The Auswine Forum

A gathering in London.
Extremely hot & we had to use ice buckets to cool down the wines. Therefore, the wines were constantly changing - with the need to return the bottles to ice. Very decent pours as only five participants, effectively we had two bites of the cherry - when I left plenty remained.
Shiraz

1994
Deep blood red; ferrous, dusty, straitened; power-packed yet well-proportioned, refreshing acidity, well balanced; lingering. Needs 5 years. 97.
2001
Dark blood red; meaty, peppery, more upfront; punchy, fuller, baked fruit. Powerful, in yer face finish. Needs 5 years. Suspect some heat damage. 91
2002
95
2003
Dark; chunky, beefy; fresh feel to palate, big, weighty; rugged, finishes well. Needs 5 + years. 93

Shiraz/Mataro
1998
Rubied; earthy overtones, Mourvèdre deadens (as so often) the bouquet; iron fist in a velvet glove. Plenty going on & a bonzer finish. Now & next decade. 92
1999
Dark; more restrained on nose; mulled fruit, broad, chunky. Now & next decade. 92
endouree lived up to its exalted reputation & the need for extended aging. Old fashioned in the best sense & the absence of flashiness welcome.

Mark Carrington wrote:A gathering in London.
Extremely hot & we had to use ice buckets to cool down the wines. Therefore, the wines were constantly changing - with the need to return the bottles to ice. Very decent pours as only five participants, effectively we had two bites of the cherry - when I left plenty remained.
Shiraz

1994
Deep blood red; ferrous, dusty, straitened; power-packed yet well-proportioned, refreshing acidity, well balanced; lingering. Needs 5 years. 97.
2001
Dark blood red; meaty, peppery, more upfront; punchy, fuller, baked fruit. Powerful, in yer face finish. Needs 5 years. Suspect some heat damage. 91
2002
95
2003
Dark; chunky, beefy; fresh feel to palate, big, weighty; rugged, finishes well. Needs 5 + years. 93

Shiraz/Mataro
1998
Rubied; earthy overtones, Mourvèdre deadens (as so often) the bouquet; iron fist in a velvet glove. Plenty going on & a bonzer finish. Now & next decade. 92
1999
Dark; more restrained on nose; mulled fruit, broad, chunky. Now & next decade. 92
endouree lived up to its exalted reputation & the need for extended aging. Old fashioned in the best sense & the absence of flashiness welcome.

Mark

Your tasting seems in line with various tastings we have had in sydney. As you may have seen over time the wine are deeply polarizing. Some people love them and some, including myself, find them a little like the Emperors Clothing. Out of every tasting there will be one superb wine and the rest muddling.

For me drinking Wendouree is like my annual game of golf - every so often I will hit an absolute cracker of a shot, straight and true down the fairway, the rest of the time its a matter of focusing on that one good shot to overlook the average shots into the tree. I haven't given up on golf, I just do it once a year.

mark

Mark,

Have you had the more recent vintages? What did you think of those?

It seems like most people that don't like Wendouree throughout their somewhat awkward development, prefer the newer style (at least for drinking now).

To me that also means the newer style is a bit of an unknown quantity and not likely to be like the older style (which may end up being a good thing I don't know). For me, I like a bit of the backwardness...a lot of fine tannins, the high acidity, really savory reddish fruit that is very much way way way back in the background...I don't even mind the nail polish remover smell (acetic acid) that is really prominent in Wendourees that need another 5-10+ years...

The hardest part with Wendouree is knowing when they will emerge from this awkward state..although I think the 20 year suggestion is probably about right for most of them..The problem is that if you really don't like the awkward state at all, when this actually hits a much more evolved state, you just don't know...It might be 30 or 40 years down the line (if ever) when it sheds all of that nail polish..when the tannins really soften up and the acid feels less prominent...

From what I can see...Shiraz Malbecs seem to be the most approachable and the least Wendouree-ish wine...I think the Shiraz Mataros can be quite nice 10-15 years from vintage and go another 10+ years easily...and I think the straight Shiraz comes around just after those and can go another 20 years+ beyond that....Cab Malbecs seem to be pretty good from 1999 and earlier except 98 which needs 10+ more years...2000/2001 are starting to come around as well...Straight Cab seems to be the hardest one to judge (for me)...They seem to be in their shell for the longest and provide the least amount of joy prior to opening up....and of course this is just by my own tastes...for a lot of people that dislike the awkward stage, you might want to add 10+ years to these numbers..

