Old Australians From Climate Controlled Storage.

[JamieAdelaide]

I had a good look at Coriole’s Lloyd Reserve shiraz. I’m sure there’s far more knowledgeable drinkers of the Southern Vales, but IMO this was one of the earlier styles that showed superb cellarability in the early 90’s when the region finding its feet.

A 97 showed superb complexity yet still preserved a plum violet-black fruits. A long wine, it’s shed flesh with age and delivers in a medium frame.

A magnum of 2002 was a complete outlier for the marquee in my experience ( though happy to be corrected) I would love to present this blind to my old Hong Kong crowd. Drinkers of great Burgundy and Northern Rhone. I feel it’s airy suppleness in lower end, medium frame, with intermingling fruit complexity not usually attributed to southern Australia, would see them in rapture. Very different!

The 2001 Coriole Shiraz Lloyd Reserve was a ripper in its more normal style. This is where great cellaring comes into its own. There’s freshness, a structure fined and not baked and the fruit still has gentle primary traces. The nose is loaded with mushroom-like development stirred with sweet dark fruits. Long and easy.

Another wine, Mt Ida Shiraz 2002, had a similar evolution to the Coriole in its mushroom notes intermingling with darker fruit. Needed a few hours in a decanter due screw cap closure whereas the Coriole popped & poured. Good wine, not as classical as the Tisdall’s versions of the 80’s and 90’s, having a big corporation feel of craftsmanship. I recall buying a six pack for $30-ish coming back from the Barossa in 2004 at DM’s in Elizabeth! I was very unsatisfied with the trip, where the Barossa was changing and cellar door experiences saw wines more expensive than retail. So instead of filing the boot in the Barossa I did it at DM’s Elizabeth.

[phillisc]

Wow, Mt Ida and Tisdall. Think Toni Stockhausen was the wine maker in the late 80s/early 90s and then a young Nick Walker before Mildara took over. I still have some 96/98/02 largely purchased from Skye Cellars at Auldana, of all places, where prices were arbitrary and could be negotiated. Another entry that forms part of my early Victoria foray. Indeed with a bit of a crossover on the Mount Ida theme, purchased plenty of Seppelts GW from them too.

Thanks for the note on the LR, have 94/97/98 and 01. Superb wine, in the early days was the lone standing totem/premium marque for the Vale (always favoured it over Block 6/RSW/Eileen Hardy). And surprisingly, for me, what I would note as excellent VFM...sadly at $110 now Others have caught up and passed, but would argue that fruit is no where near as good, or indeed the winemaking. Mark Lloyd was/is very good at his craft and the youngsters coming through have a wealth of experience to draw on.

Need to retire and pull a few corks, unfortunately still a fair way off.
Cheers Craig

[mychurch]

I remember the 94 and earlier vintages of the Lloyd Corioli Shiraz being sold in Amsterdam in the late 90s. I had bought it in the UK and liked it, but the Dutch Merchant (Chabrol om the Overtoom, who is still there) was asking too much for it. I think I bought and drunk a few bottles, but not a lot more. At the time I found it quite austere for a premium Auz red and no doubt I’d appreciate it a lot more now. Thanks for bring back some happy memories.

[JamieAdelaide]

Wynn’s Johnson’s Block 2004. Two bottles and both different under screw cap. The last showed the odd mix of Shiraz and Cabernet from the Coonawarra. Shiraz with spice and herbs and if medium intensity versus more layered and intense Coonawarra Cabernet. Quite an OK wine with menthol on the finish off putting.


Henschke Abbotts Prayer 2005. Geez the best thing about screw cap is you don’t lose an Angel’s share. Filled to the brim seemingly. Far more serious than the Abbotts of old. A 95 earlier very fine and herbally, whereas this showed inexpressive dark fruits, needling fine cedar oak with licorice/aniseed like fruit flavours in a layered plate. A good wine though I think it’s glacial fruit development askew with structural evolution.

