Hawke's Bay - what do you know about it?

[LynB]

Hi there,

I'm trying to get a handle on how much the Australian consumer knows about Hawke's Bay wines. We get press releases and wine media comments etc but its difficult to tell how much of that filtrates down to the person buying the stuff.

Any comments, ideas, insights would be most welcome even if it's "never heard of it"!

Cheers
Lyn

[Red Bigot]

Hi Lyn, is there any particular purpose to your enquiry?
For me, I've been there for one brief day, I enjoy some of the reds, but don't always agree with the rave reviews some of them generate. At the lower to mid-price range (up to $25-$30) I think similarly priced Aus reds are generally much better value. Above that, it's a bit more line ball and a matter of stylistic preference. The availability in Australia is pretty limited and the prices high, I've had one mixed case of 2006 Syrah delivered directly from NZ and am looking at doing another order, but can't find one merchant that has all the wines I want.

[LynB]

Hi Brian
This is exactly the short of stuff I want to know, thanks. I work for the regional winegrowers association in Hawke's Bay and its hard to get some real answers in markets. I realise HB is not well known and has limited availablity but given some of the rave reviews (which you so accurately mention) there must be reasons for this. Is it just price or is the Australian palate in many cases just not happy with what is produced here? That's a huge generalisation I know....
Lyn

[Scanlon]

Hi LynB

Based on the list of of Hawke's Bay wineries listed here: (http://www.hawkesbaywines.com/index.php ... y_Wineries)

I have had wine from the following:
Trinity Hill Ltd
Te Mata Estate Winery Ltd
Craggy Range Vineyards Ltd

so not very many!
I'd say all of these have been bought/tasted from East End here in Adelaide, but i wouldn't say the wines are exactly widely represented elsewhere. They also tend to be on the $$$ side in comparison to local wines, or more directly comparative, other NZ regions growing the same varieties.

Hope that helps,
Sarah

[winetastic]

The extent of my knowledge: "A wine region in New Zealand".

[Rawshack]

The extent of my knowledge: "A wine region in New Zealand".

About the same as me. I'm pretty sure I read though that there's some good Merlot and Shiraz coming out of the region (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Certainly doesn't have the exposure that Marlborough has for it's SB or Central Otago for pinot

However, a quick look on Wikipedia states that 'Hawkes Bay is renowned on the world stage for it's award winning wines'... who am I to argue with Wikipedia..?

[orpheus]

My own experience of Hawkes Bay wines comes mainly from word of mouth, and trips to NZ.

I haven't had a bad wine from Gimblett Gravels, and find the style of syrah that is made there particularly exciting.

Unlike earlier NZ red wine efforts, these wines also tend to have ripe fruit, but also cool-climate acidity and spiciness, and interesting noses.

NZ wines generally fetch high prices at auction (Langtons).

That said, these wines have a low profile amongst the broader Australian wine-drinking public, who are very familiar with Marlborough sauvignon blanc and Otago Pinot Noir, but not much else.

Kemenys stocked and advertised the Craggy Range "Le Sol" syrah. The 2002 of this wine is superb.

[Red Bigot]

Hi Brian
This is exactly the short of stuff I want to know, thanks. I work for the regional winegrowers association in Hawke's Bay and its hard to get some real answers in markets. I realise HB is not well known and has limited availablity but given some of the rave reviews (which you so accurately mention) there must be reasons for this. Is it just price or is the Australian palate in many cases just not happy with what is produced here? That's a huge generalisation I know....
Lyn

Ok, thanks for the clarification.
In our one day we visited CJ Pask, Te Aro, Unison, Trinity Hill, Te Mata, Craggy Range and stopped at Sileni Estate but didn't try anything there. The wines at Craggy Range, and Unison impressed most, thought many of the Trinity Hill wines were dubious value. It was October, so many were not open on the weekday we were there. We were in NZ for a week and drank mostly NZ wines, including a lovely Mills Reef Elspeth Syrah 2000, but were less impressed by the cheaper syrah and cab blends we tried.

