The Barolo / Barbaresco / Nebbiolo thread

[JamieBahrain]

Nice one Brodie! You have red labels in the cellar too I recall?

[Ian S]

It's useful but I highly recommend for every vintage you check the tech sheets that are often supplied by winery. Even small ITA wineries seem to have satisfactory web pages.

Very dynamic topic that may confuse the consumer when oversimplifying.

Fully agreed

[brodie]

Nice one Brodie! You have red labels in the cellar too I recall?

Yup, have some of the 2000, 2001 and 2004 red labels. Big big price jump between the 2001s and the 2004s and then by the time the 2007s came along I was not longer that keen on the wines due to the aggressive pricing and the whole Bruna / Dante fiasco.

cheers Brodie

[JamieBahrain]

Yes, I have the 2008 Rocche del Falletto Riserva just to see what the hell went on? Have earlier too, like you, but a bit too late to load up on them when cheaper.

One vintage I did go long on was 2007. My daughter's birth year as I tasted privately with Bruno at 9am one morning in Neive. We went through the just bottled 07's. He didn't speak much English and was rugged up and looking frail. He was so passionate about his region he insisted if I returned next year he'd give me magnums. Bruna was present and the generational differences was distinct. Bruna was great but Bruno was a legend.

[Rossco]

2016 Cavallotto Langhe Nebbiolo

Decanted for 2 hours and really needed another 2+. As always the last glass was the best (Zalto)
Much darker in the glass than I expected. Dark Purple, still crystal clear and quite vibrant. Dark Cherry and plums, perfect ripeness in fruit though. Very minerally graphite type stuff. Liquorice, a touch of musk and fresh toboacco. Earthy, a light earth, quite floral, but more violets than roses.
The power behind the fruit is something else. Restrained yet commanding powdery tannis, still has a lot of maturing to go, but wow wont this be a great wine in the future!
Apparently aged 18 months in Slavonian (Croatian) old oak botti. Declassified, mostly young vine fruit from the Castiglione Falletto crus of Bricco Boschis and Vignolo. I have one left, yet still trying to find those more pure red fruit/red rose style of Traditional producers I love. The search continues.

[JamieBahrain]

2016 Cavallotto Langhe Nebbioloyet still trying to find those more pure red fruit/red rose style of Traditional producers I love. The search continues.

Should be plenty about?


Slightly upsetting for purists, Cavallotto did use rotor-fermenters. Not sure if they still do? Great winery to visit.

[Rossco]

2016 Cavallotto Langhe Nebbioloyet still trying to find those more pure red fruit/red rose style of Traditional producers I love. The search continues.

Should be plenty about?


Slightly upsetting for purists, Cavallotto did use rotor-fermenters. Not sure if they still do? Great winery to visit.

Im sure there is plenty about, I just have to wade through the offers and keep up my research.

Dont get me wrong about the Cavallotto, It was very very good. Had the style I'm looking for, just not the fruit profile. It was absolutely traditional in the oak sense, just darker fruit than I want.

[Ian S]

I have one left, yet still trying to find those more pure red fruit/red rose style of Traditional producers I love. The search continues.

Ian d'Agata's excellent Native wine grapes of Italy sheds a little light on this. True, winemaking can and does have a strong influence, but he also wrote passionately about how Nebbiolo Rosé (not a clone or biotype, but a separate grape in its own right) has fallen from favour, due to lighter colour and tannins. However it was the most fragrant of the grapes commonly found in Barolo/Barbaresco.

He does suggest a few still knowingly persevering with it, principally Elvio Cogno's Barolo Riserva 'Bricco Elena' for a 'varietal' version. Also Marchesi di Gresy's Barbaresco Martinenga having a third of it using this grape, plus Brovia blends some in.

The book is (IMO) wonderful. Certainly my favourite wine book.

[Rossco]

Ian d'Agata's excellent Native wine grapes of Italy sheds a little light on this. True, winemaking can and does have a strong influence, but he also wrote passionately about how Nebbiolo Rosé (not a clone or biotype, but a separate grape in its own right) has fallen from favour, due to lighter colour and tannins. However it was the most fragrant of the grapes commonly found in Barolo/Barbaresco.

