The Auswine Forum

felixp21 wrote:

swirler wrote:Maybe these are the price in the overpriced Chinese market and they are being priced the same here so the Chinese don't feel ripped off when they do a Google, sorry, Baidu (or whatever us their CPC-endorsed search engine.) The market for expensive wine is much bigger there I'd have thought. So a few lost sales here will be more than made up by more there as the wine becomes more 'prestigious' (expensive.)

Apologies in advance for the sweeping generations.

not sure what you are getting at, but the Chinese wine drinker (and 99.99% of educated people in China, for that matter) would use exactly the same search engine as you. Everyone here uses VPN, and the internet is as free and easy to use as it is in Melbourne.
FWIW, the Bordelaise quickly learnt the very very hard way that you can't even attempt to rip off the Chinese, they are far too astute for that. If any Aussie winemaker thinks he can sell $200 shiraz in China to the "rich and dumb Chinese who'll buy any 97pt wine", he's in for a rude shock. Apart from Grange and 707, very very few premium Aussie wines are sold here. The Chinese will spend their $200 on French wine, almost every time.
and FWIW, French wines cost about the same in China as they do in Australia. That's why no-one buys them in China, they all buy therm in HK and ship them one way or another
ever wonder why HK, with a population of 7.5 million, is one of the biggest wine centres and sellers in the World??

I'm not going to bother arguing. Let's agree to disagree about most of what you've said

Ozzie W wrote:

George Krashos wrote:It is miles cheaper, even in small lots. I bought two bottles of 1er cru burgundy in the US, shipped them here via FedEx, paid WET tax etc and still saved myself AU$100 overall than what I had to pay retail here in Australia.

Any concerns about shipping wine that distance using unrefrigerated shipping? Enough issues shipping wines just interstate in Australia, let alone half way around the world.

Have shipped in stuff from the US on about 6 occasions now. Never had an issue. Granted I've always done it in Spring or Autumn to offset the seasonal change aspect to a degree. The wine always comes in those polystyrene holders. For the 3-4 days it is in transit it appears to be fine. Hasn't affected even very old wine.

-- George Krashos

yes, you can save huge $$$ even just buying the stuff from London and shipping it yourself. There are a myriad of London retailers, such as Fine and Rare, that have a huge selection, you can get just about anything you want. Shipping and paying the landing costs are not very complicated, and if you spend enough to purchase 144 dozen, I guarantee you will save 30% or more on the retail price in Australia. Good to hear some smart people have got together and are doing that, good on them. Maybe someone could start a forum "shipping" pool hehe
the real money savers are in HK, where you buy Burgundy "en-primeur" or "pre-arrival". The prices are 20% cheaper than when they arrive and are retail in HK (already ridiculously cheap compared to Australia) and some wines are only 15-20% above the ex-cellar price.
I regularly buy this way, some Burgundies I purchased in 2015 for personal consumption are less than one third retail in Australia, which I am sure everyone would understand makes no sense whatsoever. And of course, there are the frightening examples like the one I mentioned above, where the savings are even more than that.

tarija wrote:Armand Rousseau's wines are getting a bit ridiculous at the retail markups, unless I was misinformed below.

Walked into a store the other day and Rousseau Chambertin 2014 was $1000 (store keeper advised this price - there was no price tag). All sold out.

A search on wine-searcher reveals one prominent online retailer selling for $2499, others between $1818-$1900.

A good post but I am not exactly sure what you are driving at here. I am surprised that a 2014 Rousseau Chambertin was on a shelf, let alone at $1000. Most are sold to longstanding customers and never reach the shelf. The cost to Australian retailers of 2014 Rousseau Chambertin was approaching $800 (including import duty, WET and GST incurred by the importer). I was happy to pay $1100 for those I picked up and I wouldn't think it was egregious pricing for one of the greatest wines of burgundy (and hence the world). Australian retailers who receive an allocation have different approaches. Some sell at a normal markup to longstanding customers. Others, such as the prominent online retailer you mention, try it on for what they can get - yes, that is egregious pricing but consistent with the model of that retailer of selling loads of bulk wine at lowish markups and gouging on anything rare.

swirler wrote:

felixp21 wrote:

swirler wrote:Maybe these are the price in the overpriced Chinese market and they are being priced the same here so the Chinese don't feel ripped off when they do a Google, sorry, Baidu (or whatever us their CPC-endorsed search engine.) The market for expensive wine is much bigger there I'd have thought. So a few lost sales here will be more than made up by more there as the wine becomes more 'prestigious' (expensive.)

