What is the most egregious wine pricing you have seen?

[Mahmoud Ali]

Amusing, but more appropos would be the following from Monty Python, with someone as The Black Knight:

https://youtu.be/-6VTci1Bunk

Cheers ................ Mahmoud.

[sjw_11]

1) any given bottle of said wine may be less than the quote "weaker" wine due to all kinds of issues (case in point, the discussed brettanomyces in 1998 HoG.... Would you really prefer that to a clean, but lesser wine?). This is true with all wines, but the opportunity cost is disproportionately high with a marquee brand;

Interesting case in point Sam. Have you tried the wine? Commentary is now polarizing.

No I haven't tried it... I have just seen the commentary you mention. Perhaps I should have couched it with a "what if"

[sjw_11]

Returning the original topic... when Mahmoud mentioned the 2004 St Henri I wondered if that was actually still available and I found it online here in the UK for £82 all in or about $140 at the current AUD/GBP exchange rate...

[Mahmoud Ali]

There's nothing I've seen that comes close to HofG at $50 and it appears the same for you. I'd suggest if you double that number you may be on a roll.

Wendouree shiraz is a special consideration but more accurately it hits that $100 mark and even then, it's a very polarizng wine. Dead Arm? I'm not having much luck .

You don't have to see it but some of us do and we're entitled to our opinion. I've already mentioned several wines for which I paid $50 and less that I think are excellent wines, and even at double the price I would much rather have eight bottles to a single bottle of Hill of Grace. Right now, in Edmonton, the Hill of Grace costs about $800 and more. For $80 I can get the Duval Eligo and I would much rather have ten of them. The Duval wines are excellent, one of the highlights of the Artisans of the Barossa tasting that I attended at the Customs House in Sydney. John Duval had three wines on tasting and all were excellent.

As for Wendouree, I was slapped on the wrist in this forum for saying that it an expensive wine that didn't qualify as a QPR and had to apologise when told that on the mailing list they are available for $50 or thereabouts.

Mahmoud.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Returning the original topic... when Mahmoud mentioned the 2004 St Henri I wondered if that was actually still available and I found it online here in the UK for £82 all in or about $140 at the current AUD/GBP exchange rate...

Are you tempted? I was extremely lucky a few months ago when I found two bottles of the 2004 St Henri sitting on a store shelf for the mouthwatering price of C$52 - it made up for my regret in not buying it back when it was C$45 many years ago. Of course at this price it is not an example of egregious pricing.

Mahmoud.

[Ian S]

On the subject of the Hill of Grace let me say that there is no doubt that the Hill of Grace is a very fine wine, and I don’t think that anybody here is disputing that, I’m certainly not. The subject of the thread is egregious pricing. It seems to me that you are heavily invested in the Hill of Grace and particularly sensitive about the reputation and standing of this wine. Frankly it is great that you sing the praises of this wine, as do people who sing the praises the Grange. However even those who like and admire the Grange are able to criticize Penfold’s ambitious pricing.

The Hill of Grace is no doubt an iconic wine with a lovely location next to the Gnadenburg Church and an equally evocative name. When I last visited the Barossa I made a pilgrimage to the vineytard. Though it is considered a single vineyard wine it is, as alluded to by another poster here, made of different blocks of vines planted in different years. The current state of the vineyard and the quality of the vines is in large measure the result of the work of Pru Henschke, the wife of Stephen, and the gnarled vines on the block in front of the church must surely contribute some defining character to the Hill of Grace wine.

It is very possible that a Hill of Grace might reveal itself to someone familiar with the wine in a blind tasting. It is also true that with age all wines trend towards a singularity and the particular characteristics of a younger wine becomes less apparent. It is also fair to say that an individual might always prefer the taste profile of a Hill of Grace or its Barossa counterparts in a blind tasting. Others, like myself, might prefer the profile of a Hunter style to any South Australian shiraz. Therefore in a blind tasting of excellent but equivalent old Australian shirazes, any of them might rightly end up being the Wine of the Night, depending on the vintage, the age of the bottle, and the preferences of the tasters. That is the pleasure of wines and blind tasting. This postulation is not about demoting the Hill of Grace and you shouldn’t see it that way.