I've bought in Australia wines from Te Mata and Craggy Range, mostly Bullnose Syrah and Block 14 Syrah, but some Sophia as well.
The wine I bought direct from NZ included Church Rd Reserve Syrah 2006, Villa Maria Reserve Syrah 2006 (and 3 Passage Rock Reserve Syrah 2006). All of these are scarce in Australia and if available, much more expensive than buying them direct. Of these I most enjoyed the Villa Maria and Church Rd, not so much the Passage Rock. I'm happy with the couple of vintages of Te Mata Bullnose and Craggy Range Block 14 I've bought, but in Aus there are many wines I enjoy as much or more at prices up to the $45 or so paid for these. Sophia at $55 or so is not all that tempting as a regular buy. At $40AUD + $10pb shipping there isn't much saving in getting it direct either.

I've also bought some CJ Pask wines on Gray's Auctions, someone has been selling a range of their wines there for the last year or so, realising prices well below retail. Mostly low level stuff, but I bought a lot of the Gimblett Rd Chardonnay 2006 for friends who loved it ($10-$12pb), a 6-pack of Declaration Cab-Merlot 2004 ($22pb)and some of the currently selling Hawkes Bay Cabernet Merlot 2006 ($6-$7pb). The odd thing is these wines aren't visible on the Aus. retail scene, so it's not a marketing exercise.

I look at Geoff Kelly's and Bob Campbells sites occasionally and am looking to buy some more wines for delivery from NZ, but as mentioned the ones I want are not all available from a single e-tailer who has good shipping arrangements.
NZ e-tailers could sell a lot more wine for direct shipment if they got their act together.

[GraemeG]

Visited last year also. Sampled Trinity Hill, Esk Valley, Vidal, and an in-depth visit/tour of Craggy Range (there are long posts here under my name last October).
Hugely impressed with the Gimblett Gravel offerings and the Bdx-style reds generally. Certainly offer good value in NZ, less so in Australia with our stupid tax regime. Some prices are silly even in Kiwi (Trinity's Hommage, f'rinstance), but there are excellent wines to be had without too much effort - once you've found the right retailer.
I think availability is the chief limiting factor for Australian sales of HB reds. This is presuming they're not interesting in fighting it out in the underA$15 category, of course.
cheers,
Graeme

[Michael McNally]

I drink very little NZ wine, no red. I will be honest and say that if I had to list all the NZ wine regions I know I would have struggled to get past 3 and Hawke's Bay wouldn't have been one of them.

I have drunk a few of the Craggy Range whites because they were in my local, but I couldn't have told you Craggy Range was in Hawke's Bay, sorry. Of the other wineries listed I can only say I have heard of Te Mata and Sacred Hill (and that is only because one or two members on this site bang on about them all the time ) but again I couldn't have said they were from Hawke's Bay.

Don't know if I am an average Aussie wine drinker (my budget pretty much stops at $30 per bottle), but there you go. If you are angling for a big increase in your marketing budget, I tend to ignore advertising about wine as it is generally a crock.

Honest feedback - and free!!

[Bick]

...Te Mata and Sacred Hill (and that is only because one or two members on this site bang on about them all the time )

I can't recall anyone ever going on about any Sacred Hill wines at all.

Its interesting to hear how Aussies on the forum say they know very little about Hawkes Bay wine though... I think its widely recognised by Kiwis as one of the best wine making regions in NZ. I buy way more Hawkes Bay wine than I do from anywhere else, as its where most of the best syrah and bdx blends come from.

[bacchaebabe]

Hi Lyn,

when you asked the question the first two wineries that popped into my head were Gimblett Gravels and Craggy Range. I've heard of all the wineries mentioned by the other folk and would have put most of them (but not all) in Hawkes Bay in a multiple choice question but not necessarily off the top of my head.