Apologies in advance for the sweeping generations.

not sure what you are getting at, but the Chinese wine drinker (and 99.99% of educated people in China, for that matter) would use exactly the same search engine as you. Everyone here uses VPN, and the internet is as free and easy to use as it is in Melbourne.
FWIW, the Bordelaise quickly learnt the very very hard way that you can't even attempt to rip off the Chinese, they are far too astute for that. If any Aussie winemaker thinks he can sell $200 shiraz in China to the "rich and dumb Chinese who'll buy any 97pt wine", he's in for a rude shock. Apart from Grange and 707, very very few premium Aussie wines are sold here. The Chinese will spend their $200 on French wine, almost every time.
and FWIW, French wines cost about the same in China as they do in Australia. That's why no-one buys them in China, they all buy therm in HK and ship them one way or another
ever wonder why HK, with a population of 7.5 million, is one of the biggest wine centres and sellers in the World??

I'm not going to bother arguing. Let's agree to disagree about most of what you've said

I am with Felix with this one as he is resident in HK/China and does know the market there. My feeling is that these high priced wines popping up in Australia are not designed for the Chinese market as I don't ever see their like in my regular trips to HK, which Felix correctly identifies as the gateway for a lot of wine (particularly more expensive stuff) to the mainland. They seem to me just ego driven flights of fancy by Australian winemakers trying to con Australian wine drinkers that their particular overpriced release is the next big thing. Nothing new in this strategy and I suspect it will mostly fail, as it has in the past.

Agree Sigmanupi.
Rousseau's Chambertin is probably year in year out amongst the greatest 10 wines in the World, and as such, it is not really wine per se, but a luxury product. It is therefore priced accordingly. Interestingly, Rousseau wines in HK are probably no cheaper than in Australia, for the reason mentioned.
Receiving a Rousseau allocation in liking winning tatts, good luck to those who have one.
IMO, we will look back at that price of $2499 for a Rousseau Chambertin in 20 years and think it to be incredibly cheap.

felixp21 wrote:IMO, we will look back at that price of $2499 for a Rousseau Chambertin in 20 years and think it to be incredibly cheap.

As crazy as this sounds, I can imagine this happening. Pinot noir being the one top end red which is not a tannic brute, and that can be approached by the new rich without too much trouble (unlike Barolo or Bordeaux).

Even Rousseau CSJ is getting up there on the secondary market - a bottle of 1999 went for over 1k the other night, after commissions. A premier cru only!

I guess we can take consolation in this Rousseau Chambertin lookalike

I wonder what that Mayer will go for in 20 years
From the few I've had they appear to be for the long haul and are very good.

sjw_11 wrote:From Domaine A... would you really pay over $300 smackeroos for a 17yr old Tassie Pinot??

"RDP" Pinot Noir

2000

$320.00

I dont like many Tassie wines but Domaine A are minty for me
I wouldnt consider this for 30 dollars ...

online it was $165 at a retailer

Ok before I disappeared for a week into the jungles of Sarawak tried a duval entity 2012 Shiraz . Still tight and will not be a HofG alternative .

Not sure why the secrecy , perhaps flippers in action but the smart money ( winefront )is on Standish as alternatives to Henschkes two superb wines . At the $100 mark where I personally felt options may be discovered. And low and behold it's the eden valley delivering and 20yeses ago I always wondered why better wines not coming out of the higher ranges .

Forgive iPhone typos ....

By the way since I have been off the scene a fraction, recovering from some little nasties...what will be a HOG alternative?
Or will it be a Davinci Code death bed confession?
Cheers
Craig

quite an interesting thread this!!!!

