be oxidised. Something I've never experienced with cork enclosures. I would point out that I have consumed shall we say an undetermined amount of wine with the number of corks far exceeding screw cap wines.

I would also add that my experience of cooked wines is limited to one restaurant in particular and my step father. My step father cleverly kept all his wines in a stinking hot garage and all his wines were undrinkable after only three years (damned shame because much of his plonk was in the $50.00 - $80.00 range). The restaurant I refer to in Coffs Harbour served up a cooked wine and I asked the 16 year old Sommelier where the wines were cellared. The answer "sort of in a sunny spot in the loading dock, why do you ask two dogs"? I don't included the cooked wine as the failure of the enclosure.

RobK wrote:bdellabosca, I haven't really got such a well developed palate that I can determine exactly what the fault is with wine however the "failures" as I call them seemed to be oxidised. Something I've never experienced with cork enclosures. I would point out that I have consumed shall we say an undetermined amount of wine with the number of corks far exceeding screw cap wines.

I would also add that my experience of cooked wines is limited to one restaurant in particular and my step father. My step father cleverly kept all his wines in a stinking hot garage and all his wines were undrinkable after only three years (damned shame because much of his plonk was in the $50.00 - $80.00 range). The restaurant I refer to in Coffs Harbour served up a cooked wine and I asked the 16 year old Sommelier where the wines were cellared. The answer "sort of in a sunny spot in the loading dock, why do you ask two dogs"? I don't included the cooked wine as the failure of the enclosure.

So heat issues aside, I suppose the big question is... Do you blame the screw cap for the failures you experienced? i.e that if the wine was under cork, the issues wouldn't have happened?

Personally, I believe the wine was oxidised. Having drunk both the cork enclosure and screw cap of the same wine, I draw the conclusion that it was the stelvin at fault rather than a bad batch that went unnoticed by the winery. This hasn't changed my purchasing habits since I put it down to bad luck. I love drawing a cork but love the contents more than drawing the cork.

Thanks Rob,
The oxidation may have occurred pre-bottling or could be leaky caps (knocked / in transit or something)? I haven't experienced that but interesting to hear. As far as I am aware, leaky caps are not a common issue with screw caps.
Cheers
Ben

Opened a 2007 Penfolds 407 (screwcap) the other day and thought it did fit the Simple fruit and resolved tannins profile that Jamie is worried about.
I think I have had pretty much every vintage of 407 and I enjoy them when the fruit has turned secondary and the tannins still prominent but melding with the wine. This usually happens at around 15-20 years for me. So this wine is 9 years and the tannin structure is soft already but the fruit very primary. It was actually not a bad wine though as the fruit had a nice lightness to it but really wasn't a 407 cab I'm looking for.
Still, I'm not convinced it's screwcap causing this or winemaking choice. Especially with a year like 07. Still gets me worried about my other SC 407's though. I don't buy them anymore because of the ridiculous prices they are at but I'll be pissed off if the early wines I have are all fully resolved structurally at 20 years and bright fruited.

A very interesting observation Red Smurf. We often think of screwcaps slowing the evolution and development of a red wine but you are the first to introduce (at least to me) the idea that while the fruit profile of the wine may be preserved longer under screwcap, the tannin structure may evolve as it did, thereby altering the way wines used to age under cork.

Mahmoud.

Ummmm....I'm not introducing this. Even though there is a lot of side track on this thread, It's the main point of the thread.

JamieBahrain wrote:My issue and is primary fruit flavors out of kilter with structural evolution. In some wines its like a strangulation; retarded, hard and simple berry fruit with barely whispy tannins.

Yes, you're right. I recall reading that but for some reason focused on the primary fruit aspect and overlooked the rest. Being slow on the draw it was your post that lit the bulb. Sort of like the country rube joke where the young lad realizes a bit too late what the young woman meant.

Now that Jamie has brought to my attention this aspect of potential evolution under screwcap I will be looking to see if this is true of any red wines I have under screwcap however the fact of the matter is that I don't have many. From what I recall, all I have under screwcap are an '06 St Henri, a pair of '06 Paracombe 'Reuben' and most recently the lovely '13 Annie's Lane 'Copper Trail' - not much to work on I'm afraid.

Mahmoud.