I've only ever been to the South Island and thus tasted and bought the wines from there, bringing them back in my luggage.

I'd like to try a lot more NZ reds but find them very difficult to source and expensive to buy. I generally buy in the $30-$50 range with the occasional splurge and the occasional case of quaffers. I've seen a few of the wines I'd like to try at Kemenys in Bondi and the Australian Wine Centre (I think that's what it's called) at Circular Quay, both in Sydney but single bottle prices, particularly at AWC are quite expensive.

I don't think I've actually had even one single bottle from Hawkes Bay but would definitely like to.

I guess the other thing to bear in mind is that most of the people that post here are quite obsessed by wine and have substantial cellars so are hardly your typical Australian punter. Craig NZ and Sue Courtney, who both post here, among quite a few others, are also very strong advocates for NZ wines and they have all certainly done a lot to progress my education about NZ wines. Certainly more than any advertising campaign or anything else.

[Craig(NZ)]

I can't recall anyone ever going on about any Sacred Hill wines at all.

hmm i had an 07 riflemans a month ago, that was yummo

there ya go, now someones gone on about it hehe

I buy way more Hawkes Bay wine than I do from anywhere else, as its where most of the best syrah and bdx blends come from.

ditto. by a long way and id add chardonnay to that. A good lump of the chardy I buy is from the Bay; elston, riflemans and such

[LynB]

Thanks all, I really appreciate your comments. It's good to hear what you all think and what it's like within the Australian market for you. And yes, I realise you are all people that have an increased interest or knowledge in wine shall we say however if you don't know about Hawke's Bay then the average shopper wouldn't have a clue at all. Sue Courtney and Craig (NZ) do a great job promoting NZ wines as I've seen from previous topics. Keep the info coming in, any trivia worthwhile!! I'm really enjoying the format.

Also check out our website for the real info on Hawke's Bay wines and wineries. I don't meet the criteria for posting a site at present so try the usual "winehawkesbay" at a dot co dot nz address.

Cheers, Lyn

[Bick]

Just did a few little calculations of what's in my cellar. Hawkes Bay makes up:

54% of all bdx blends
58% of chardonnay;
43% of syrah/shiraz (but that's 100% of my NZ syrah)

Funnily enough all my straight cab sauv is aussie though.

[Irregular]

Lyn,

In regard to NZ wines, Hawks Bay included, the hurdles for me are, in no particular order: exposure, availability, pedigree and price.

NZ wines in general have minimal exposure here, sauv blanc being the exception, which I don’t drink. My purchasing habits are based on knowledge, track record and pedigree of a producer, there are some I buy each year without question. NZ wines do not yet fit this criteria simply because I am unfamiliar with them. Other wines I will purchase as a result of cellar door visits, or more particularly these days, from wine tastings put on by a retailer - five retailers in my area have weekly wine tastings, not that I go every week, however, it does provide a great opportunity to promote a product, and over the past 2-3 years I would say there would be less than a handful of NZ wines offered.

The only opportunity I get to experience NZ wines is through the annual NZ road show that comes to town. This is a great event, however, it’s a once a year thing and typically the wines I like aren’t available locally (Melbourne)!

Some of the Hawks Bay wines I’ve had include:
Bridge Pa – the 06 Louis and Reserve Syrah’s are both stunning (but not available locally).
Craggy Range - widely available, some good wine, albeit expensive.
Elephant Hill – not here and too expensive.
Esk Valley – didn’t excite and again, pricey.
Glazebrook – from good to not so good!
Mission – Good wines, bit pricy and not available here.
Trinity Hill – Not a huge fan of their wines and again, over priced.

For me, the issue NZ wine has is simple – exposure, or lack of it. It’s a very crowded market and getting a profile is difficult, perhaps you need a few ‘champions’ from which the region can build upon? Is this not how most regions earn a reputation?

