The Barolo / Barbaresco / Nebbiolo thread

[Ozzie W]

2010 Benevelli Piero Barolo Ravera
...
For the money, is there a better Barolo? (Thats a genuine question, as im still just a complete novice in Italy)

At $80 down under (2015 vintage) I can't think of one.

I've got a single bottle of 2010 in my cellar. Based on your TN it seems like I should wait a few more years before opening. I'm still trying to work out how long I like my Barolo cellared for optimal enjoyment (obviously vintage dependent too).

For my tastes the 2006 Benevelli Ravera is just entering its peak now, 2004 also fantastic. I reckon 2010 is another 5 years away.

Thanks for the advice. I generally don't open any Barolo under 10 years. I reckon around 15 years could be the sweet spot for my palate. I usually like my Bordeaux blends with 20+ years on them. Aussie Pinot Noir with 10 years. Burgundy 1er with 15-20 years. Not sure how this translates to Nebbiolo. I just don't have enough experience drinking older Nebbiolo yet.

[Ozzie W]

2010 Benevelli Piero Barolo Ravera
...
For the money, is there a better Barolo? (Thats a genuine question, as im still just a complete novice in Italy)

At $80 down under (2015 vintage) I can't think of one.

I've got a single bottle of 2010 in my cellar. Based on your TN it seems like I should wait a few more years before opening. I'm still trying to work out how long I like my Barolo cellared for optimal enjoyment (obviously vintage dependent too).

Knowing how you like your wines, I would say 5 years to let the tannin soften a little more BUT (and this is probably the hardest part), I can see
a fair bit of bottle variation based on CT notes. So my particular bottle was drinking young, my other two........ wont know
till I crack them.

Yes, bottle variation a significant factor with older wines. Anecdotally, I think (red) Italian wines are more affected by bottle variation than say Bordeaux or Burgundy.

[Ozzie W]

Retail $ 100 or less AUD for a point of reference.

At $100 there's a few options that come to mind. Others have already mentioned:

There’s a number of favourites on the Wine Front - Bel Colle for example .

Other notable mentions, including Barbaresco:
Schiavenza
Podere Ruggeri Corsini
Produttori del Barbaresco
La Ca' Nova
Musso

I'd add the following producers to the list above:

Massolino
Monchiero
Oddero
Trediberri
Vajra

[Ian S]

Also important with Barolo / Barbaresco to understand the style(s) you like. Some lean towards the austere (and potentially stinky) traditional style. Others price the accessibility and upfront fruit of more modernist producers. There is a wide spectrum now, and understanding what you enjoy on that spectrum can help, but it will take a while to work that out.

On the wine berserkers form, a guy called Pat Burton collated a list of producers / wines across the spectrum, based on forumite opinions. As such it's opinion and should be treated with a little caution. However it is a great resource for helping people understand their own preferences and which producers might / might not appeal. FWIW I'm happy across a reasonable spread, from ultra traditional to 'lean modern', so more favouring the traditional style, but not dogmatic about it.

That list will also give a hint as to just how many producers there are in the region and it changes each year

[Dragzworthy]

Also important with Barolo / Barbaresco to understand the style(s) you like. Some lean towards the austere (and potentially stinky) traditional style. Others price the accessibility and upfront fruit of more modernist producers. There is a wide spectrum now, and understanding what you enjoy on that spectrum can help, but it will take a while to work that out.

On the wine berserkers form, a guy called Pat Burton collated a list of producers / wines across the spectrum, based on forumite opinions. As such it's opinion and should be treated with a little caution. However it is a great resource for helping people understand their own preferences and which producers might / might not appeal. FWIW I'm happy across a reasonable spread, from ultra traditional to 'lean modern', so more favouring the traditional style, but not dogmatic about it.

That list will also give a hint as to just how many producers there are in the region and it changes each year

Thanks Ian, appreciate this and will take a look. My journey into Piedmontese wine is still young so directions help.

[JamieBahrain]

Yes it's a great list of Pat Burtons. I often use it, though as Ian alludes to, caution required. It's not definitive and certainly can change quickly. A good reference used with follow up detective work.

Best served for throwing out simple arguments of modern/traditional at the start of your nebbiolo journey. This seems to be an issue on the Australian boards, more so than international commentary ( recently anyways ). As the narrow import range into Australia broadens, this reference will be even more useful for local Piedmont drinkers.

[Ian S]

Yes, maybe in the 1990s it was often as simple as modernist OR traditionalist, accompanied by thinly veiled animosity in the region. Everyone's calmed down now, and there is a broad spread that is still changing as producers aim for their sweet spot.