He does suggest a few still knowingly persevering with it, principally Elvio Cogno's Barolo Riserva 'Bricco Elena' for a 'varietal' version. Also Marchesi di Gresy's Barbaresco Martinenga having a third of it using this grape, plus Brovia blends some in.

The book is (IMO) wonderful. Certainly my favourite wine book.

Appreciate that Ian, will try and see who is selling Elvio Cogno down here, and that book! Thank you

[JamieBahrain]

I didn't know Marchesi di Gresy used Nebbiolo Rosé. They never mentioned it on visits and hosting dinners. Explains the performance of a 2008 Martinenga as the odd man out in a PdB horizontal- so much more fragrant and "ready" as opposed to PdB and WOTN for me. Very interesting thanks Ian.

[JamieBahrain]

A few more over long evenings watching Netflix.


Attilio Ghisolfi Bricco Visette Barolo 2014- Impressively successful 2014. Visette is a parcel within Bussia in Monforte. Sometimes I wonder if Bussia deserves a commune status of its own due its size and diversity. I'd love to park myself there for a week or so and do deeper exploration.

Very interesting nose. Dark berry aromas immersed in tar/goudron, some smoke and new leather. Distinct high notes of menthol and faint licorice the maker says are typical in youth. Rich and sweet dark fruits, very immediate as the usually hard minerality and tannins of Bussia are here sandy-fine. This doesn't mean the wine won't age well- day two shows alluring red fruited fragrances and more of that calcium carbonate austerity/ minerality and power of Bussia

93pts+


Produttori del Barbaresco Langhe Nebbiolo 2014- This could, under the rules, be classified as Barbaresco, though many won't see this in youth when its mostly drunk. I think this is now in a representative window. Has a warm and raw nature to it. Always had heavy tar notes, delivering better now with emerging airy red fruits and chicory. Spreads well, mimicking the aromatics in flavour and completes with a sour acidity influenced by slightly green tannins.

90pts

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[Rossco]

2016 Monchiero Langhe Nebbiolo
Now we are getting somewhere in my quest for more red fruited Nebs (not quite there, but heading in the right direction!).
This is such a good QPR. Steely minerality, some very light white pepper and spice,
Lovely red cherry fruit, dark red in the glass crystal clear. Quite floral too with some rose petals and hints of aniseed.
Tannins are fantastic here, furry and prominent. Some dried oregano in there,
juicy fruit, acidity and oak treatment is very minimal (old oak botti). This is traditional neb in fine form.
Bats WAY above its average for what I paid and is perfect mid week drinking!

[JamieBahrain]

Keeping myself slightly amused trying to pair up themes for stay at home drinking. Still reeling over the cancellation of about a half a dozen incredible Barolo tastings due COVID. Many were historical, Cavallotto back to the 60's for example ( with Alfie coming to join us)

Paolo Conterno is a traditional maker with modern and clean winemaking practices. You may pick up some wood in the wines as it sees a long time in big botti French Oak. I always feel this oak regime a better option than the excessive VA and dirtiness of some producers last decade or so who persisted in a lazy fashion with the "old way".

I bought a lot of the 2007 Ginestra Riserva. It was an amzing offer I recall. Then the 2010 Ginestra Riserva came along and I moved right along as it seemed a more than a little excessive for the vintage at 15%.


Paolo Conterno Barolo Riserva Ginestra 2007- Gave this aeration to peel back monumental and unyielding purple-violet fruit. This did the job, bringing out the power and minerality of Ginestra, with pungent cockle shells and underlying dark fruits and spice and even further below, freshly turned soil. Doesn't miss a beat over a few days, maintaining freshness and drinkability. It's a very long wine, seemingly resolved structurally, though this could be the classic elegance of this part of Ginestra.

95pts


Paolo Conterno Barolo Riva del Bric 2013- Younger vines and aspect on Ginestra ( I recall ). Bright and nervy, best on day two when it opens up aromatically though still sits long and tight on the palate. Classically lifted and red fruited with a darker and spicier base. Best in a decade. Presents excellent value due the vintage, as evidenced with air drawing out powerful dark extracted fruit, with complex iodine like minerality and firm clay-tannins.