Get the local distributors to promote more – through wine tastings, it would help enormously. Oh, and drop prices – we’re in recession after all


Hope this helps - it's meant to be constructive as I'm a real fan of NZ wine.

cheers
Ian

[rooman]

LynB

I would say the simple truth is that, ignoring kiwis who live in Australia, 95% of the Aussie wine buying public have no idea what or where HB is. Ask them about Malborough or Central Otago and you will get a much more educated response. The trouble is the main wines coming out of HB, chard, cab/sav and now shiraz have solid equivalents produced in Aus hence there is no noticeable point of difference for buyers. Personally I think it will be a big mountain to climb if you are coming at it from the perspective of quality rather than value.

Mark

[KMP]

Perspective from an Aussie in California where Hawke’s Bay wines are pretty thin in the ground as well.

Visited several NZ wine regions in Dec 2006. Spent a couple of days in Hawke’s Bay and visited Te Mata, Sileni, Stonecroft, Unison, Te Awa, Trinity Hill and Vidal. Very friendly receptions all round esp at Te Mata and Sileni. My most lasting impression about Hawkes Bay is the diversity of the Syrah. Admittedly I only tasted across two vintages (2004 and 2005) but even so the differences were pronounced. The 2004 wines go from peppery (almost under-ripe) wines to almost over ripe wines, and even though the 2005s appear to have more depth, they ranged from a peppery style to something that approached Cabernet in its flavor profile. And all this from a handful of wineries in one region!

Previous to our 2006 visit I had attended a wine dinner hosted by Steve Smith MW of Craggy Range here in San Diego. That was probably my first exposure to more than one NZ wine at a time and more than just SB. Although Craggy Range is available here I have to agree that they don’t offer real value.

The local wine shop owner here has relatives in NZ and he has been bringing in an increasing number of wines. Without that effort I would be seeing very few NZ wines apart from the usual SB.

Mike

[rooman]

Hi Lyn, is there any particular purpose to your enquiry?
For me, I've been there for one brief day, I enjoy some of the reds, but don't always agree with the rave reviews some of them generate. At the lower to mid-price range (up to $25-$30) I think similarly priced Aus reds are generally much better value. Above that, it's a bit more line ball and a matter of stylistic preference. The availability in Australia is pretty limited and the prices high, I've had one mixed case of 2006 Syrah delivered directly from NZ and am looking at doing another order, but can't find one merchant that has all the wines I want.

Brian

I am interested to know how your importing from NZ experience went. I have recently purchased some wine (the Larose being discussed above) and was going to store it with a friend in Auckland. However if importing experience went well, I may get them to courir it to me over here.

Mark

[Loztralia]

Although I wouldn't claim any degree of familiarity I would say I associate Hawkes Bay with syrah in the same way as the more well known Central Otago/pinot and Marlborough/sauv blanc connections. Not sure if that helps at all.

I've only got two bottles of actual HB wines - a Te Mata Coleraine bought on reputation and a syrah I can't recall off the top of my head.

[Red Bigot]

Hi Lyn, is there any particular purpose to your enquiry?
For me, I've been there for one brief day, I enjoy some of the reds, but don't always agree with the rave reviews some of them generate. At the lower to mid-price range (up to $25-$30) I think similarly priced Aus reds are generally much better value. Above that, it's a bit more line ball and a matter of stylistic preference. The availability in Australia is pretty limited and the prices high, I've had one mixed case of 2006 Syrah delivered directly from NZ and am looking at doing another order, but can't find one merchant that has all the wines I want.

Brian

I am interested to know how your importing from NZ experience went. I have recently purchased some wine (the Larose being discussed above) and was going to store it with a friend in Auckland. However if importing experience went well, I may get them to courir it to me over here.

Mark

The complete story and additional info are available to my subscribers - Buying Wines from NZ link on the members main page. The key is to use merchants that organise freight with the Aus importation end included in the price, ranges from NZD$120-$150/case.

