Just one more from me (though not sure it will be unpopular here) - Napa Valley Cabernet is, not only terrible value for money, but not even particularly good.
asajoseph wrote:Just one more from me (though not sure it will be unpopular here) - Napa Valley Cabernet is, not only terrible value for money, but not even particularly good.
Value is generally poor, agree. And I’m sure there’s a lot of overpriced parkerised rubbish. But the good ones are extremely good indeed, closest to top Bordeaux outside Bordeaux. Had a Pride 98 on Friday night, lovely wine.
asajoseph wrote:Just one more from me (though not sure it will be unpopular here) - Napa Valley Cabernet is, not only terrible value for money, but not even particularly good.
I agree about the poor value since the price has been driven up by well-heeled US buyers and the exchange rate but cannot agree about them being not being good.
There are not many Napa cabs in my cellar for the simple reason that the good wines have never afforded good value for most of my cellaring career. I have a few Napa cabs that date back to my early days of collecting when prices were better and a few new ones that I have snapped up as a result of their being severly discounted. I'm talking Robert Craig, Stuhlmuller, Turnbull, and St Clement, all $30 and less if you can believe it. However, they present another problem, they'll never get to be old enough for my liking.
asajoseph wrote:Just one more from me (though not sure it will be unpopular here) - Napa Valley Cabernet is, not only terrible value for money, but not even particularly good.
Agree and disagree.
In AU..absolute terrible value. In the US, reasonable value in some cases...very expensive in others but I'm not sure they represent terrible value given the quality.
Disagree on the quality...overall it is very good. Styles are across the board from old school lighter cabs to modern dark, super full bodied cabs...On the high end they compete with the best wines in the world. While I think there are far too many milkshake type cabs out of Napa now, plenty are not but in either case, the quality of the wine is very high...
yep, 100% agree. Napa Cabs are the best in the World outside Bordeaux, and can certainly compete with even high-level Bordeaux more often than not. I am not a fan of US pinot, but they certainly got the cab stuff right.
value? yep, not very good, but then again, Penfolds 707 is priced as much as all but a few of the cults from California.
Still, everyone here can put forward their opinions, I love reading them, and agree this is a fantastic thread!!!!
asajoseph wrote:Just one more from me (though not sure it will be unpopular here) - Napa Valley Cabernet is, not only terrible value for money, but not even particularly good.
Hah, maybe more unpopular than I thought!
The only wines I particularly get on with are Stags Leap Wine Cellars. I've tried a few others from across the spectrum (never a Screaming Eagle, but I've had a few vintages of Harlan Estate and Monte Bello), and I've found so most of them to be over-extracted & one dimensional. Main caveat I suppose is that they've all been quite young - though I've also heard stories of top end Napa Cabs falling apart in the cellar rather than aging gracefully.
That said, I've not tried as many as others here will have (looking at you Mahmood), and given the scarcity & cost I don't think I'll be buying any more any time soon.
Chuck wrote:I don't get Pinot Noir although I've never had a Burgundy and probably never will.
Not a comment on whether or not I agree, but I'm not sure how you've managed to avoid ever trying a Burgundy wine!
EDIT: Actually, I will comment on this...
I do, sort of, get where you're coming from. I don't really 'get' a lot of Pinots. I think a lot of them are overrated and overpriced. I get the 'pinot experience' that people describe from other wines (e.g. Nebbiolos). That said, there have been a few (and I mean a very few) that have been sensational. More misses than hits though, and not enough for me to start spending my limited $$$ on high end Burgundy, but I do see how you can fall in love with it.
Ian S wrote:I rarely enjoy Brunello di Montalcino, typically preferring the bonier profile of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano, to the richer profile of Brunello
sjw_11 wrote:In the right moment, a chilled rose can be absolutely sublime.
AGREE, but not Aussie Rose.
AGREE, except for Aussie Rosé made from Nebbiolo where I DISAGREE. It's a completely different beast to the usual Aussie stuff. They're very dry and savoury with lots of complexity and no "lolly water" element (which I detest even in small amounts). I think the 2017's Rosé's from Adelina, Domenica and Latta are excellent.
I have had some amazing aussie Rose's over summer and they've been amazing, tends to be the the non SA producers. My favourites, Latta and Pret a Rose
Polymer wrote:Agreed. US Pinot is very meh...Some ok Oregon ones but most are meh...Some fantastic Chardonnay out of Oregon though....
Try Littorai, duMol, Copain. They are Burgundy level pricey though...
I've had Littorai...they're ok....Same with something like Wind Gap....same with ABC...but they're more of the exception than the norm...and while I like trying them here or there or bringing them for someone in AU to try, I don't know if I'd ever buy them to drink for myself..
asajoseph wrote:Just one more from me (though not sure it will be unpopular here) - Napa Valley Cabernet is, not only terrible value for money, but not even particularly good.