Henschke Cyril 96. Put this on the table at Ian’s birthday lunch and I only got a small glass. Beautiful and clean Cyril, just beginning it’s weight shedding suggesting a peak well and truly achieved. Sat nicely with a 69 Lakes Folly Shiraz Cabernet.

[JamieAdelaide]

I took a trio of magnums to drink in Melbourne over the weekend.

Craiglee Shiraz 1998 en magnum was exceptional. I was blown away by its Rhone-like red fruit complexity, black fruits emerged with black pepper. Beautiful flavours, fresh and clean. It was long with resolved tannins- flinty minerals and tension driving the wine to impressive heights.

Heritage Rossco’s Shiraz 2004 en magnum. Wow! Takes you to the Barossa in a beautiful expression that’s at maturation peak. A Grange-killer of incredible QPR, of course it lacks the supremacy of 04 Grange but this is why you cellar wine. A nice touch was a fine choc mint note to go with restrained decadence of the wine.


Cullen’s Cab Merlot 1995 en magnum. Not too different to a bottle 20 years ago! It’s still layered, rich and even in good length. Some would say boring. I enjoyed the wine as there’s some tertiary interest at the edges to go along with the rich berry buzz.

Magnums rock! I don’t understand the profiteering by wineries in Australia as this format sure seems to deliver a better wine.

[kenzo]

Great to hear on the Rossco's - I still have 3 mags of the 98, and 3 mags of the 98 cabernet from Heritage. Great value for money and a real portrait of Barossa shiraz. From what I remember they only charged twice a standard bottle size.

[JamieAdelaide]

Thanks Kenzo. I wasn’t clear on magnum
pricing, however, you are right, Heritage one of the few that just charge double a 750ml. 98’s should be super !

[WineRick]

I took a trio of magnums to drink in Melbourne over the weekend.

Craiglee Shiraz 1998 en magnum was exceptional. I was blown away by its Rhone-like red fruit complexity, black fruits emerged with black pepper. Beautiful flavours, fresh and clean. It was long with resolved tannins- flinty minerals and tension driving the wine to impressive heights.

Heritage Rossco’s Shiraz 2004 en magnum. Wow! Takes you to the Barossa in a beautiful expression that’s at maturation peak. A Grange-killer of incredible QPR, of course it lacks the supremacy of 04 Grange but this is why you cellar wine. A nice touch was a fine choc mint note to go with restrained decadence of the wine.


Cullen’s Cab Merlot 1995 en magnum. Not too different to a bottle 20 years ago! It’s still layered, rich and even in good length. Some would say boring. I enjoyed the wine as there’s some tertiary interest at the edges to go along with the rich berry buzz.

Magnums rock! I don’t understand the profiteering by wineries in Australia as this format sure seems to deliver a better wine.

I don't think it's a case of profiteering re. magnum prices by wineries. Magnums cost somewhere between 30 - 50% more than two 750ml bottles. Short-run label sets are eye-watering in their cost, a quality, cork-mouth, empty magnum costs about 3x 750ml, cartons, capsules/waxing and a decent 50 x 44 Ref 1+ cork all contribute to distorting cost. But the biggest cost is the bottling, unless of course you hand-bottle/hand-cork/hand-capsule(wax), and are close to a lab to check bottling sulphurs. I'm not talking about the 'bonus magnums' (screw-cap of course) that you increasingly see in promoting 'Cheap & Cheerfuls'>

[Matt@5453]

I took a trio of magnums to drink in Melbourne over the weekend.

Craiglee Shiraz 1998 en magnum was exceptional. I was blown away by its Rhone-like red fruit complexity, black fruits emerged with black pepper. Beautiful flavours, fresh and clean. It was long with resolved tannins- flinty minerals and tension driving the wine to impressive heights.