93pts+


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[Benchmark]

Elio Altare Barolo 2014

Finally dipping my toe into the Barolo world.

I am a sucker for a tale. Encouraged by this thread I started reading about the region. Early in O'Keefe's Barolo and Barbaresco he describes a young Elio Altare, frustrated with his father using old, dirty botti to make the wine, took a chainsaw to them. A moment in history that changed Piedmont and its wine forever (among other things). It is a great story and worth the read.

Linking stories like that has always been important for me, so when I spotted an Altare Barolo on the sale list I could not think of a better way to get started.

It didn't turn out how I planned, the cork had bled and the wine was either oxidised or heat damaged, a watery mess.

Shame.

On a positive note, the supplier has agreed to replace the bottle, with sincere apologies and no questions asked.

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[Ian S]

Hi Benchmark
An interesting boarding point for the nebbiolo express - Altare often joked of as the 'high priest' of modernist winemaking. No criticism mind you - it will be an interesting benchmark and one great positive of the modernist approach, is they try very hard to make the wines drinkable from the get-go.

Hope the replacement is good

Regards
Ian

[Rossco]

So reading the above post, I decided to crack my first one.....

Elio Altare barolo cannubi 2011

Pardon the French (pun intended), but this is Fvkn terrible
A Thin oaky French mess.

Nothing but oak, pencil shavings and more oak.

No fruit, all oak and acid. Jebus I'm pretty sure they added new oak chips to the 200% new oak they already had.

If you like oak, this is the wine for you, if not, stay well away.

Most likely TCA

[Ian S]

No fruit certainly does sound like TCA and that would accentuate an already heavy oak regime. It's also at odds with the modernist emphasis on bringing the fruit to the fore. At just 9 years old I'd discount the possibility of the wine simply falling over.

Jamie or others - any specific insight to offer to back up the TCA theory (or debunk it)?

[Benchmark]

Bad run for Altare.

I will open another on the weekend and see if we can break the trend.

[JamieBahrain]

No fruit certainly does sound like TCA and that would accentuate an already heavy oak regime. It's also at odds with the modernist emphasis on bringing the fruit to the fore. At just 9 years old I'd discount the possibility of the wine simply falling over.

Jamie or others - any specific insight to offer to back up the TCA theory (or debunk it)?

Hi Ian,

I've mentioned a number of times my confusion with TCA and nebbiolo. I've sort of concluded that its a bit like a big Ausse fruit bomb, when scalped with taint, you can't always obviously detect the TCA, though a dullness exists to a wine that should be flamboyant in a fruit sense.

What I've found with nebbiolo is that anytime there's a just a structural shell I suspect TCA. So I'm in agreement with your opening paragraph. A scalped Barolo may not be that obvious. What's hard is low levels of taint and as to whether the nebbiolo in its dumb phase- so again if a fierce structural shell and simple or no fruit extract I'd suspect taint.

From social media experiences, there's a disappointing consumer acceptance of TCA, so I don't believe even the best Italian makers have done enough to quash TCA. Maybe they aren't even aware of the problem thanks to consumer acceptance? Galloni did say a few years back he felt taint a significant problem. You could even add in dirty wine making practices masking TCA for generations too.

I've enjoyed my limited experience with Altare over the years. Now 2011 and their style I'm not sure if they would have an exaggerated dumb phase so Rossco's bottle sounds flawed.

[JamieBahrain]

Scarzello Barolo del Comune di Barolo 2008- Very traditional producer in the Barolo commune. Over a number of bottles, very advanced though still quite alluring. Raisins, orange peel, brown sugar. Very calm and long. Holds up well considering the advancement.

87pts


Scarzello Vigna Merenda Sarmassa Barolo 2008- Warmest part of Sarmassa evidently. Again, it's advanced, loaded with undergrowth and autumnal development. Dry fruits and herbs. A very long and seemingly complex wine- in far better shape than the above- though lacks purity of a class Barolo.

90pts

Gary over at the Winefront rates the current releases very highly. 2013. There's so much upswing in the region, with a bit more attention in the cellar in many cases, seeing delivery of world class wines. Scarzello could be a good example.