Once again, the subject of the thread is about egregious pricing, not the inherent quality of the Hill of Grace, Grange, The Laird, or any other iconic but expensive wines.

Cheers ............. Mahmoud.

PS: Having mentioned the talent of Prue Henschke, I should also mention Stephen Henschke’s contribution. He took over wine making from his father in 1979 and word in the Barossa has it that the winemaking improved. I know that at cellar door, in a range of back vintages, I noticed a qualitative difference between the 1978 and 1979 vintage.

<Doffs cap in appreciation>

[Mahmoud Ali]

Thanks for noticing Ian, much appreciated.

Mahmoud.

[Ian S]

Returning the original topic... when Mahmoud mentioned the 2004 St Henri I wondered if that was actually still available and I found it online here in the UK for £82 all in or about $140 at the current AUD/GBP exchange rate...

I'm guessing you're thinking that's great in comparison to Aus prices. If so I really shouldn't tell you the price I got mine for, as it might incite a riot.

[sjw_11]

Returning the original topic... when Mahmoud mentioned the 2004 St Henri I wondered if that was actually still available and I found it online here in the UK for £82 all in or about $140 at the current AUD/GBP exchange rate...

I'm guessing you're thinking that's great in comparison to Aus prices. If so I really shouldn't tell you the price I got mine for, as it might incite a riot.

No I thought it was ridiculously expensive... I bought the fabled 2010 the other year for about $70 Aussie despite the 100+++ ratings....

[Ian S]

You never know with Penfolds price escalation

[sjw_11]

Bugger me, for fun I just had a quick look on Langton's price guide to see what the 2010's are going for... ~$130/bottle even net of the sellers premium... crickey.

[tarija]

Armand Rousseau's wines are getting a bit ridiculous at the retail markups, unless I was misinformed below.

Walked into a store the other day and Rousseau Chambertin 2014 was $1000 (store keeper advised this price - there was no price tag). All sold out.

A search on wine-searcher reveals one prominent online retailer selling for $2499, others between $1818-$1900.

[Dang]

We had our Gevrey-Chambertin tasting not long ago and the WOTN was the 1991 Rousseau (see my thread on Chambertin Grand Cru). This Rousseau was bought by the club for CA125 in 1993, but the internet shows right now an average price of almost CA5000, an increase of 40X! I told my wife that was her chance to taste what the rich and famous drink with their foie gras. As I mentioned we were taken by that "funky" nose but there was so much complexity that the taste became a maze that one can get lost in. Too much of a good thing? And we did taste the other seven Chambertin Grand Cru. Egregious is in the mind (or the taste) of the beholder!
Just for comparison, we had the 08 Wynns BL Cab with our Vietnamese pork sausage dinner. This has been stored using my 15 degrees method for the past 6 mths. Certainly ready to drink with lovely firm tannins indicating some further ageing. The bottle costs me CA25! Using the money I would earn by selling the Rousseau I could have the Wynns BL once a week for a long time. Wait a minute, I am already too old!
Cheers!

[sjw_11]

I told my wife that was her chance to taste what the rich and famous drink with their foie gras.

... what do you mean? Its always Sauternes (d'Yquem of course) with Fois Gras and Burgundy with the duck course. Do keep up.

Wait a minute, I am already too old!

Reminds me of Len Evan's Theory of Capacity, taken here from a speech by Brian Croser:


"Len made his contribution to the academic understanding of wine through the 10 points of his Theory of Capacity which I will enunciate in his memory,