Also worth testing out some Langhe Nebbiolo, some of which are (IMO) better than cheap Barolo/Barbaresco. Personal highlights in this wider DOC have been Cavalotto, Cascina Ballarin and Cascina Saria, though Vietti's Perbacco seems the most talked up one. At best, they're a mini Barbaresco/Barolo, lacking a little of the tannins, and maturing earlier, but the maturity following a similar path to the grand wines. They can also be a useful way to get an early marker for a vintage.

[Mark Carrington]

Agreed.
Roagna produce a very good Langhe.

[JamieBahrain]

Chatting of value, pitted a superstar ( for many ) of QPR versus a Barbaresco from a smaller producer. PdB versus Rizzi Barbaresco.

Rizzi is so perfect now on day one. The vintage and cooler site providing dancy cherry-menthol fruits, an airiness with medicinal-herbal notes. Clean and easy delivery, medium weighted and good fruit extracts on the edges, tannin is fruit-furry and fine. Oddly, hardens up on day two, heavy balsamic notes and austerity and palate savouriness. Little bit of a mystery. I have 5 more bottles that just sit in the wine fridge to deter from opening better wines wastefully. 92pts+ day one.

PdB 2016 is retreating a little from its explosiveness on first release. It's darker and more powerful than Rizzi; more heavy weighted and built for the ages. At a stage where food is needed to tame if fruit is drifting toward a shut-down. Beautiful and still complex- dominating in a spicy red spectrum-it is commanding its long 30 year+ cellaring life! This is my third bottle showing similar in recent weeks so may be one to forget about now- or this batch a little varied due sea travels. High accolades stand! 94pts+

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[Ian S]

As the price difference widens, I find myself leaning towards the PDB standard bottling vs. their riserva bottlings.

[JamieBahrain]

I think it was the 2013 riservas, I griped of price increases, yet in the USA and Australia they were the same according to social media ( and Wine Front comments ). I contacted a retail outlet in ITA and bought them for the same low price as always.

The UK merchants who pedal them outwards to Asia seem to have marked them up considerably- especially as you say in comparison to the traditional bottling. Then, after the hype of release, except Asili and Rabaja ( sold out I guess ), they all turned up at pretty smart prices via different sources.

So I don't really understand the pricing anymore with riservas and proceed with caution- they actually don't need to be in my cellar with so many other options. I did pick up magnums in Monforte ( 2014 ) shamefully discounted though no doubt pleasing locals being so deep in enemy territory ( plenty of playful barbs between the communities I noted last visit ).

[JamieBahrain]

Roagna is harder to visit than Gaja! Just reminiscing after Rossco's note elsewhere. They are wines built to age. We were lucky enough to taste back to the early 70's on visit.

Crichet Paje vineyard in picture.

If you can't get into Gaja ( very worthwhile ) try your luck with Roagna.


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[Dragzworthy]

Since we're sort of on the topic of good Langhe... I don't have much experience in Nebbiolo but has anyone tried Mossio Luen Langhe? I had my eye on a vintage Barolo whilst at a restaurant in Milan a few years ago but was strongly encouraged towards this wine by the sommelier despite it being half the price of the Barolo. I didn't take many notes (situation not befitting) but I recall it being a glorious drop!

[Ian S]

Not one I've heard of I'm afraid, but I'm impressed with a sommelier advising on a trade down (though I suspect also to a wine that would have been more open than a Barolo).

[Dragzworthy]

Thanks Ian. Good thinking re Barolo being potentially more closed than the Langhe. I too was impressed that he steered me away from a much more expensive wine nonetheless. Great restaurant near Porta Genoca in Milan called Osteria Del Binari, I recommend it having been several times.

[Ian S]

Great restaurant near Porta Genoca in Milan called Osteria Del Binari, I recommend it having been several times.

I remember that being on my list as possible places to eat in Milano when we visited (over a decade ago). In the end we just had a light bite in the Rinascente department store cafeteria, and returned earlier than planned to Torino. Apart from the food shops around Peck, Milano really didn't spark for us.

Perhaps fortuitously, I applied for a job recently that would have had me based in Milano

[JamieBahrain]

Marchesi di Grésy Martinenga Langhe Nebbiolo 2010- Graceful and perfectly mature. Slightly understated dark violets and red florals in decay. Palate builds with both air and food; delivering light cherry fruit notes and tobacco on a long run of acidity with reviving tannins.

90pts


I don't hear much of Marchesi di Grésy. Not sure why? The Martinenga Cru is a monopole where the above wine is from. It's a beautiful property, Martinenga sits in a magnificent ampithearte, above to the left is Asili and to the right is Rabja, below is Rio Sordo. Jeffrey Chilcott, the NZ cellar master, is a great host. I've gone for a tasting at 10am and come out and its dark! I've had my wine friends hosted at the winery numerous times. On one occasion we tasted the range and then took back vintages up into the hills and a small village ( Mango ) where the local Nonna cooked for us. He's dropped by HKG as I put on a tasting back to the 80's with magnums of Marchesi di Grésy.