Heritage Rossco’s Shiraz 2004 en magnum. Wow! Takes you to the Barossa in a beautiful expression that’s at maturation peak. A Grange-killer of incredible QPR, of course it lacks the supremacy of 04 Grange but this is why you cellar wine. A nice touch was a fine choc mint note to go with restrained decadence of the wine.


Cullen’s Cab Merlot 1995 en magnum. Not too different to a bottle 20 years ago! It’s still layered, rich and even in good length. Some would say boring. I enjoyed the wine as there’s some tertiary interest at the edges to go along with the rich berry buzz.

Magnums rock! I don’t understand the profiteering by wineries in Australia as this format sure seems to deliver a better wine.

I don't think it's a case of profiteering re. magnum prices by wineries. Magnums cost somewhere between 30 - 50% more than two 750ml bottles. Short-run label sets are eye-watering in their cost, a quality, cork-mouth, empty magnum costs about 3x 750ml, cartons, capsules/waxing and a decent 50 x 44 Ref 1+ cork all contribute to distorting cost. But the biggest cost is the bottling, unless of course you hand-bottle/hand-cork/hand-capsule(wax), and are close to a lab to check bottling sulphurs. I'm not talking about the 'bonus magnums' (screw-cap of course) that you increasingly see in promoting 'Cheap & Cheerfuls'>

Great summary. General consumers don't know this.

[JamieAdelaide]

Are these special costings peculiar to Australia? Because I just checked cellartracker and I have an embarrassing number of magnums from wineries abroad that never cost more than an extra 10% the price of 2 x 750ml. Most cost less than that figure and some were just double the price of the 750ml.

[phillisc]

Are these special costings peculiar to Australia? Because I just checked cellartracker and I have an embarrassing number of magnums from wineries abroad that never cost more than an extra 10% the price of 2 x 750ml. Most cost less than that figure and some were just double the price of the 750ml.

I think costs for large format bottles sit somewhere between reality and price gouging...its bigger its special, so you'll have to pay more. I can perhaps understand that tooling up bottling lines has some associated cost, but some wineries take a big advantage for large format. There is one I buy from every year in 750 ml (around $70), their magnum...$300!!??
Cheers Craig

[JamieAdelaide]

Oh that would be Rockfords Craig?

I stopped buying their magnums when the mark-up versus 750ml was out of kilter with my wine buying logic.

I still have a dozen various magnums and have presented many more. The 98 BP magnum convincing me finally of the quality of that vintage and how it finally pipped the 96 vintage for me. 96 versus 98 BP Magnum lunch I recall!

So it was $80 maximum and maybe less for a BP 98 magnum and $28 for 750ml. I recall being flabbergasted at the increase of pricing for magnums a few years later at Stonewalllers

[WineRick]

Are these special costings peculiar to Australia? Because I just checked cellartracker and I have an embarrassing number of magnums from wineries abroad that never cost more than an extra 10% the price of 2 x 750ml. Most cost less than that figure and some were just double the price of the 750ml.

I think costs for large format bottles sit somewhere between reality and price gouging...its bigger its special, so you'll have to pay more. I can perhaps understand that tooling up bottling lines has some associated cost, but some wineries take a big advantage for large format. There is one I buy from every year in 750 ml (around $70), their magnum...$300!!??
Cheers Craig

I would have thought $180 ( $200 max ) would be a fair magnum price relative to 750ml price. $300 - opportunistic gouging, though if they get it and sell out annually, then their pricing seems appropriate!
FYI: 2021 Ch. Lafite en primeur is $1,176 (750ml) and $2,350 (magnum) - think I'll pass.