FWIW, it is my opinion, and quite a few otheres, that in 2006 VCC made a better wine than Petrus, at about 1/20th of the cost.
Does that make VCC a better wine than Petrus?? No way, Petrus has a track record that would annihilate VCC, 06 being a very infrequent exception.
There is no doubt that the worst vintage of HoG might be beaten by the best vintage of a $50 wine, but I do not really think that means anything. Year in, year out, HoG is one of the 3-4 best wines in Australia, and has the record to prove it.

"best wines in Australia."

Who decides this lofty title?

phillisc wrote:By the way since I have been off the scene a fraction, recovering from some little nasties...what will be a HOG alternative? Or will it be a Davinci Code death bed confession

Ha,ha,ha, I very much think so.

swirler wrote:"best wines in Australia."

Who decides this lofty title?

It is divined by his Noodly Goodness... https://www.venganza.org/about/

Seriously though, lets not open this can of worms again, we will just get back into the debate about what can beat HoG and whether there should be a price limit etc etc .. I can't handle any more of that.

JamieBahrain wrote:Ok before I disappeared for a week into the jungles of Sarawak tried a duval entity 2012 Shiraz . Still tight and will not be a HofG alternative.

Perhaps the Eligo is a better comparison than the entity. Eligo has eden valley and barossa fruit, so may hold up against HoG.
And at $100+ price point, its in the same bracket as the standish (which i agree is an astonishing wine)

phillisc wrote::wink:
By the way since I have been off the scene a fraction, recovering from some little nasties...what will be a HOG alternative?
Or will it be a Davinci Code death bed confession?
Cheers
Craig

Anyone had the gibson Australian old vine collection eden (or barossa) shiraz?

Seems everyone is on the bandwagon now
Two Taylor's Clare Valley 2013 Shiraz and Cabernet magnums at a grand each... another pisstake surely....reviewed in this morning's AFR
Suspect a number will wind up at charity auctions in the future.

Cheers
Craig

Rossco wrote:

JamieBahrain wrote:Ok before I disappeared for a week into the jungles of Sarawak tried a duval entity 2012 Shiraz . Still tight and will not be a HofG alternative.

Perhaps the Eligo is a better comparison than the entity. Eligo has eden valley and barossa fruit, so may hold up against HoG.
And at $100+ price point, its in the same bracket as the standish (which i agree is an astonishing wine)

yes I agree Rossco. Would love to try that wine one day with a little more age.

A bottle of 1951 Grange sold for $51750 at an auction in Melbourne last night.

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/home/food/rarest-grange-sells-for-staggering-51750-at-auction-20170720-gxfcfg.html

Ozzie W wrote:A bottle of 1951 Grange sold for $51750 at an auction in Melbourne last night.

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/home/food/rarest-grange-sells-for-staggering-51750-at-auction-20170720-gxfcfg.html

Ozzie, this thread is about the most egregious WINE pricing... I didn't ask what is the most expensive VINEGAR

That is just astonishing someone would pay that.

It is astonishing, though for a bottle of proven provenance, people may be buying history rather than wine.

... and despite having a bottle of the 1991 in the cellar, Grange has long since reached the level where I find it astonishing that people would buy a current release Grange!

Sticking with the Grange theme, I see that Penfolds are releasing a limited edition (1200 bottles) version called 'g3'. It's a blend of 2008, 2012 and 2014 vintages. Priced at $3000 a bottle.

Ozzie W wrote:Sticking with the Grange theme, I see that Penfolds are releasing a limited edition (1200 bottles) version called 'g3'. It's a blend of 2008, 2012 and 2014 vintages. Priced at $3000 a bottle.

Ozzie, Dave Vino has started the thread, perhaps like the wankery that is spewing out of said stable, we should do a blend too, of threads that is!!
Love the way that these wine hacks are flown business class ( or first, who knows??) into Honkers and then get a teaspoon full and then say the wine is well worth it, and then fly home. obviously too special to do a tasting at Magill.

Sounds like they have found their God

Cheers
Craig

By the way Jamie were you there

It actually pains me to flag this one as it comes direct from a producer who I generally like. But that said, there can be no sacred cows.