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Cantina Vignaioli Elvio Pertinace Barbaresco 1982- This is a co-op formed in 1973 and still going today. I've included the back label and I'm guessing this is their blend as opposed to single vineyard offerings. Vineyards where fruit was drawn seem to be mapped on the label and it did deliver a typical Treiso expression with high toned red florals, dry spice and clean plum notes. Still rich fruited and with Barbaresco elegance- shows its age with a rusty mineral carry and flavour persistence.

92pts

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[Rossco]

2016 Olek Bondonio Starderi Barbaresco

This is fantastic. Still too young however I received my delivery of 3 bottles today and just couldn't resist.

Beautiful tannin; still furry at the moment, acid still poking out a bit, so is the heat from the alcohol but all will settle down with time. So elegant and pure fruits. Red jellybeans, red licorice and a faint hint of aniseed and almonds.
Cinnamon and cloves with some dried rose type fragrance.
There is like a salty Sea breeze type aroma as well.... quite interesting.
If I have one very small criticism it's lacking a touch of that energy and power I have heard so much about. Just a niggle, and I'm probably over analysing this is really good.

[Rossco]

2017 G.D. Vajra Langhe Neb

Good drinking wine. Not overly complex or powerful. Nice dark cherry and liquorice. Low tannin but i really like its drinkibility. Some slight strawberry sweetness as well, length is too short though. Maybe just young, but that 2018 Olek Langhe was much better/more serious (yes and more expensive) and younger.

All that aside, food friendly and approachable now.

[JamieBahrain]

2016 Olek Bondonio Starderi Barbaresco

This is fantastic. Still too young however I received my delivery of 3 bottles today and just couldn't resist.

Beautiful tannin; still furry at the moment, acid still poking out a bit, so is the heat from the alcohol but all will settle down with time. So elegant and pure fruits. Red jellybeans, red licorice and a faint hint of aniseed and almonds.
Cinnamon and cloves with some dried rose type fragrance.
There is like a salty Sea breeze type aroma as well.... quite interesting.
If I have one very small criticism it's lacking a touch of that energy and power I have heard so much about. Just a niggle, and I'm probably over analysing this is really good.

Lucky you! Olek sold of 16's out before I got to La Berchialla. Always told him I could order a pallet of 2016's for my friends in HKG and happy to buy at his retail price.

Starderi in most vintages should be approachable throughout its long life. Check out David Fletcher's 16 Starderi. You won't be a fan of La Spinetta. There's a few others too- not sure if available in Australia. Plenty of single vineyard expressions emerging in this Cru.

[Ian S]

FWIW I would say try the La Spinetta Barbaresco wines. I must admit I found them impressive, albeit with two significant caveats
1) Very atypical, such that if served blind, you may well struggle to identify the grape
2) Prices at ~ double what I'd pay

So I'm not a buyer, but I'm sort of glad they're doing what they believe in, just as long as others don't feel compelled to follow their lead. Their Moscato d'Asti wines need no caveats - wonderfuly vibrant and texturally creamy wines and at similar prices to other examples I find a fraction less appealing. Bricco Quaglia or Biancospino bottlings are both top notch.

Coming back to the earlier discussion re: red fruited / fragrant Barolo. I've been reading Ian d'Agata's latest book where he delves into the dangerous world of terroir. One interesting snippet jumped out, where he berated the use of Picotener clones (nebbiolo biotypes) from Valle d'Aosta / Carema. They've all got the 400 series designation. In those northern climes, the wines are indeed red fruited, light yet sturdy. However planted in the Langhe, they're making (in his opinion) black fruited wines with little charm. Terroir at work (or perhaps someone's f*cked up with the labelling again ).

As for the book, I'm enjoying it less than the native wine grapes book, but I think that's mainly down to the subject matter for a terroir book being more subjective, inconsistently studied and at times plain woolly (and this is a writer who I think very good at leading readers through difficult areas). It's still a good book, and I am glad I have it. However. perhaps unsurprisingly, the subject matter makes for a less coherent book.