Polymer wrote:Mark,

Have you had the more recent vintages? What did you think of those?

It seems like most people that don't like Wendouree throughout their somewhat awkward development, prefer the newer style (at least for drinking now).

To me that also means the newer style is a bit of an unknown quantity and not likely to be like the older style (which may end up being a good thing I don't know). For me, I like a bit of the backwardness...a lot of fine tannins, the high acidity, really savory reddish fruit that is very much way way way back in the background...I don't even mind the nail polish remover smell (acetic acid) that is really prominent in Wendourees that need another 5-10+ years...

The hardest part with Wendouree is knowing when they will emerge from this awkward state..although I think the 20 year suggestion is probably about right for most of them..The problem is that if you really don't like the awkward state at all, when this actually hits a much more evolved state, you just don't know...It might be 30 or 40 years down the line (if ever) when it sheds all of that nail polish..when the tannins really soften up and the acid feels less prominent...

From what I can see...Shiraz Malbecs seem to be the most approachable and the least Wendouree-ish wine...I think the Shiraz Mataros can be quite nice 10-15 years from vintage and go another 10+ years easily...and I think the straight Shiraz comes around just after those and can go another 20 years+ beyond that....Cab Malbecs seem to be pretty good from 1999 and earlier except 98 which needs 10+ more years...2000/2001 are starting to come around as well...Straight Cab seems to be the hardest one to judge (for me)...They seem to be in their shell for the longest and provide the least amount of joy prior to opening up....and of course this is just by my own tastes...for a lot of people that dislike the awkward stage, you might want to add 10+ years to these numbers..

You may be correct. The only Wendouree I have ever really enjoyed was a mid 90s Cab Malbec that Dave brought to dinner one evening. We recently tried nearly a dozen one night at an offline and sadly none of them excited me enough to make me want to add them to my cellar. I know I have 2 in the cellar being Cab Malbecs. I had really just thought I would try them towards the end of the 2020s. I know it is apples and oranges but way of contrast, an old Mt Langi Shiraz from 2000 i found in the cellar was one of my wines of the year and made me want to go out again and buy shiraz realising just how fantastic old shiraz can be. I just haven't scaled the same heights with Wendouree

I'm always amused by the annual "I got my Wendouree mailer" burst of enthusiasm as I doubt many people every really get to try the wines when they hit their peak or even enter their drinking window.

Mark

Well what has happened in the past is people buy tons of it..then find that they have several cases of each of the last 15 vintages of wine they don't like to drink.

Fortunately for them, I think the strength of Wendouree on the secondary market makes it so they're not actually losing money although it ends up being a pretty lousy investment assuming the owner actually stored it in decent conditions...

I do think wine drinkers outside of AU tend to appreciate Wendouree a lot more than inside of AU. I've shared some with some Berserkers in the US and some people in EU and it tends to be very well appreciated across the board...but even at offlines for Auswine I'd probably only say half the people really enjoy it....

Polymer wrote:
I do think wine drinkers outside of AU tend to appreciate Wendouree a lot more than inside of AU. I've shared some with some Berserkers in the US and some people in EU and it tends to be very well appreciated across the board...but even at offlines for Auswine I'd probably only say half the people really enjoy it....

i would agree with the local sentiment being split, god knows I have tried repeatedly to see what other people see in it. Since I have a roughly 50/50 split with old and new world, I am not sure what the EU tasters see it but some of the French wines can be so undrinkable I suppose anything that is approachable it met with appreciation.

I think your assessment is a bit unfair....Which French wines are undrinkable?

What I’ve seen is they are loved by the diverse old work drinkers - not so much by the Burgundy purists say.

They also need a bit of understanding and preparation. There’s so little about that the anecdotes are too few on how to go about different aeration techniques. Hence the idea of the thread and few tasting events .

Polymer wrote:I think your assessment is a bit unfair....Which French wines are undrinkable?

Most current ‘top’ St. Emilion for starters.

Mark Carrington wrote:

Polymer wrote:I think your assessment is a bit unfair....Which French wines are undrinkable?