Well worth the effort!

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[Dragzworthy]

Great restaurant near Porta Genoca in Milan called Osteria Del Binari, I recommend it having been several times.

I remember that being on my list as possible places to eat in Milano when we visited (over a decade ago). In the end we just had a light bite in the Rinascente department store cafeteria, and returned earlier than planned to Torino. Apart from the food shops around Peck, Milano really didn't spark for us.

Perhaps fortuitously, I applied for a job recently that would have had me based in Milano

It is...or maybe was a great restaurant?

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[JamieBahrain]

Rio Sordo is not an underrated nor undiscovered Cru. With this small horizontal, Rio Sordo ably presents its site and soils, in a predictable manner.

I've spent a lot of time the area. Staying at Nicolinis in Tre Stelle near the top of Rio Sordo- a restaurant with an extravagant wine list and sitting upon a ridge line, with commanding views across Rio Sordo to the Tower of Barbaresco. And Cascina delle Rose has a lovely B&B within their winery. It sits on a back road that winds down Rio Sordo, on a scenic route taking you past Martinenga, Asili and Rabaja.

Both wines typified Rio Sordo. Cascina delle Rose has arguably far more complex soils and higher elevation. The wines were full, yet delivered in slick, typical Rio Sordo fashion- tannins alluvial. Fruit is dark, though enhanced by mint and herb notes ( more pronounced with delle Rose ) and by day two they both had a distinct balsamic note.

Vintage 2008 was underrated outside the cognoscenti. Aldo Vacca of PdB states its a vintage needing more time to come together than is usaul for PdB riservas.


Produttori del Barbaresco Barbaresco Rio Sordo Riserva 2008- Still needs a few years if popping and pouring and at the stage where a decanter could bring a hard austerity into play.

Starts with very dark fruit notes embedded in tar/dark chocolate and with higher notes of dried mint and herb. Spices, licorice and red jam emerge. It's slick and full bodied, complete yet unexpressive on the palate with dark notes replicating the nose. Completes with a wash of alluvial tannins, specks of minerality and tar on the finish. Next day balsamic and earth emerging.

93pts+


Cascina delle Rose Barbaresco Rio Sordo 2008- A full and compelling wine that delivers the elegance of Rio Sordo in contrast. Like PdB, its dark aromatically, though with far more complex mint and spice notes, that turn particularly fragrant by day two. Full, yet complete, smooth and even. More licorice fruit though tannins mimic PdB in profile, with fresher acidity and the elegance of more elevation.

94pts


A lovely family. Hope they are doing OK. The winery, during WW2, was the Shindler's List of Alba ( on a tiny scale ) during a period of great trauma for Italy. An amazing history.

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[JamieBahrain]

Silvio Grasso Barolo Bricco Luciani 2004-Intensely gratifying now though with latent power to extend its performance with more cellaring. Quite something and refutes the simple arguments of La Morra being elegant and shorter term propositions.

A well crafted union of vintage and vineyard site, barrique and fruit. Baking spices, lush red berries and currants, iodine and tobacco. Full and ample, reflecting the aromatics on a rounded palate. Finishing in a commanding manner-oak a touch drying for the purists yet for the hedonists the fruit freshens with red licorice & wet tobacco persistence.

94pts


I recall a visit to Silvio Grasso near 10 years ago, where Marilena accepted myself and family as their own and we tasted and were treated like lauded wine critics. I sure hope all is well- another lovely family.

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[JamieBahrain]

Alessandro e Gian Natale Fantino Barolo Bussia "Cascina Dardi" 2005- Just a little muted in comparison to recent bottles. I know its imported to Australia and I suggest it is another producer on upswing. Dardi is a complex site in wider Bussia- where the wines don't have the "bite" of Monforte and complete with more structural resolution and elegance. Traditional makers btw. One of the Fantino brothers was an oenolgist with Bartolo Mascarello for 20 years!

Tonight more simple than last. Dark fruits and spice, very easy an satisfying. Variation at play here as I was more excited a few years back which I included below.




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Alessandro e Gian Natale Fantino Barolo Bussia "Cascina Dardi" 2005- Another bargain from Monforte. Lifted red fruits, darker licorice, menthol, crushed flowers and herbs and a pungent earthy salinity. Expansive across the length and breadth of the palate, medium weighed with dancey tar and rose fruit flavors- a traditional back palate tannin grip dominates the flavor persistence.

Very happy with this wine.

92pts

[JamieBahrain]

Gaja Barolo Dagromis 2004- This has settled well and drinks far better than a year ago when it first arrived from a sea shipment from Europe. In 2004, the fruit sourced from La Morra, Cerequio to be exact. Now Dagromis is a blend that includes Serralunga fruit.

