Shiraz v Syrah

[KMP]

What distinguishes Shiraz from Syrah in Australia? No, not from the grape variety point of view; they are after all the same. Rather why would a winery call a wine made from Shiraz grapes, Syrah? Is in a tip of the hat to Rhone wines? Or maybe the wine does not have enough Shiraz to be labeled as such? A marketing ploy? Can’t spell Shiraz?

Calling a wine Syrah is more common in Australia than I thought. A search of Halliday’s online site for Syrah found 38 wineries and 52 wines from 24 regions! From a brief run through a few of Halliday’s tasting notes I found nothing to suggest that these wines look different from a generic Shiraz; but then Halliday’s notes are pretty short.

A quick look at Wine Front gave the same info. A bunch of wines but neither Mattinson nor Walsh made any comment on why a wine would be called Syrah, at least in the few TNs’ I looked at.

So what is the reason to call a wine Syrah in Australia?

Mike

[Bick]

Because some producers have cottoned on that its the proper name for the grape?

Probably the winemaker is trying to make a european-styled wine or at least trying to make it look as though they have achieved that for marketing to Europe/RoW?

[JamieH]

i think the winemakers are trying to distinguish their style from the blockbuster South Australia style which is imprinted on most consumers minds. as Bick wrote, whenever i see Sryah on a label i think of a more european style, lower oak use, elegant, cool climate shiraz eg Port Phillip estate, Castagna Genesis.

Jamie

[winetastic]

Same shit, different smell?

[griff]

I think it funny that they do so. Just marketing really. As for denoting cool climate european styled wine all I can say is Rosemount Balmoral Syrah

cheers

Carl

[KMP]

I think it funny that they do so. Just marketing really. As for denoting cool climate european styled wine all I can say is Rosemount Balmoral Syrah

cheers

Carl

Yes, I presume when folks say that a wine labeled Syrah is more european-styled that they are talking about Northern Rhone; Syrah or Syrah with Viognier. But clearly that idea is not well accepted by Aussie winemakers because even when you breakdown the regions in Australia that produce wines that carry the moniker Syrah its pretty clear that most of the wines from each region would be labeled Shiraz. I have taken Halliday's list and broken it down into State/Zone and then into region for Syrah labeled wines.

North East VIC:Rutherglen, King Valley, Beechworth, Alpine Valleys
Port Phillip VIC:Geelong, Mornington Peninsula, Yarra valley
Central VIC: Upper Goulburn, Heathcote, Bendigo,
Western VIC: Grampians, Henty
Gippsland, VIC

Fleurieu SA: McLaren Vale, Southern Fleurieu
Mount Lofty Ranges SA: Adelaide Hills

QLD: South Burnett, Granite Belt, Queensland Coastal

Southern NSW: Canberra District
Hunter Valley NSW: Hunter
Central Ranges NSW: Orange

South West Australia: Margaret River

Tasmania: Southern Tasmania

Its pretty obvious that Victoria has the majority of regions in which wine makers feel a need (for whatever reason) to stick Syrah on their label. So some might feel that there is a regional distinction but that is not clear from the tasting notes of some of these wines. So I think you have to seriously question why Syrah gets on the label.

In terms of whether its the proper name for the grape, all I can say is when the name Crljenak Kaštelanski is accepted as the correct name for Zinfandel in the US then maybe it might be time to change Shiraz to Syrah in Oz!

Mike

[Rawshack]

The best thing to do is grab something from the northern Rhone (a Crozes Hermitage if you're on a budget, a St Joseph or Cornas if you're flush) and then an archetypal, Barossa Shiraz - take your pick, there's plenty.

You'll notice a difference that's deeper than a simple name change.

I've noticed that in Victoria, there seems to be growing trend to use Syrah. Luke Lambert and De Bortoli are two making great examples.

Also, I recall reading an article with a Rhone producer who stated that Victoria would be the place for great Syrah in the future. We'll wait and see.

[KMP]

The best thing to do is grab something from the northern Rhone (a Crozes Hermitage if you're on a budget, a St Joseph or Cornas if you're flush) and then an archetypal, Barossa Shiraz - take your pick, there's plenty.