Most current ‘top’ St. Emilion for starters.

Can you qualify that a bit more?

Canon not good enough

Mark Carrington wrote:

Polymer wrote:I think your assessment is a bit unfair....Which French wines are undrinkable?

Most current ‘top’ St. Emilion for starters.

This.

Hunter wrote:Canon not good enough

Canon, Cheval Blanc, etc., are a different kettle of fish, but not many of the lesser know GCC and famous 'Parker wines.'

So undrinkable is too ripe or undrinkable is too tannic or undrinkable means they're just junk wines?

.

Unpleasant. Badly made. Out of balance. No freshness at all.

Polymer wrote:

Mark Carrington wrote:

Polymer wrote:I think your assessment is a bit unfair....Which French wines are undrinkable?

Most current ‘top’ St. Emilion for starters.

Can you qualify that a bit more?

Too much alcohol.

And oak.

I don't disagree with most of that...except that rooman likes his bordeaux like that...at least bigger, riper, darker, higher alcohol...from the offlines...

Not to mention his comment was in comparison to New World wines...of which many are exactly as you described as undrinkable....So undrinkable, in his context would be something different than what some might see as problems w/ New World...too ripe, not properly balanced, not enough acid, too much oak, too much alcohol, etc...

It is interesting to check out what some of the Wine Berserkers community think of Wendouree and it's unique style. They seem to be unaminous in their praise of the few bottles that they have tried. I note that the Sydney chapter of the WB's have offered visiting US WB's a number of tastings going back to the early 1990's vintages.

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtop ... e#p2449838

Thx Hacker I’ll have a read . Been banging on about this for years . I think international Syrah / Shiraz palates can be broad - especially when you consider the stylistic differences across the Rhône north and south .

Hacker wrote:It is interesting to check out what some of the Wine Berserkers community think of Wendouree and it's unique style. They seem to be unaminous in their praise of the few bottles that they have tried. I note that the Sydney chapter of the WB's have offered visiting US WB's a number of tastings going back to the early 1990's vintages.

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtop ... e#p2449838

I've met up with some beserkers here and there and Wendouree has always had fairly high praise...

Granted, there is a bit of bias and anticipation there..and the fact that it is so hard to get probably starts Wendouree on a positive...but I think there is a bit more appreciation for the style...

Sorry, better link here: https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/search. ... d%5B0%5D=1
The other link only featured one thread.

Linden Wilkie of the Fine Wine Experience in HKG is a member of my tasting group though he's generally busy looking after the ultra high end of town with amazing verticals of the world's most lauded wines. A couple of other guys of similar ilk here in HKG are big fans of Wendouree. Very experienced palate and it's nice to see his take on Wendouree.

Linden did put on a few Clape Cornas verticals for us a few years ago after Jancis R's slight on Cornas. I cant help but think of the similarites of the two in a number of areas. How best to approach the wines and their quiet popularity then rise in attention.

I can't make a link but for the Wendouree tragics pull up a pew, google below and have a read !


"A.P. Birks Wendouree Shiraz, and the Slow Rhythm of a Clare Classic"

Thanks for that jamie. That was quite an interesting read. 70's vintage Wendourees still going strong. Fantastic stuff.
Looked like an amazing event.
here's the URL btw;
http://www.finewineexperience.com/media/ap- ... ythm-of-a/

Thanks Scotty. I agree. I found it fascinating as Linden is a fresh perspective and captures Wendouree in a different light.

2006 Wendouree Shiraz

From excellent provenance - cork in excellent condition. Visually the wine is starting to brick around the edges. Aromas of menthol, cedar, florals and a touch of gum leaf. Flavours of red berries, earth, iron, graphite, plums, cranberry and cedar. On the palate there is a driving spine of bright acidity which dances on the tongue, backed up with loads of fine mouth coating tannin. The finish was medium to long. Very enjoyable, but polarising for some who prefer a riper style shiraz.

Noting, a guest kindly bought this over for lunch. It was decanted 1.5 hours prior to consuming, then consumed over the next ensuring 2-3 hours. Typically the wine evolved and continued to open up with time, I would have loved to give it more aeration and time. My guest noted the last bottle he had was best on day 2.