[Rossco]

2010 Serafino Rivella Barbaresco Montestefano
Faulty.....sad. I have one left



2010 Podere Rocche dei Manzoni Barolo Vigna Cappella di Santo Stefano

Glad I cracked it as i was in two minds (didn't want to contemplate 2 faulty bottles on a sat night)

Beautiful dark cherry fruits. The nose is perfect. Bit of graphite as well, not something I see a lot in barolo. Some medicinal cherry, star anise and dried oregano. Faint aniseed and roses. Just the pick me up I need!

Length is great, tannin still quite dominant, but that fruit will hold out no problem.

[Rossco]

Lucky you! Olek sold of 16's out before I got to La Berchialla. Always told him I could order a pallet of 2016's for my friends in HKG and happy to buy at his retail price.

Starderi in most vintages should be approachable throughout its long life. Check out David Fletcher's 16 Starderi. You won't be a fan of La Spinetta. There's a few others too- not sure if available in Australia. Plenty of single vineyard expressions emerging in this Cru.

I have some of Dave's 2014's but haven't tried one yet. There isn't a lot down here I don't think and havent seen the 2016's at all (to be fair I haven't looked hard either). Will try and hunt some out, cheers Jamie

[JamieBahrain]

Superb dinner at a private Italian kitchen.

It was fun and all about the food and the personality of the Chef. Conversations cycled from light to heavy. Anyways, just a few vibes on the following wines.

Roagna Pira Barolo Vecchie Viti 2008- Captures the classical 2008 vintage in a cool and elegant frame. Exotic aniseed like aromas and with high drinkability due precise levels of balance. Better left longer for enhanced complexity.

95pts+

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Roagna Barbaresco Crichët Pajé 2004 en magnum - Outrageously popped and poured from magnum. Hallucinating ripe and dark aromatics, forever swirling and transforming. Typically bottomless sea-deep on the palate. Structurally still a way off from being tamed.

96pts+


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Fontanafredda Barolo Vigna La Rosa1990 en magnum- Great with a variation of southern Italian dishes. Robust and honest. I like the nose a lot- it's fully mature, with a mix of light primary notes and tertiary development giving shades of youth and maturity. Good mix of truffle and fresher dark fruits, rusty Serralunga power showing an overall grace at 30 years.

93pts


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Bruno Rocca Barbarewsco 2009- Geez. Cracked the emergency spare. It came after the La Tour and faired well. Floral and expressive in a red spectrum, very long and elegant and not what I'd expect from an 09. More than a decent showing!

92pts

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Incidentally. WOTN equal between the 1989 La Conseillante & the 1955 Doisy Vedrines.

[Benchmark]

Superb dinner at a private Italian kitchen.

It was fun and all about the food and the personality of the Chef. Conversations cycled from light to heavy. Anyways, just a few vibes on the following wines.

Roagna Pira Barolo Vecchie Viti 2008- Captures the classical 2008 vintage in a cool and elegant frame. Exotic aniseed like aromas and with high drinkability due precise levels of balance. Better left longer for enhanced complexity.

95pts+

Roagna Barbaresco Crichët Pajé 2004 en magnum - Outrageously popped and poured from magnum. Hallucinating ripe and dark aromatics, forever swirling and transforming. Typically bottomless sea-deep on the palate. Structurally still a way off from being tamed.

96pts+

Amazing.

Bruno Rocca Barbarewsco 2009- Geez. Cracked the emergency spare. It came after the La Tour and faired well. Floral and expressive in a red spectrum, very long and elegant and not what I'd expect from an 09. More than a decent showing!

That is a tough gig to back up from.

Sounds like an outstanding evening, thanks for sharing.

[Rossco]

Roagna Barbaresco Crichët Pajé 2004 en magnum - Outrageously popped and poured from magnum. Hallucinating ripe and dark aromatics, forever swirling and transforming. Typically bottomless sea-deep on the palate. Structurally still a way off from being tamed.

96pts+

Incidentally. WOTN equal between the 1989 La Conseillante & the 1955 Doisy Vedrines.

Wow such tiny production AND there are magnums floating around.......and it wasn't even WOTN.....
What a night!

[JamieBahrain]

Yep hiss-boo a claret one the night!

93 of 120 magnums. Crichët Pajé 2004 needs another 5 years minimum.