Hah, maybe more unpopular than I thought!
The only wines I particularly get on with are Stags Leap Wine Cellars. I've tried a few others from across the spectrum (never a Screaming Eagle, but I've had a few vintages of Harlan Estate and Monte Bello), and I've found so most of them to be over-extracted & one dimensional. Main caveat I suppose is that they've all been quite young - though I've also heard stories of top end Napa Cabs falling apart in the cellar rather than aging gracefully.
That said, I've not tried as many as others here will have (looking at you Mahmood), and given the scarcity & cost I don't think I'll be buying any more any time soon.
Ridge Zins, on the other hand...
Harlan straddles that level of ripe and overripe. They hit a very perfect level of ripeness..great balance and structure...Harlan can compete with any of the top 1st Growths...on any given day. Monte Bello is pretty old school and definitely not overripe or one dimensional...
Granted, if you've tried them when they're too young, Ridge MB is pretty structured..but far from being overripe..
I don't see any more classical Napa cabs falling apart...the ones I would question are the ones that are very very dark fruited and monolithic...so something like Colgin....
JamieBahrain wrote:I get to drink a lot of Cal cabs in verticals with my wine group. They are often 70's and 80's wines and sourced by friends in the industry.
I can understand some aversion to modern Cal cabs but I really enjoy these older styles. Brilliant wine
Indeed, one only has to look at their record in the Judgement of Paris tastings.
Polymer wrote:Agreed. US Pinot is very meh...Some ok Oregon ones but most are meh...Some fantastic Chardonnay out of Oregon though....
Try Littorai, duMol, Copain. They are Burgundy level pricey though...
I've had Littorai...they're ok....Same with something like Wind Gap....same with ABC...but they're more of the exception than the norm...and while I like trying them here or there or bringing them for someone in AU to try, I don't know if I'd ever buy them to drink for myself..
Help me understand - what Australian or NZ Pinots do you rate?
Wizz wrote:
Try Littorai, duMol, Copain. They are Burgundy level pricey though...
I've had Littorai...they're ok....Same with something like Wind Gap....same with ABC...but they're more of the exception than the norm...and while I like trying them here or there or bringing them for someone in AU to try, I don't know if I'd ever buy them to drink for myself..
Help me understand - what Australian or NZ Pinots do you rate?
Not many . Just because I consider US Pinot meh doesn't mean I think AU or NZ is any better....
I like Gippsland and Geelong from an AU pinot standpoint....generally they're more pinot like. So producers like Bass, Lethbridge, By Farr...Bannockburn....From NZ there is a large number of passable pinots simply because they tend to have good acidity and a lighter body. Escarpment has both ones I think are decent and ones I dislike...
I can pretty much say the same thing for any other region outside of Burgundy...
Wizz wrote:
Try Littorai, duMol, Copain. They are Burgundy level pricey though...
I've had Littorai...they're ok....Same with something like Wind Gap....same with ABC...but they're more of the exception than the norm...and while I like trying them here or there or bringing them for someone in AU to try, I don't know if I'd ever buy them to drink for myself..
Help me understand - what Australian or NZ Pinots do you rate?
Not many . Just because I consider US Pinot meh doesn't mean I think AU or NZ is any better....
I prefer Gippsland and Geelong from an AU pinot standpoint....generally they're more pinot like. So producers like Bass, Lethbridge, By Farr...Bannockburn....From NZ there is a large number of passable pinots simply because they tend to have good acidity and a lighter body - they are fruit forward but not necessarily overripe (although many do). Escarpment has both ones I think are decent and ones I dislike...
In the end, all I'm doing is trying to find an alternative to Burgundy but easier to find and a better price point.
Polymer wrote:
I've had Littorai...they're ok....Same with something like Wind Gap....same with ABC...but they're more of the exception than the norm...and while I like trying them here or there or bringing them for someone in AU to try, I don't know if I'd ever buy them to drink for myself..
Help me understand - what Australian or NZ Pinots do you rate?
Not many . Just because I consider US Pinot meh doesn't mean I think AU or NZ is any better....
I prefer Gippsland and Geelong from an AU pinot standpoint....generally they're more pinot like. So producers like Bass, Lethbridge, By Farr...Bannockburn....From NZ there is a large number of passable pinots simply because they tend to have good acidity and a lighter body - they are fruit forward but not necessarily overripe (although many do). Escarpment has both ones I think are decent and ones I dislike...
In the end, all I'm doing is trying to find an alternative to Burgundy but easier to find and a better price point.
Trying to get my head around your descriptors and styles of New World Pinot
which red burgundy makers do you respect the style of from tasting experience?