Mark Carrington wrote:A gathering in London.
Extremely hot & we had to use ice buckets to cool down the wines. Therefore, the wines were constantly changing - with the need to return the bottles to ice. Very decent pours as only five participants, effectively we had two bites of the cherry - when I left plenty remained.
Shiraz

1994
Deep blood red; ferrous, dusty, straitened; power-packed yet well-proportioned, refreshing acidity, well balanced; lingering. Needs 5 years. 97.
2001
Dark blood red; meaty, peppery, more upfront; punchy, fuller, baked fruit. Powerful, in yer face finish. Needs 5 years. Suspect some heat damage. 91
2002
95
2003
Dark; chunky, beefy; fresh feel to palate, big, weighty; rugged, finishes well. Needs 5 + years. 93

Shiraz/Mataro
1998
Rubied; earthy overtones, Mourvèdre deadens (as so often) the bouquet; iron fist in a velvet glove. Plenty going on & a bonzer finish. Now & next decade. 92
1999
Dark; more restrained on nose; mulled fruit, broad, chunky. Now & next decade. 92
endouree lived up to its exalted reputation & the need for extended aging. Old fashioned in the best sense & the absence of flashiness welcome.

Wendouree wines are not available here in Canada but from Mark's notes I sense that I would very much like them. I can just imagine these: "ferrous", "dusty", "meaty", "peppery", "chunky", "beefy", "earthy overtones", "broad and chunky". Not a mention of chocolate, cocoa, mint, and fruit compote. Sounds fabulous.

Cheers ................. Mahmoud.

A lightning appointment at Wendouree a few days ago, where Lita showed me around - no tastings, but worth doing if only to look at the gnarly old vines. I’m an “initials” mailing list customer, but don’t go anywhere near the limits; generally Shiraz and anything with malbec in it; more recently also buying Shiraz/Mataro. Kirsten was still dealing with orders; Tony was busy with wine work.
Quick stuff, hopefully haven’t misinterpreted Lita

2016 reds are regarded as a return to the typical Wendouree style (like 2006). Lots of drought years apart from the wet 2011 (which I think are drinking well but no need to panic). 2017 and 2018 well regarded too.
Malbec is highly respected, not just for its early ripening; but its positive contributions to blends, and usually made as a standalone since 2005.
There are younger blocks, and younger vines, but fruit is not included in the Wendouree wines – sold off, as are batches that don’t meet the grading criteria.
Stephen George is still involved with the blending (and other tasks)
Seguin Moreau oak is till exclusively used
No “specials” are in the pipeline (like the 1990 bush vines shiraz or 1991 Malbec). They are a lot of extra work “but never say never”
A bigger must pump has helped with picking management (due to concentrations there were instances of "pick those two rows" then skip the next six, come back later, to get enough juice volumes to keep the pump from clogging); the pump has led to better wine outcomes too)

That's all I can recall, hope its of some help!

scribbler wrote:A lightning appointment at Wendouree a few days ago, where Lita showed me around - no tastings, but worth doing if only to look at the gnarly old vines. I’m an “initials” mailing list customer, but don’t go anywhere near the limits; generally Shiraz and anything with malbec in it; more recently also buying Shiraz/Mataro. Kirsten was still dealing with orders; Tony was busy with wine work.
Quick stuff, hopefully haven’t misinterpreted Lita

2016 reds are regarded as a return to the typical Wendouree style (like 2006). Lots of drought years apart from the wet 2011 (which I think are drinking well but no need to panic). 2017 and 2018 well regarded too.
Malbec is highly respected, not just for its early ripening; but its positive contributions to blends, and usually made as a standalone since 2005.
There are younger blocks, and younger vines, but fruit is not included in the Wendouree wines – sold off, as are batches that don’t meet the grading criteria.
Stephen George is still involved with the blending (and other tasks)
Seguin Moreau oak is till exclusively used
No “specials” are in the pipeline (like the 1990 bush vines shiraz or 1991 Malbec). They are a lot of extra work “but never say never”
A bigger must pump has helped with picking management (due to concentrations there were instances of "pick those two rows" then skip the next six, come back later, to get enough juice volumes to keep the pump from clogging); the pump has led to better wine outcomes too)

That's all I can recall, hope its of some help!

Some very interesting insights into the inner workings at Wendouree. Thanks for the notes.