[sjw_11]

I don't think it's a case of profiteering re. magnum prices by wineries. Magnums cost somewhere between 30 - 50% more than two 750ml bottles. Short-run label sets are eye-watering in their cost, a quality, cork-mouth, empty magnum costs about 3x 750ml, cartons, capsules/waxing and a decent 50 x 44 Ref 1+ cork all contribute to distorting cost. But the biggest cost is the bottling, unless of course you hand-bottle/hand-cork/hand-capsule(wax), and are close to a lab to check bottling sulphurs. I'm not talking about the 'bonus magnums' (screw-cap of course) that you increasingly see in promoting 'Cheap & Cheerfuls'>

Point of order on this- the cost of a magnum with regard to the cost of the bottle + cork + bottling process is 30-50% more. However this increase needs to be viewed next to the normal cost of a bottle + cork + bottling which I guess even with the finest materials wouldn't top out at more than... $15? Making a magnum c$20-22?

So while I think this point is valid, I don't think this is a full explanation. That would maybe explain the magnum being priced 5-10% higher than 2x single bottles? Unless I drastically underestimate the high end cost of a bottle + cork??

[Ian S]

Just occasionally I've experienced magnums cheaper than 2x single bottle prices, and I bought them. From memory a 1999 Grande Annata Avignonesi VN di M; Ch Lamartine Cahors from a local wine shop that specialises in large formats, plus a smaller Barbaresco producer whose single vineyards magnums were so cheap I felt a little guilt in buying them for so little.

I don't mind paying ~10% more, as magnums are a rare buy for me, in keeping with the rarity of opening them. Any more though, and I don't feel enthused at paying the premium.

[JamieAdelaide]

In my early days of wine buying internationally, often an offer would go out from say BBR and the 750ml would sell out. A three pack or six pack of magnums all that’s left for exactly double the price. Barolo wise I think I’ve got lots of Monprivato and Brovia in this format due missing a popular offer. Bit hard to find folks to drink magnums with in Australia with such rare beasts.

[JamieAdelaide]

Working through StHallet’s Old Blocks. A 1996 smelt perfect after popping the cork. Classic Barossan XMas cake and plum pudding, vanilla and black fruits. Maybe I should have decanted the wine for the expression was one dimensional- of simple blackberry and char on length. A 1989 Old Block was beautiful. I do well with this vintage although it could just be sentiment. In a complex red fruited domain, neatly resolved that pulls the wine up gratifyingly in medium length. Bravo!

I need a giant lobster if anyone has reccos in Adelaide? Want to pair it with Montrachet & Leeuwin Estate for a bit of fun this week.

And a Melton Cabernet Sauvignon 2002. Point of difference on Krondorf Rd. Plush chocolatety expression in good form and holding- wouldn’t want to see it tertiary as I reckon it would go pruney.

[WineRick]

I don't think it's a case of profiteering re. magnum prices by wineries. Magnums cost somewhere between 30 - 50% more than two 750ml bottles. Short-run label sets are eye-watering in their cost, a quality, cork-mouth, empty magnum costs about 3x 750ml, cartons, capsules/waxing and a decent 50 x 44 Ref 1+ cork all contribute to distorting cost. But the biggest cost is the bottling, unless of course you hand-bottle/hand-cork/hand-capsule(wax), and are close to a lab to check bottling sulphurs. I'm not talking about the 'bonus magnums' (screw-cap of course) that you increasingly see in promoting 'Cheap & Cheerfuls'>

Point of order on this- the cost of a magnum with regard to the cost of the bottle + cork + bottling process is 30-50% more. However this increase needs to be viewed next to the normal cost of a bottle + cork + bottling which I guess even with the finest materials wouldn't top out at more than... $15? Making a magnum c$20-22?

So while I think this point is valid, I don't think this is a full explanation. That would maybe explain the magnum being priced 5-10% higher than 2x single bottles? Unless I drastically underestimate the high end cost of a bottle + cork??

I didn't word this properly. Should have said "The cost of filling, labelling and packaging magnums is somewhere between 30 - 50% more ....".

[Mike Hawkins]

Oh that would be Rockfords Craig?

I stopped buying their magnums when the mark-up versus 750ml was out of kilter with my wine buying logic.