You'll notice a difference that's deeper than a simple name change.

I've noticed that in Victoria, there seems to be growing trend to use Syrah. Luke Lambert and De Bortoli are two making great examples.

Also, I recall reading an article with a Rhone producer who stated that Victoria would be the place for great Syrah in the future. We'll wait and see.

I think (at least I hope) that most of us would be able to tell the difference between an archetypal Barossa Shiraz and a northern Rhone. What I'm more interested in is (because of this idea that Syrah equates with a european style, and more likely a Rhone) how many Aussie wine labeled Syrah would be confused with northern Rhones? And perhaps more importantly if they were confused with a typical northern Rhone whether they can still be considered to be typical examples of the Australian region they came from?

Mike

[Rawshack]

The best thing to do is grab something from the northern Rhone (a Crozes Hermitage if you're on a budget, a St Joseph or Cornas if you're flush) and then an archetypal, Barossa Shiraz - take your pick, there's plenty.

You'll notice a difference that's deeper than a simple name change.

I've noticed that in Victoria, there seems to be growing trend to use Syrah. Luke Lambert and De Bortoli are two making great examples.

Also, I recall reading an article with a Rhone producer who stated that Victoria would be the place for great Syrah in the future. We'll wait and see.

I think (at least I hope) that most of us would be able to tell the difference between an archetypal Barossa Shiraz and a northern Rhone. What I'm more interested in is (because of this idea that Syrah equates with a european style, and more likely a Rhone) how many Aussie wine labeled Syrah would be confused with northern Rhones? And perhaps more importantly if they were confused with a typical northern Rhone whether they can still be considered to be typical examples of the Australian region they came from?

Mike

Good point, and perhaps my post was a little clunky

Going back to the Victorian moel, I've finding that there's more producers coming up with leaner, tighter examples with a touch more acidity, a little less body and firmer tannin structure. Perhaps there's a feeling that they're more alligned to the Northern Rhone than their South Australian cousins, and would like consumers to be aware of this

They could however, just being pretentious and could do with a slap or two. We are after all, in Australia, not Europe and here it's Shiraz, not your namby pamby Syrah?

As a footnote, I'd like to see producers continue with the concept of regionality. Keep pressing the notion that a McLaren vale is one style, and that a Vic or a Hunter is another.

[Roscoe]

I think it's all about marketing, not anything to do with the wine. If you are developing a new label, syrah sounds more exciting and interesting than shiraz. If syrah becomes more common than shiraz and for a long enough time, eventually shiraz will sound more exciting and interesting than syrah.
Call me cynical, but look at the fashion industry. For many people, wine is a fashion accessory.

[Rawshack]

I think it's all about marketing, not anything to do with the wine. If you are developing a new label, syrah sounds more exciting and interesting than shiraz. If syrah becomes more common than shiraz and for a long enough time, eventually shiraz will sound more exciting and interesting than syrah.
Call me cynical, but look at the fashion industry. For many people, wine is a fashion accessory.

Sauvignon Blanc. I rest my case. And yours.

[JamieH]

Elegant, finesse, med bodied, not over extracted, balanced, some of the regular used words by Halliday for Syrahs.

Roscoe wrote

I think it's all about marketing, not anything to do with the wine.

would you go to the trouble of making an elegant cool climate wine, then label it as shiraz and stick it in the middle of 100 South Aussie ones and hope someone is going try it. my shop alone has over 200 shiraz, close to 130 would be from SA, as long as producers keep to the style and don't just label any old wine syrah, i say go for it.

KMP wrote:

And perhaps more importantly if they were confused with a typical northern Rhone whether they can still be considered to be typical examples of the Australian region they came from?

thats probably why they label it syrah, to distinguish it from the others in their region.

But that just my opinion, again.

Jamie

[Mahmoud Ali]

Good points all around, however I'd be curious to hear the wine-makers view on why they chose to call their wine Syrah.

Personally I don't think it has much to do with fashion as much as what they want the wine-buyer to think they're trying to achieve. Around the world new producers are choosing to call their wines either Shiraz or Syrah and I think it has more to do with what they want the consumer to think, Syrah for a French-style wine, drier and with more acidity and structure, and Shiraz for an Australian-style wine, fruitier, bigger and perhaps with higher alcohol.