PS: I think also a couple of bottles of Grenache as well - Bethany Old Vines and a d'Arenberg Custodian.

I did an interesting exercise a couple of days ago. I opened two of the 2006 Hanging Rock Heathcote shiraz, one screwcap and one diam. They were opened at the same time, had an hour and a half in the decanter before I decanted them back into bottles and took them to where I was going. It was another couple of hours before I tried them and initially I thought the diam was a little flat while the screwcap showed well. Over the next couple of hours the diam version opened up a bit more and was looking really smart while the acidity screwcap version became a little prominent. Another hour or so, this had sorted itself out and I was back to preferring the screwcap version.

Very interesting Paul. Your post prompted an idea for an experiment of another kind.

Take two identical screw-capped bottles of wine, decant them, and pour them back into their bottles. Then reseal them, one with the screwcap and the other with a cork from a bottle of wine that was not TCA affected. Because of the double decant the wines may not need to be cellared for all that much time, say five years, and because of the relatively shorter time could also be kept upright.

Mahmoud.

I'm neither for or against this argument but I opened a 2007 Blue Poles Allouran Merlot/Cab Franc under screw cap the other day. Secondary flavours evolving nicely and the tannins are still firm giving great structure. In a really good place right now.

I'm leaning towards wine making/bottling procedure as having a bigger impact than the closure itself.

Anyone know who sells durand corkscrews at a fair price ?

Pej wrote:I'm leaning towards wine making/bottling procedure as having a bigger impact than the closure itself.

If bottling is undertaken in the presence of oxygen, then the bottling procedure has a bigger impact than the closure over the short term (the influence of the closure then becomes more significant with time). If bottled under protective atmosphere, then the closure will be more influential than the bottling procedure. The influence of winemaking is a whole other topic.

And the durand ..

dingozegan wrote:If bottling is undertaken in the presence of oxygen, then the bottling procedure has a bigger impact than the closure over the short term (the influence of the closure then becomes more significant with time). If bottled under protective atmosphere, then the closure will be more influential than the bottling procedure. The influence of winemaking is a whole other topic.

I wasn't aware that some wineries bottled wine in a vacuum or in an anaerobic environment ......

Mahmoud.

Tyson Stelzer's Australian Sparkling Report arrived today, and he had quite a bit to say about the extent of cork taint, which he reckons is as bad as ever in percentage terms. I've copied and pasted the relevant section below:

I am alarmed and dismayed to report that the positive trend that I observed last year in the effects of natural corks proved to be
short lived, and my tastings this year have seen a stark and dramatic return to abominable levels of detrimental influence of corks
on wine bottles.
Across my tastings, natural cork represents close to 40% of Australia’s sparkling wine labels. DIAM now accounts for more than
50% (and if you consider the total number of sparkling bottles in Australia, DIAM now represents 20 million, close to one quarter),
the balance made up of a small representation of crown seal and screw cap (mostly on moscato). I have not encountered
any bottle variation in my tastings of sparkling wines sealed with DIAM, crown seal or screw cap this year.
After reporting an encouragingly low level of cork taint of just two corks in 172 (1.2%) last year, I was alarmed to encounter five
in 88 (5.7%) this year, a stark return to the dark days when cork taint was rife across Australian wines.
And these are not old corks. All of these cork-tainted bottles were recently disgorged. Nor is this situation isolated to one
producer. These five bottles hail from five different regions and five different producers, from the smallest to the very largest.
Five bottles in 88 is a small sample size from which to draw conclusions. Was I simply unlucky or is this an ominous sign of an
alarming trend? And another question. It has long been said that Australia’s adoption of superior closures was sparked by years of
being sent inferior corks. Is this problem isolated to Australia?
During my tastings for this report, I was simultaneously tasting more than 630 New Zealand pinot noirs for The Great New
Zealand Pinot Noir Classification. Of those, I opened 500 bottles myself, the majority of which were of course screw-capped.
Of the 32 bottles from which I pulled a natural cork, an astonishing four bottles were cork tainted. One in eight. 12.5%.
In the past two months I have also opened 105 bottles of champagne sealed with natural corks to showcase at dinners. Of these,
six were corked. 5.7%. Identical to the cork taint rate I encountered in Australian sparklings this year.
Again, these are small sample sizes, but how much evidence does it take to prove this scandal is far, far from over? One corked
bottle is too many, especially now that superior closures are readily available, with a proven track record now spanning more than
half a century. I have never seen cork taint from a DIAM closure, crown seal or screw cap.
Cork companies have been insisting for 13 years that they have solved the cork taint crisis. If this is the truth, why do the results
fail so dramatically to live up to the rhetoric? My tastings this year reveal the same alarming levels of cork taint that I observed
fifteen years ago. Winemakers and wine drinkers deserve better than this.