If by challenging you mean I said lighter body...I think that has to be in context of the wine itself. So in the case of NZ Pinot, they're quite ripe from a fruit standpoint, but many can be lighter in body and have more acidity than many from AU. I think a lot of Aussies think NZs are fruit bombs..and some can be..but as a general statement I think they are more fruit forward but with a better texture than AU Pinot...with fewer sun burnt skin flavors...
To answer your question about Burgundy...I dont' think it is as straightforward as some where they can just name a producer and like it top to bottom (generally). ..I prefer Nuits rather than Beaune in general..and Beaunes tend to be a bit riper and significantly more tannic..and the general mouthfeel is lighter more effortless for Nuits.
Producer wise..depends on the wine...I find that producers that tend to be bigger and riper (in Burgundy Terms) can often have a very enjoyable village wine because the style fits in with the generally less ripe grapes based on location....So for example, if you take Vosne or Chambolle from two producers like JJ Confuron or Mugneret..both of which can be pretty heavy at the GC level...their village wines can be quite enjoyable whereas I'd probably not want to get anything from them at the GC level.
Rousseau and Leroy tend to be great top to bottom...I don't have enough experience with Leroy to have strong opinions other than the wines have been great from what little I've had. Rousseau I have had some that were too ripe when young...but turn absolutely fantastic with some age. I think his Gevrey can be both good and very ok..I think it is overpriced.
I like Hubert Lignier in general..
I like Dujac in general.
From a value standpoint I think Stephen Magnien can be good.
I like lesser regional Villaine wines..I think they have intensity and ripeness of a 1er cru but not the price (and not the complexity).
I like Chevillon with age...or in higher acid years because in general tend to shy away from NSG...so I like NSG from 96 and 08 more so than other years...as a general statement not just with Chevillon..
Cathiard can be very good..sometimes too soft though...
Maison en Belles Lies can be good value.
There are a ton of producers I like but that doesn't mean I like everything from them....I also tend to prefer 1er over GCs in general..but the magical moments have almost all been GC and have generally come with the producer can get that intensity but not the weight....which is almost the same for me when it comes to White Burgundy where I want the intensity but with good acidity...
Polymer wrote:If by challenging you mean I said lighter body...I think that has to be in context of the wine itself. So in the case of NZ Pinot, they're quite ripe from a fruit standpoint, but many can be lighter in body and have more acidity than many from AU. I think a lot of Aussies think NZs are fruit bombs..and some can be..but as a general statement I think they are more fruit forward but with a better texture than AU Pinot...with fewer sun burnt skin flavors...
To answer your question about Burgundy...I dont' think it is as straightforward as some where they can just name a producer and like it top to bottom (generally). ..I prefer Nuits rather than Beaune in general..and Beaunes tend to be a bit riper and significantly more tannic..and the general mouthfeel is lighter more effortless for Nuits.
Producer wise..depends on the wine...I find that producers that tend to be bigger and riper (in Burgundy Terms) can often have a very enjoyable village wine because the style fits in with the generally less ripe grapes based on location....So for example, if you take Vosne or Chambolle from two producers like JJ Confuron or Mugneret..both of which can be pretty heavy at the GC level...their village wines can be quite enjoyable whereas I'd probably not want to get anything from them at the GC level.
Rousseau and Leroy tend to be great top to bottom...I don't have enough experience with Leroy to have strong opinions other than the wines have been great from what little I've had. Rousseau I have had some that were too ripe when young...but turn absolutely fantastic with some age. I think his Gevrey can be both good and very ok..I think it is overpriced.
I like Hubert Lignier in general..
I like Dujac in general.
From a value standpoint I think Stephen Magnien can be good.
I like lesser regional Villaine wines..I think they have intensity and ripeness of a 1er cru but not the price (and not the complexity).
I like Chevillon with age...or in higher acid years because in general tend to shy away from NSG...so I like NSG from 96 and 08 more so than other years...as a general statement not just with Chevillon..
Cathiard can be very good..sometimes too soft though...
Maison en Belles Lies can be good value.
There are a ton of producers I like but that doesn't mean I like everything from them....I also tend to prefer 1er over GCs in general..but the magical moments have almost all been GC and have generally come with the producer can get that intensity but not the weight....which is almost the same for me when it comes to White Burgundy where I want the intensity but with good acidity...
Try naming some Burgundy that gave you that spiritual experience/Holy Grail like
I just don’t understand your style when you describe NZ vs Australian
A recent 2000 Leroy CDR made me visualise purple violets- I struggle to overanalyse great Burgundy as it is so balanced
. Just because I consider US Pinot meh doesn't mean I think AU or NZ is any better....