Oak has integrated with the coquettish 2004 vintage. Aromatically alluring -it’s cliche but a wine for the nose- modern, plush, dark and red cherry fruit notes, the oak is savoury and there’s complex herbal nuances with fading high-menthol carry. It’s quite dark, full and rich fruited on the palate. Gratifying though not matching the interest of the nose. A winter-warmer with its modern carry and fruit weight, aided in delivery, by oak spiciness .

93pts


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[JamieBahrain]

I continue the purge of the wine fridges- drinking what I'd hoped to leave a bit longer. A couple of vibes below.

Now Vietti I came very close to buying six packs of all their Cru's this year. They were the first 16's to hit the market. Points from Galloni saw the games begin early. Small increase in price from the 2015 release. Then the 100pts for Ravera saw it offered at 40% more and some mixed messages from retailers. Long story short, told them to jam it but I'm guessing one big offer was removed from the market and re-released all Cru's for 40% more a few weeks later.

If you buy Vietti blindly you don't know Barolo- I almost broke my own rules. But Galloni's glowing comments I wondered if they've arrived at freak status?

Vietti Perbacco Nebbiolo Langhe- Quality has been elevated, according to Luca Vietti, with inclusion of fruit from a newly bought Barbaresco Cru they are getting their head around.

A bit of a squealer on day one with lifted notes in the light red spectrum, menthol and high acidity. Dramatic on day two- builds darker fruit weight and settles toward a very good expression of Langhe nebbiolo.

90pts

Vietti Castiglione Barolo 2013- This is one to watch. It's viewed by the market incorrectly as a "normale" or "basic" Barolo whereas listening to Luca Vietti it has a high quality slant and respect for the tradition of blending. From vineyards all over and not just Castiglione. I just had an offer for 2016 in magnums. Two months ago I would have snapped them up-perfect format and what a wine for 15 years +

Although the winemaker seems at play throughout, this is well-crafted all round and a few years off its window ( being just a bit sleepy ). Red fruits in confit and jam, lush and layered, perfectly even and ever so well balanced with crafted, soft tannins. Effortless drinking- I'd declare it wasteful to drink now ( I managed to get three bottles into my Adelaide cellar thankfully ).


93pts+


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[Rossco]

Vietti Perbacco Nebbiolo Langhe- Quality has been elevated, according to Luca Vietti, with inclusion of fruit from a newly bought Barbaresco Cru they are getting their head around.

A bit of a squealer on day one with lifted notes in the light red spectrum, menthol and high acidity. Dramatic on day two- builds darker fruit weight and settles toward a very good expression of Langhe nebbiolo.

90pts

Saw this in Aust recently for about $40 a bottle (well that was the last auction price i saw, didnt see hammer price), didnt really know if I should pull the trigger or not. Decided not, but maybe I should have grabbed a couple.

[JamieBahrain]

Worth a crack Rossco. Pushing fair value beyond $50

So much Piedmontese wine on the secondary market ? Wonder why?

[Benchmark]

Also important with Barolo / Barbaresco to understand the style(s) you like. Some lean towards the austere (and potentially stinky) traditional style. Others price the accessibility and upfront fruit of more modernist producers. There is a wide spectrum now, and understanding what you enjoy on that spectrum can help, but it will take a while to work that out.

On the wine berserkers form, a guy called Pat Burton collated a list of producers / wines across the spectrum, based on forumite opinions. As such it's opinion and should be treated with a little caution. However it is a great resource for helping people understand their own preferences and which producers might / might not appeal. FWIW I'm happy across a reasonable spread, from ultra traditional to 'lean modern', so more favouring the traditional style, but not dogmatic about it.

That list will also give a hint as to just how many producers there are in the region and it changes each year

I can't find this thread. Can you link it?

[Ian S]

No problem, here it is. The front page has the latest summary.
https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtop ... nal+modern

Best treated as 'reasonable opinions' rather than hard fact, and it's an ever changing landscape. Useful nonetheless.

[brodie]

Wonderful wine last night: 2004 Giacosa Barbaresco Rabaja (white label). Just such a beautiful wine to drink and savour. Mid red, slight browning on edge, lovely floral nose with red fruits, elegant powerful refined palate. Purity of fruit, fine grained tannins, beautiful balance, long finish. Youthful but very approachable. Elegance and power in glass, reminds of a grand cru burgundy in terms of the purity of fruit expression and the effortless weightless power. Stood up for about a week and decanted at 1pm. Went really well with Chicken Parmigiana and polenta.

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[Benchmark]

No problem, here it is. The front page has the latest summary.
https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtop ... nal+modern

Best treated as 'reasonable opinions' rather than hard fact, and it's an ever changing landscape. Useful nonetheless.

Thank you.

[JamieBahrain]

It's useful but I highly recommend for every vintage you check the tech sheets that are often supplied by winery. Even small ITA wineries seem to have satisfactory web pages.

Very dynamic topic that may confuse the consumer when oversimplifying.