•There is an awful lot of wine in the world, but there is also a lot of awful wine.
•No sensible person drinks to excess, therefore any one person can only drink a certain amount in a lifetime.
•There are countless flavours, nuances, shades of wine; endless varieties, regions, styles. You have neither the time nor the capacity to try them all.
•To make the most of the time left to you, you must start by calculating your future capacity. One bottle a day is 365 bottles a year. If your life expectancy is another 30 years there are only 10,000-odd bottles ahead of you.
•People who say "You can't drink the good stuff all of the time" are talking rubbish. You must drink good stuff all the time. Every time you drink a bottle of inferior wine, it's like smashing a superior bottle against the wall. The pleasure is lost forever - you can't get that bottle back.
•There are people who build up huge cellars, most of which they have no hope of drinking. They are foolish in overestimating their capacity but they err on the right side and their friends love them.
•There are also people who don't want to drink good wine and are happy with the cheapies. I forgive them. There are others who are content with beer and spirits. I can't worry about everybody.
•Wine is not meant to be enjoyed for its own sake; it is the key to love and laughter with friends, to the enjoyment of food, beauty and humour and art and music. Its rewards are far beyond its cost.
•What part is wine of your life? Ten percent? Ergo, 10 percent of your income should be spent on wine.
•These principles should be applied to other phases of life. A disciple kissed a beautiful young lady and she demurred. He was aghast and said, "Don't get the wrong idea. I've worked out I can only make love another 1343 times. I'm bloody sure I'm not wasting one on you.""

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/ ... ut=printer

[sjw_11]

From Domaine A... would you really pay over $300 smackeroos for a 17yr old Tassie Pinot??

"RDP" Pinot Noir

2000

$320.00

[Mahmoud Ali]

Reminds me of Len Evan's Theory of Capacity, taken here from a speech by Brian Croser:


"Len made his contribution to the academic understanding of wine through the 10 points of his Theory of Capacity which I will enunciate in his memory,

•There is an awful lot of wine in the world, but there is also a lot of awful wine.
•No sensible person drinks to excess, therefore any one person can only drink a certain amount in a lifetime.
•There are countless flavours, nuances, shades of wine; endless varieties, regions, styles. You have neither the time nor the capacity to try them all.
•To make the most of the time left to you, you must start by calculating your future capacity. One bottle a day is 365 bottles a year. If your life expectancy is another 30 years there are only 10,000-odd bottles ahead of you.
•People who say "You can't drink the good stuff all of the time" are talking rubbish. You must drink good stuff all the time. Every time you drink a bottle of inferior wine, it's like smashing a superior bottle against the wall. The pleasure is lost forever - you can't get that bottle back.
•There are people who build up huge cellars, most of which they have no hope of drinking. They are foolish in overestimating their capacity but they err on the right side and their friends love them.
•There are also people who don't want to drink good wine and are happy with the cheapies. I forgive them. There are others who are content with beer and spirits. I can't worry about everybody.
•Wine is not meant to be enjoyed for its own sake; it is the key to love and laughter with friends, to the enjoyment of food, beauty and humour and art and music. Its rewards are far beyond its cost.
•What part is wine of your life? Ten percent? Ergo, 10 percent of your income should be spent on wine.
•These principles should be applied to other phases of life. A disciple kissed a beautiful young lady and she demurred. He was aghast and said, "Don't get the wrong idea. I've worked out I can only make love another 1343 times. I'm bloody sure I'm not wasting one on you.""

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/ ... ut=printer

I recall reading this somewhere and am happy to read it again.

Thanks ............... Mahmoud.

[Ozzie W]

2013 Glaetzer-Dixon La Judith Shiraz @ $220
Supposed to be a really good wine, but still, $220 for Tassie Shiraz?

[Dang]

Thanks sjw for the words of wisdom. I am at the age where wisdom does not mean much, but I do want to try someting new. Belonging to a wine club allows us to try stuff that we would neither have the time nor the money to acquire.
Needless to say, foie gras only means figuratively things we might not indulge any time. But Sauternes is only a classical match! Here we Canadians could most likely try BC Icewine, preferably riesling based. The foie is slightly seared with some twigs of chervil. My chef even suggests my Best's Thomson family for suitability. On the other hand, the 91 Rousseau with its complexity might overwhelm the foie. To each its own taste! My next duck would be paired with the 01 Yarra Yering #1.
Cheers.

[tarija]

More egregious pricing - whether importer or retailer, I don't know. Frequently read anecdotes of good value back vintages in US, UK and Hong Kong, however Australian importers/retailers must think Australian wine consumers are nuts.

Have got a "special offer" for a bunch of back vintage Rioja - an example:
- Marques de Riscal Reserva 1996: $310 (current vintage 2011: $30)
- Marques de Murrieta Reserva 1996: $175 (current vintage 2010: $30)
- La Rioja Alta 904 1994: $760 (current vintage 2004: $90)

Etc. these are also not ex-cellar as well, but from private cellars.