This is a "Wine Lovers Stocking Filler... Special Release for Xmas" which more than doubles the previous highest price from this producer and the only information in the email is a relatively ambivalent Wine Companion review (and only 94 Halliday Points! which of course is about 85 in real points but lets not start that discussion again).....

I guess when they say "stocking" they mean theirs not yours, and when they say "filler", they mean cold hard cash.... Ballycroft, take a bow.

"This wine gushes with aromas of currant, spearmint and the cedar, vanilla and cinnamon spice of high quality, New French oak. After all, the wine has spent a whopping 28 months in the stuff, following an ambitious extraction regime of four pump overs a day, for 10 days. While the immediate impression is one of ....err....oak, the wine opens nicely over a day suggesting that time in the cellar will reward those who like abundant fruit. A bit of a yeoman, yet amazingly balanced for the alcohol level. Cellar till 2038.
Ned Goodwin - Wine Companion Tasting Notes

94 Halliday points
15.6% alcohol
Only 206 bottles made
$99 a bottle (max of 3)"

Thanks to Michel and Mahmoud in another thread for drawing my attention to Gralyn Estate, a winery I have not run into before.

In this category, I could nominate their reserve $495 Vintage Port (but at least that has 35 years of bottle age), or their "5 Stars, Winestate Magazine, equalled Ch. Latour" 2008 reserve Cabernet but I have to plump for the museum release 2001 Shiraz Cabernet as the stand out of "ambitious" pricing at a mere $500 dollarydoos.

To quote their own sales pitch: "It is still amazingly bright and alive for a fourteen year old wine" per Winestate Magazine two years ago. For 500 bucks, you'd bloomin' well want it to be alive!

Hey fair credit to them I assume they manage to shift their wines, all pretty much $120 and up from there. But at that prospective QPR, I would really struggle to bother to try them.

sjw_11 wrote:Thanks to Michel and Mahmoud in another thread for drawing my attention to Gralyn Estate, a winery I have not run into before.

In this category, I could nominate their reserve $495 Vintage Port (but at least that has 35 years of bottle age), or their "5 Stars, Winestate Magazine, equalled Ch. Latour" 2008 reserve Cabernet but I have to plump for the museum release 2001 Shiraz Cabernet as the stand out of "ambitious" pricing at a mere $500 dollarydoos.

To quote their own sales pitch: "It is still amazingly bright and alive for a fourteen year old wine" per Winestate Magazine two years ago. For 500 bucks, you'd bloomin' well want it to be alive!

Hey fair credit to them I assume they manage to shift their wines, all pretty much $120 and up from there. But at that prospective QPR, I would really struggle to bother to try them.

What stands out for me is at cellar door I felt their wines were ludicrously expensive in 2000
Looking today on line was scary...

had a bit of Gralyn Cabernet and Chardonnay over the past few years.
as an estate, it is pretty good, but a long way behind the big boys such as Woodlands, Cullen, Moss Wood etc.
the 2009 Cab was ok, average and inoffensive, the 2011 Chardonnay pretty good, but no-where near the quality of 2011 Voyager, having had them side-by-side.
if those are the correct prices, I think your post might win the award for this thread, although the prices of Ben Leroux's 2015 Burgs in Australia gives Gralyn a good run for the money

felixp21 wrote:if those are the correct prices, I think your post might win the award for this thread, although the prices of Ben Leroux's 2015 Burgs in Australia gives Gralyn a good run for the money

Should we send them a plaque if they get elected the winner?

Some years ago I got a nice note back from Alister Pubrick at Tahbilk when I let him know the forum had voted them the best QPR wines in Australia, but I am not sure anyone would appreciate the feedback that had the worst QPR!!

sjw_11 wrote:Thanks to Michel and Mahmoud in another thread for drawing my attention to Gralyn Estate, a winery I have not run into before.

In this category, I could nominate their reserve $495 Vintage Port...

Gralyn Estate: in addition to possibly winning the most egregious pricing title, their "vintage port" might win the prize of highest depreciating wine on Langtons. $495 for their VP, between $17-25 for their VP on Langtons sale history!