I still have a dozen various magnums and have presented many more. The 98 BP magnum convincing me finally of the quality of that vintage and how it finally pipped the 96 vintage for me. 96 versus 98 BP Magnum lunch I recall!

So it was $80 maximum and maybe less for a BP 98 magnum and $28 for 750ml. I recall being flabbergasted at the increase of pricing for magnums a few years later at Stonewalllers

The more I try SA Shiraz, the more sure I am for my palate (at least), that 98 is a much better vintage than 96. Ten years ago I may not have said that. And for that matter, I used to prefer 91 over 90, but I’ve definitely changed my mind over the past decade. 1990 was always been a show pony vintage but now it’s accompanied by a metaphoric PhD and street cred. A superb vintage and the best of the 90s for mine.

[mjs]

Not sure whether to post here or in "what are you drinking now", but this thread won out.

Not quite owned and cellared since release, but I acquired 3 x 1997 Majella Malleea on the secondary market a few years ago and put them in the cellar (not quite climate controlled). Apparently with provenance, but clearly no way to be 100% sure. Anyway, the first two bottles were quite good but they perhaps seemed a little tired tbh. Finally had the last bottle last week and it was a revelation, much better that the other two. This bottle was vibrant and beautifully aged at the same time. Bit of cedary notes and fine softened tannins, beautiful fruit in red/black and plum spectrums, just well integrated and beautiful to savour the aroma in the glass, went back to it again and again. Perfect drinking from a favourite blend!

Have also been enjoying some 2004 Balnaves Cabernet recently, sourced from CD from Doug Balnaves' private cellar, really enjoyable Coonawarra cab.

[JamieAdelaide]

There are so many variables in ageing wine. What I have found interesting by paying attention to my drinking now, is by taking out this one significant variable ( cellaring ) it introduces others. Your one great bottle out of three case in point Malcom. Are the other two bottles that were OK cellaring or cork or combination of both? This is suggesting previous provenance could be in question.

Couple of things I’ve found thus far.

-Australian wines age well. They don’t just become old as perfect provenance preserves primary fruit characteristics throughout a long life. I think of the process of cellaring properly as a Fine Wine experiment. Fine and refined structural evolution and fruit complexity. Tertiary characteristics are a sign of an wine past it or poorly stored. My experience abroad is a lot of badly stored wines pass as “mature” fine wine when loaded with tertiary notes.

- Screw Cap is a whole new ball game in how you prepare and how you appreciate aged wine. Variation is still in place. There is sometimes a lag where fruit is primary whereas tannins resolved. Sort of a odd flabby experience despite acidity being fine ( or added ).

- Taking away the cellaring variable I’ve noted other phenomenon. One being an issue with Barolo and Barbaresco where they premox in adolescence- heavy browning and fruit development. Rest of a case may be fine. Is it cork failure or something else? Lack of sulphur? IDK.

[JamieAdelaide]

Before COVID I took a six pack of 2000 Langi Shiraz to Hong Kong which I had carefully cellared since release. I have a penchant for Langi Shiraz pre-2000’s as the Shiraz expression could be electrifyingly complex. I recall the epiphanies of 80’s Langi Shiraz when drank in the 90’s. Wow! So this is wine and complexity.

Anyways the 2000’s were super and on-form. Perhaps it wasn’t Rhone like but it wooed the crowd as it wasn’t a ripe Shiraz milkshake prevalent at the time.

Anyways there’s a lot of 2000 Langi Shiraz at auction at the moment so I bought a bottle to see if provenance OK before getting a six pack. Nope! Here’s a cooked wine of appalling provenance. The cork looked fantastic. No evidence of seepage. I was expecting a dance of wild black fruits, pepper, clove and savouries. Nope it was porty and baked. Structure was in place but the fruit cooked.

Nothing like the delightful six I took to HK. We should bring back capital punishment for asses that don’t store great wine properly. There’s dozens and dozens of these cooked Langis about.