[SueNZ]

I am interested to know how your importing from NZ experience went. I have recently purchased some wine (the Larose being discussed above) and was going to store it with a friend in Auckland. However if importing experience went well, I may get them to courir it to me over here.
Mark

Mark,

Good to talk to people who have imported wines into Aus. Roger on Otagowine.com uses Consolidated Freight to ship wines. According to his website it takes 10-20 days and costs $135 for 12 bottles. Also, prices in NZ stores include 12.5% GST. You don't pay the NZ GST if shipping offshore, but you do get to pay your duties and your country's taxes.

Cheers,
Sue

[Craig(NZ)]

Visited several NZ wine regions in Dec 2006. Spent a couple of days in Hawke’s Bay and visited Te Mata, Sileni, Stonecroft, Unison, Te Awa, Trinity Hill and Vidal. Very friendly receptions all round esp at Te Mata and Sileni. My most lasting impression about Hawkes Bay is the diversity of the Syrah. Admittedly I only tasted across two vintages (2004 and 2005) but even so the differences were pronounced. The 2004 wines go from peppery (almost under-ripe) wines to almost over ripe wines, and even though the 2005s appear to have more depth, they ranged from a peppery style to something that approached Cabernet in its flavor profile. And all this from a handful of wineries in one region!

My rating of hawkes bay syrah vintages off the top of my head since the watershed 2002 vintage

2002 - Solid. Very dense extracted wines, need cellaring. Many producers loved their oak a bit much and many big styled wines. Some very age worthy wines that should do well
2003 - Lesser year. Some attractive wines but many struggled lack depth and texture. cooler vintage
2004 - Solid. Deep seated dark wines. Look good for the cellar. Still ascending
2005 - Quite variable, i feel overrated vintage. Some good wines from some producers but lack the real fruit presense, restraint and deep set quality of the best.
2006 - Good. Looks better, darker and more expressive. Many extremely good wines at top end
2007 - Looks fantastic. Awesome wines from what ive tried so far. Substance coupled with finesse

[Red Bigot]

I am interested to know how your importing from NZ experience went. I have recently purchased some wine (the Larose being discussed above) and was going to store it with a friend in Auckland. However if importing experience went well, I may get them to courir it to me over here.
Mark

Mark,

Good to talk to people who have imported wines into Aus. Roger on Otagowine.com uses Consolidated Freight to ship wines. According to his website it takes 10-20 days and costs $135 for 12 bottles. Also, prices in NZ stores include 12.5% GST. You don't pay the NZ GST if shipping offshore, but you do get to pay your duties and your country's taxes.

Cheers,
Sue

Sue, If you use the consolidated freight option (ie freight plus duty etc paid, shipped to your door) the merchant or freight company retains the 12.5%, so o/s purchaser pays the listed price. That makes some buys pretty marginal (has to be over $10pb less than in Oz.), but there are still plenty, including some Aus and French/Italian wines at the premium level as well as premium NZ wines. If you organise tour own freight or choose the non-consolidate option, it's cheaper and you get the 12.5% off, but have to clear it through customs and pay duty/wet yourself.

[SueNZ]

Sue, If you use the consolidated freight option (ie freight plus duty etc paid, shipped to your door) the merchant or freight company retains the 12.5%, so o/s purchaser pays the listed price. That makes some buys pretty marginal (has to be over $10pb less than in Oz.), but there are still plenty, including some Aus and French/Italian wines at the premium level as well as premium NZ wines. If you organise tour own freight or choose the non-consolidate option, it's cheaper and you get the 12.5% off, but have to clear it through customs and pay duty/wet yourself.

Gosh, whatever option, it seems a very expensive exercise to ship wines.

[rooman]

I think I will just go back to carrying 6 packs across the ditch with the wife.

[Red Bigot]

I think I will just go back to carrying 6 packs across the ditch with the wife.

I still "saved" over $100 on the case compared to local prices.