[sjw_11]

Thanks sjw for the words of wisdom. I am at the age where wisdom does not mean much, but I do want to try someting new. Belonging to a wine club allows us to try stuff that we would neither have the time nor the money to acquire.
Needless to say, foie gras only means figuratively things we might not indulge any time. But Sauternes is only a classical match! Here we Canadians could most likely try BC Icewine, preferably riesling based. The foie is slightly seared with some twigs of chervil. My chef even suggests my Best's Thomson family for suitability. On the other hand, the 91 Rousseau with its complexity might overwhelm the foie. To each its own taste! My next duck would be paired with the 01 Yarra Yering #1.
Cheers.

Dang, I just realised it might not have been clear but that was meant to be a joke about the foie gras and sauternes!

yes it is a classical match but I am definitely not fussy when it comes to trying different pairings, or indeed just drinking what I want to drink regardless of the food (unless it completely clashes)

I must say, BC Icewine with seared foie gras sounds rather good.

[Mahmoud Ali]

[quote="tarija"]Have got a "special offer" for a bunch of back vintage Rioja - an example:
- Marques de Riscal Reserva 1996: $310 (current vintage 2011: $30)
- Marques de Murrieta Reserva 1996: $175 (current vintage 2010: $30)
- La Rioja Alta 904 1994: $760 (current vintage 2004: $90)

Etc. these are also not ex-cellar as well, but from private cellars.[/quote]

Those are most certainly egregious prices, considering that 1996 was not considered a particulary good year. The private purveyors are hoping to make a kill. It so happens that I have a magnum of the 1996 Riscal Reseva. It is a wine I just cannot remember aquiring.

Mahmoud.

[felixp21]

well, I have just so many examples, it is hard to choose a winner.
However, I might just go for this one:

2015 Domaine Leroux Clos de la Roche magnum.
I purchased three in HK for $496 AUD a magnum. Exactly the same wine is being sold, or a least offered, retail in Australia for $2429.68

For all you "tax haven, poor Aussie importers/retailers and their taxes", let me remind you that the WET and Duty are payable on arrival of the goods, and are calculated on the ex-cellar cost, plus cost of transport and cost of insurance. So before you say that "oh yea, but there is 29+5 +10 % GST taken out of the $2429.68, of course that is incorrect. My reasonable estimation of the ex-cellar price would be about $390 AUD ex-cellar (but probably lower), and the all-up taxable amount would be WET plus Duty of around $136 (34% of $400), and then 10% GST on the $2429.68 (i.e. $243). Total tax payable of around $379.
Round it up to $400 if you want to be really generous.

In some circumstances, there can be an import GST due at time of arrival, again this would be 10% of the landed cost ($40), but that comes off the final GST anyway, so the figures are the same.

Not a bad margin, that one!!!!!!!!!

[Ian S]

One senses that overseas wines were a rarity in the country for many years, that some sellers got used to pricing them as rarities. I get the impression with the movement in exchange rates over the last 5-10 years, that much more overseas wine now comes in, and a few sellers may need to adjust their ambitions?

[felixp21]

One senses that overseas wines were a rarity in the country for many years, that some sellers got used to pricing them as rarities. I get the impression with the movement in exchange rates over the last 5-10 years, that much more overseas wine now comes in, and a few sellers may need to adjust their ambitions?

yea, somehow this has evolved in Australia. The importers' margins are laughable, but the Aussie wine-drinking public seems to just grin and bear it. I think it is mainly a lack of knowledge that causes this, and I am guessing the "golden days' for these importers will soon be over as a result of the increasing ease of access of information the internet provides. A couple of importers are notoriously greedy, but in general the margins are too high (with the notable exception of a few really decent ones). The most interesting aspect of this is when you tell a Domaine what their wines are selling for in Australia, they say it isn't true. Then when you get out wine-searcher and prove it to them in front of their eyes, they simply shrug their shoulders. Very short-sighted, but then again, these guys are the opposite to the Bordelaise, and many are still simple farmers.