[phillisc]

I would say that your post reflects a lot of what goes on in the second hand market, not only how wines are stored, but there are certain players in the auction scene that treat selling wine like any other products, bricks, toilet paper etc.
Cheers Craig

[JamieAdelaide]

A couple this week. A Henschke Mt Edelstone 1994 from an unopened six pack. Stood up for a week and popped and poured. The 94 took a decade to deliver much interest in its austere and extracted style. Now beyond peak the wine is very similar to the 1990. Black pepper, black fruits a little bacon fat, shedding flesh with age and a suppleness that perfect cellaring and age delivers. Grossly underestimated cellaring potential were the Henschke wines of the 90’s upon release. An indisputable Australian classic.

I had a big 3kg Southern Rock Lobster with a Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay 2005. At hand a Jean Noel Gagnard Batard Montrachet 2007 which was tipped by N4Sir to be the better match. He was right on. The Leeuwin was Californian-like without the alcohol and flamboyance. A great wine, loaded with golden yellow fruit and palate sweetness neatly offset by balancing acidity. The BM was perfect with the lobster it’s more restrained and higher acidity style. Geez it’s nerve-wracking open Grand Cru Burgundy. Could sell it for a small fortune but if it’s corked what regrets! I wish Felix still here to chat about Leeuwin v GC Burg. This vintage certainly not a credible alternative at age!

[phillisc]

I regret not keeping a few 94 Mt Eds, birth year for one of the kids...all gone now.
I thought for a moment when a couple of lots came up last year, it was either Wickham's or Oddbin's who had two unopened six packs of the 94s...with buyers premium went for about $1200 each...never mind, release price would have been about $25
Cheers Craig

[JamieAdelaide]

Unopened six packs make you feel old. The wines come out in mint condition, dust free and with a freshness. Then you take a look at how you yourself are travelling after 25 years

[mjs]

Unopened six packs make you feel old. The wines come out in mint condition, dust free and with a freshness. Then you take a look at how you yourself are travelling after 25 years

In my case, Wynns BL cab, Pennies Bins 389, 128 and 407, some of which have been tucked away for 20-ish years. A now half full wooden crate six pack of Bin90A is another, sitting there for nearly 30 years. Don’t have six packs of this one, but Wynns JR first release vintage was 40 years ago, having some from release time in the cellar does make you feel old!

[JamieAdelaide]

A few Wynn’s John Riddoch from perfect cellaring. They were all up a few notches on my secondary market purchases of the same vintages, for a JR vertical in HK.

Perhaps Ian can step in with more comprehensive notes and experience with the wines. I’ve had blocked sinus for a few weeks due heavy cold.

1990 John Riddoch- I thought this a beast just entering a long window for my palate. Developed at the edges yet with a powerful core that will drive it for decades.

1993 John Riddoch- I’d say pretty underrated. Lots happening and perhaps a little flimsier that the best vintages. Being a regular drinker of world-wide Cabernet with all the imperfection that can present, the 93 JR was very appealing in its quirkiness and unique point of reference for the Coonawarra.

1996 John Riddoch- The density of this wine was my lasting impression. I reckon it needs a decade. One for the ages. Complexity will keep coming in the years ahead.

1998 John Riddoch- Aromatic complexity and in a firm structural casing with finesse. Again a beast within, happy with more cellar time.

[phillisc]

Thanks for the notes, like the 86, and after the finally jagging a good one, I find the 90 equally polarising. I have had a few singles and think there is a case as well, but most have been underwhelming, and a little thin. Admittedly have not had a a 90 for about 5 years. Agree with the 93 the "lesser' vintages can be very good, I am very impressed with 99. Haven't had a 96 or 98 for more than a decade now, but appears to be no rush here.

Cheers Craig

[JamieAdelaide]

You should sell your 1990’s then.

I’m not a technical Cabernet lover. I don’t mind a bit of this and that happening. I guess that’s why I often found the greatest Bordeaux amazing and boring at the same time.