There is a South African producer who made both a Shiraz and a Syrah. The Shiraz was the basic consumer line and the Shiraz was a single-vineyard effort. Same producer, two different markets.

Cheers..............Mahmoud.

[KMP]

Elegant, finesse, med bodied, not over extracted, balanced, some of the regular used words by Halliday for Syrahs.

You really think so? I did a quick look through several regions. As an example, for Beechworth a search of Halliday's site under Shiraz and Shiraz Blends found 11 wineries and 20 wines (some with several vintages). Looking for the words you say Halliday uses for Syrah here is what I came up with

Shiraz and Shiraz Blends
Golden Ball Beechworth Shiraz 2002: Light to medium-bodied; elegant (2004 – medium bodied)
Pennyweight Winery Beechworth Shiraz 1999: a medium-bodied palate (2001 elegant palate)
Smiths Vineyard 310 Beechworth Shiraz 2006: elegant
Tinkers Hill Vineyard Shiraz 2004: Very elegant medium-bodied style
Yengari Wines Granite Beechworth Shiraz 2002: medium-bodied

Syrah Wines
Castagna Genesis Beechworth Syrah 2002: Light to medium-bodied; supremely elegant
While the notes on the Battely Wines Syrah read like generic Shiraz.

The problem is, of course, that most wineries call their wine Shiraz and so if being medium bodied and elegant is a regional character then it will also occur in those wine allowed to express the region irrespective of what you call them. So in the Yarra Valley you have 4 wineries and 5 wines for Syrah, but a search for Shiraz and Shiraz blends found 83 wineries and 157 wines (this will include Syrah wines). I'm not going to search through all that in detail but I'll bet the words elegant, med bodied and certainly balanced occur in many Shiraz wines.

KMP wrote:

And perhaps more importantly if they were confused with a typical northern Rhone whether they can still be considered to be typical examples of the Australian region they came from?

thats probably why they label it syrah, to distinguish it from the others in their region.

But that just my opinion, again.

Jamie

There, I think you may have hit the nail on the head, the label Syrah is used to distinguish the wine from others and to some of us that is pure marketing and it may be that the wine is not typical of the region but more of the winemaker's art, not that there is anything wrong with that but is the winemaker trying to make an Australian wine or is he/she lost in the Old World?

Mike

[Bick]

Sauvignon Blanc. I rest my case. And yours.

A bit off-topic, but I'm not sure Sauv blanc is a good example of a fashion wine - it became popular in NZ ( and consequently in export countries) because it was well made, well reviewed, easily appreciated and relatively cheap. I think a better current example would be pinot gris, which is often not good, not so cheap, and mainly bought (by the plebs) on account of it sounding a bit like pinot noir. Now that's a fashion wine.

[JamieH]

Guys and gals, tonight i will shoot of some emails to winerys and ask them this question directly, hopefully get some answers from a winemaker/owner/marketing team.

Jamie

[Rawshack]

Sauvignon Blanc. I rest my case. And yours.

A bit off-topic, but I'm not sure Sauv blanc is a good example of a fashion wine - it became popular in NZ ( and consequently in export countries) because it was well made, well reviewed, easily appreciated and relatively cheap. I think a better current example would be pinot gris, which is often not good, not so cheap, and mainly bought (by the plebs) on account of it sounding a bit like pinot noir. Now that's a fashion wine.

I think SB is the perfect example. Emperors new clothes. Soon be yesterdays wine and there's going to be a lot of unwanted vines. We'll need to start a home for them, the Battersea Grape Home , where unwanted Sauvignon vines get the love and care that they need. Give generously, your money will make a difference

[ufo]

Sauvignon Blanc. I rest my case. And yours.

A bit off-topic, but I'm not sure Sauv blanc is a good example of a fashion wine - it became popular in NZ ( and consequently in export countries) because it was well made, well reviewed, easily appreciated and relatively cheap. I think a better current example would be pinot gris, which is often not good, not so cheap, and mainly bought (by the plebs) on account of it sounding a bit like pinot noir. Now that's a fashion wine.