[sjw_11]

Well, what do you know- it seems Campbell Mattinson and the Wine Front have done the hard yards on this topic for us:

http://www.winefront.com.au/new-250-pin ... he-iceberg

"It started by accident. When news came through that Yering Station had released a new wine at $250 per bottle - named The Scarlett, reviewed here - it occurred to me that there were now many Australian wines with prices through the roof. We all know that Tahbilk has shot its 1860 Vines Shiraz up to $300-ish and that Henschke Hill of Grace Shiraz - the latest is brilliant, if you're curious - has burst north of $800 and that Penfolds Grange is now sky-high, just to name a few. But there are many others. So I set out to compile a list, hoping to find 30 or even 40 examples of Australian current release wines with an asking price of $150 or greater. Just for the sake of argument. As a discussion launcher.

Little did I know that more than 100 wines would make Australia's Most Expensive Wines list.

Of course this list, and discussion, was given a kickalong by the launch of a Tasmanian Shiraz for $220/bottle.

And news that the fantastic new "Melba" Cabernet Sauvignon from De Bortoli - reviewed here - is not $110 as we were first told, but is actually $160. So that will be added to the list too.

There's an argument to say that Australian wine is going nuts right now. And the thing about this kind of behaviour is that it encourages many others to follow suit. When you look at that Australia's Most Expensive Wines list it's remarkable how many of Australia's Best Wines, with track record and loyal following etc, are missing from it. Thankfully."

[swirler]

Maybe these are the price in the overpriced Chinese market and they are being priced the same here so the Chinese don't feel ripped off when they do a Google, sorry, Baidu (or whatever us their CPC-endorsed search engine.) The market for expensive wine is much bigger there I'd have thought. So a few lost sales here will be more than made up by more there as the wine becomes more 'prestigious' (expensive.)

Apologies in advance for the sweeping generations.

[felixp21]

Maybe these are the price in the overpriced Chinese market and they are being priced the same here so the Chinese don't feel ripped off when they do a Google, sorry, Baidu (or whatever us their CPC-endorsed search engine.) The market for expensive wine is much bigger there I'd have thought. So a few lost sales here will be more than made up by more there as the wine becomes more 'prestigious' (expensive.)

Apologies in advance for the sweeping generations.

not sure what you are getting at, but the Chinese wine drinker (and 99.99% of educated people in China, for that matter) would use exactly the same search engine as you. Everyone here uses VPN, and the internet is as free and easy to use as it is in Melbourne.
FWIW, the Bordelaise quickly learnt the very very hard way that you can't even attempt to rip off the Chinese, they are far too astute for that. If any Aussie winemaker thinks he can sell $200 shiraz in China to the "rich and dumb Chinese who'll buy any 97pt wine", he's in for a rude shock. Apart from Grange and 707, very very few premium Aussie wines are sold here. The Chinese will spend their $200 on French wine, almost every time.
and FWIW, French wines cost about the same in China as they do in Australia. That's why no-one buys them in China, they all buy them in HK and ship them one way or another
ever wonder why HK, with a population of 7.5 million, is one of the biggest wine centres and sellers in the World??

[tarija]

importers' margins are laughable, but the Aussie wine-drinking public seems to just grin and bear it. I think it is mainly a lack of knowledge that causes this, and I am guessing the "golden days' for these importers will soon be over as a result of the increasing ease of access of information the internet provides. A couple of importers are notoriously greedy, but in general the margins are too high (with the notable exception of a few really decent ones).

Have spoken to a number of small/medium sized wineries in Australia and a lot love drinking European wines however refuse to pay the huge prices charged here. As such, a lot have banded together and formed buying groups where they buy in Europe, consolidate it, ship it over and then distribute between participants.

[George Krashos]

It is miles cheaper, even in small lots. I bought two bottles of 1er cru burgundy in the US, shipped them here via FedEx, paid WET tax etc and still saved myself AU$100 overall than what I had to pay retail here in Australia.

-- George Krashos

[Ozzie W]

It is miles cheaper, even in small lots. I bought two bottles of 1er cru burgundy in the US, shipped them here via FedEx, paid WET tax etc and still saved myself AU$100 overall than what I had to pay retail here in Australia.

Any concerns about shipping wine that distance using unrefrigerated shipping? Enough issues shipping wines just interstate in Australia, let alone half way around the world.