I'd really appreciate if Tyson put this in Decanter or Wine Spectator. I'm sure there's a powerful PR game at play and if this is true its a disgrace.

As an expat, it's often a lone hand in fine wine drinking circles fighting back on TCA. There's no attitude of accountability, more an acceptance of taint amongst the Old World drinkers.

JamieBahrain wrote:I'd really appreciate if Tyson put this in Decanter or Wine Spectator. I'm sure there's a powerful PR game at play and if this is true its a disgrace.

As an expat, it's often a lone hand in fine wine drinking circles fighting back on TCA. There's no attitude of accountability, more an acceptance of taint amongst the Old World drinkers.

Yes it’s particularly shocking to read about that kind of failure rate in champagnes. What other luxury product would be allowed to fail that often?

My sample sizes are lower than Tyson's, but still see a disturbingly large proportion of seal-tainted bottles.
I've even had two instances in the last 18 months where I've been tasting at Rheingau cellar doors, and about halfway along - as we move from the screwcap-sealed entry wines to the cork-sealed Grosses Gewaches - when I get on my Oz bandwagon over corks, I get told about all their QA, highest-quality corks used, blah, blah. Then, 2 or 3 bottles later, bang - there's the TCA again! I shrug shoulders and raise eyebrows and they look apologetic. All fine at the CD. Not so good when I lovingly shlepp a €50 bottle home only to pour it down the sink.
How much of a gambler would you have to be to buy GC burgundy at a grand a bottle?
I've partaken of fewer than 30 cork-sealed bottles so far this year, but victims so far include an oxidised 98 Bin 707 (quite a contrast to the other 2 bottles opened at the same dinner), and a corked 98 Angelus.
So I'm not surprised at Stelzer's conclusions.
Graeme

What I have found with the wines I have tried over the last 10 or so years (when I started making closure fault tallies) is that the faults with corks have not decreased at all, they have been reasonably steady (and way over the too-often quoted 1 on 20 fault rate).

One startling thing I have noticed though has been the nature of the faults: early on it was around a 50/50 split between TCA/taints and premox, but over the last few years it has been far less premox and much more in the way of low-level TCA/taint. That's not a good trend in my books...

I dislike cork failure as much as the next wine-lover, but still question the alternatives.
Firstly, absolutely everyone should be using screwcap for white wines that do not require extended cellaring. In Burgundy, they are the BB's and many/most Villages wines, in Bordeaux, most Blanc.
However, after that point, the use of screwcap becomes, rightfully, debatable.
I'm not entirely sure my 2006 Leeuwin Estate chardonnays (SC) have developed the way I would like, they have a rather metallic finish, and seem pretty clipped. Haven't seen the same in the (as yet) undeveloped 2010, 2012 and 2014 versions of this wine. Neither did I see it in the 2006 when it was in it's first 8-10 years of development. Terribly small sample size, but it is interesting indeed that talking to some Burgundy producers who have experimented with SC for 1er Cru wines, they described the same findings!!
Some Burg producers sensibly use Diam for their BB's, Villages and 1er Cru wines, but still use cork for their GC's. I reckon this is a pretty sensible approach at this stage, the latest iteration of diam looks the goods, but we will find out in a further 10-15 years when the young 1er's arrive at full maturity. Many have said they will switch to diam for their GC's dependant on those results.
I'm not sold on SC for high-quality white wines, but sincerely hope they find a viable alternative to cork sooner rather than later.

As for reds, give me cork any day until diam works 100% of the time, SC is, IMO, far from an ideal alternative.

It could just be we're all used to the flavor cork adds to a wine...and maybe it adds some of that depth. Maybe it has to do with oaked vs. non-oaked wines.

Older AU Riesling under SC, is excellent...
Older Chardonnay under SC - I can see what you're saying..I've seen it with older Burgs (Including GC) under SC..Almost too fresh and not in line with some of the other aspects of the wine...

Older AU Reds seem ok..almost oddly fresh and clean...they're definitely more consistent...I've seen people prefer both in a comparison of the same wine, different closure with 13+ years from vintage.

Leflaive has moved to Diam across everything....which is a welcome change although I'm not sure it'll make a difference..

Polymer wrote:It could just be we're all used to the flavor cork adds to a wine...and maybe it adds some of that depth. Maybe it has to do with oaked vs. non-oaked wines.

Older AU Riesling under SC, is excellent...
Older Chardonnay under SC - I can see what you're saying..I've seen it with older Burgs (Including GC) under SC..Almost too fresh and not in line with some of the other aspects of the wine...

Older AU Reds seem ok..almost oddly fresh and clean...they're definitely more consistent...I've seen people prefer both in a comparison of the same wine, different closure with 13+ years from vintage.

Leflaive has moved to Diam across everything....which is a welcome change although I'm not sure it'll make a difference..

really good point with Riesling, Polymer, I forgot to mention that. Seems a grape variety that excels with SC, for whatever reason. Just not totally convinced with long-again white Burgundy, and high level Aussie chardonnays.
you are right about the altered flavour profile, that also seems to be the concern with the French producers.
what absolutely infuriates me is the occasional ignorant comment from some Aussie wine lovers who seem to think French producers are idiots and should immediately switch to SC, as if they have not carefully considered the problems/uses/advantages of alternative closures
some even dare to suggest they are just lazy!!!! incredible!!!

Just because it is a different profile doesn't mean it is wrong though...

I'm convinced one of the aged characteristics people enjoy in wine is actually CORK flavor...or some interaction of cork with other parts of a wine...More and more I'm not convinced it is just an air ingress thing.

It will be interesting to see how wines develop under some of these alternatives...glass, ardea, nomacork, diam, etc...if it is true part of the aging flavor we see is cork then no doubt only Diam will work...

We also may find certain closures work better depending on the actual elevage of the wine itself...or the grape...

Polymer wrote:Just because it is a different profile doesn't mean it is wrong though...

I'm convinced one of the aged characteristics people enjoy in wine is actually CORK flavor...or some interaction of cork with other parts of a wine...More and more I'm not convinced it is just an air ingress thing.

I think there is more to the issue than the taste of cork . Here is an excerpt from The Drinks Business where the winemaker of Rusden, Christian Canute, said this about the decision to revert back to cork:

“I wasn’t happy with how the wines bottled under screwcap had been ageing,” he says. “Our wines are handmade and bottled without fining or filtration, and under a screwcap I have noticed the wines seem to sweat – producing overly dominant reductive characters, a problem we have never had under cork.”

Although he says that this “blows off after a few hours in a decanter”, Canute became concerned that customers were drinking Driftsand immediately after opening, while sommeliers in the Australian restaurant trade had been recounting incidences of “reductive, sweaty characters, and a great deal of bottle variation, particularly in our last vintage, 2009”.

Canute explains that he considered employing sterile filtration and copper additions to clean the wines up prior to bottling, but as Rusden is renowned for its traditional approach to winemaking and minimal use of additives, that is something he will not change.

Polymer wrote:It will be interesting to see how wines develop under some of these alternatives...glass, ardea, nomacork, diam, etc...if it is true part of the aging flavor we see is cork then no doubt only Diam will work...

We also may find certain closures work better depending on the actual elevage of the wine itself...or the grape...

Mr Canute tends to agrees:

“I am aware that there are other winemakers out there unhappy with how their wines have aged under screwcap, but many would feel unsure about the market perception of moving back to cork, as there has been so much negative press, predominantly in Australia, in regards to the use of cork. “Any winemaker should be able to have the choice of using the closure they see as best for their product without negativity surrounding their decision.”

Nevertheless, Canute believes that there is room for a variety of closures, just as there is room for a variety of wine styles. As for the choice of cork source, Canute favours Portugal, and stresses that Rusden has opted for Amorim.

Mahmoud.

PS: I've not had Rusden's wines so this is in no way an endorsment of their wines or winemaking philosophy, it is merely an attempt to flesh out the perspectives behind the choice of seal.