Agreed. Having trouble understanding why peole attack Sauv Blanc so much. May be tall poppy sydnrome!!?

[griff]

Guys and gals, tonight i will shoot of some emails to winerys and ask them this question directly, hopefully get some answers from a winemaker/owner/marketing team.

Jamie

Good on you. Be interesting hearing why they went down a particular path.

cheers

Carl

[winetastic]

Agreed. Having trouble understanding why peole attack Sauv Blanc so much. May be tall poppy sydnrome!!?

Actually I think it may be the inverse of tall poppy syndrome. That and the fact it smells/tastes like cats piss

[rooman]

Castagna Genesis Beechworth Syrah 2002: Light to medium-bodied; supremely elegant

Mike

Mike

The Castagna Genesis 2002 was one of my favourite wines from last year. I could drink it any night of the week and still come back for more.

Mark
(PS still looking for some Clonakilla SV 07)

[cyberbird]

That's very interesting. I'm from the UK but don't recall seeing Syrah but see plenty of Shiraz.

Am I just being blind or is Syrah more of a Continental Europe wine?

[Sharkey]

I think there are so many wines to choose from that wineries have to distinguish their wine from the others, and quite often the best opportunity for this is with the label. It may be that the wine is a more European style and they are trying to get this point across by naming it Syrah, but it is still marketing.

The same applies to Shiraz Viognier. To label it Shiraz Viognier, as opposed to just Shiraz, is purely a marketing decision as the labelling laws state that if a wine contains 85% or more of one variety, you can label it as just that variety. I have never seen an SV with more than 10% Viognier and, in fact, with many containing less than 5% they are breaching the labelling laws. You are supposed to have a minimum of 5% of a variety to list it on the label.

[Rawshack]

That's very interesting. I'm from the UK but don't recall seeing Syrah but see plenty of Shiraz.

Am I just being blind or is Syrah more of a Continental Europe wine?

The French etc refer to it as Syrah, and the Aussies etc call it Shiraz. I'm sure that someone cleverer than me could tell us why (If I remember correctly Shiraz is the name of a town in Iran where the grape supposedly originated. I bet they're loving that fact over there)

It seems now that New World producers are labelling the wine based on style, i.e. European for Syrah, big and fat new world for Shiraz.

[Daryl Douglas]

That shiraz originated from around the city of that name in the middle east is supposed to have proven to be wrong several years ago by extensive investigation that included dna analysis. I guess it's no surprise that it was concluded that the shiraz/syrah grape variety originated in France, if my memory serves me correctly.

Shiraz the city is renowned for it's high quality rugs/carpets produced in a style particular to the region. Shiraz has long been known for its poets, gardens, wine, nightingales and flowers. Apparently it claims to have produced sherry before Jerez, Spain.

Go figure! Perhaps this issue has not yet been finally resolved.

Cheers

daz

[Mahmoud Ali]

There is some dispute about the old story of Syrah/Shiraz originating in Shiraz, Iran.

Whatever the case, when my partner and I were traveling across Iran, the people of Shiraz, and all Iran for that matter, were more interested in talking about their football win over Australia than they were about some grape vine that goes into the production of wine. Iran is a dry country and since few people drink wine there is little if any knowledge about Shiraz the wine.

Cheers....................Mahmoud

[Daryl Douglas]

There is some dispute about the old story of Syrah/Shiraz originating in Shiraz, Iran.

Whatever the case, when my partner and I were traveling across Iran, the people of Shiraz, and all Iran for that matter, were more interested in talking about their football win over Australia than they were about some grape vine that goes into the production of wine. Iran is a dry country and since few people drink wine there is little if any knowledge about Shiraz the wine.

Cheers....................Mahmoud

But Mahmoud, Iran, indeed the middle east in general, is reputed to have once been a verdant region. The Islamic rejection of alcohol is a relatively recent event, within the last few centuries(?) as far as I can gather.

I do lean to the scientific conclusion rather than the romantic assertion though.

Cheers

daz

Edit: This mentions the varieties that are reputed to have resulted in the genesis of syrah. But are they indigenous to the area of France where syrah began? It's the old chicken and egg thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiraz_grape

[JamieH]

Sent out four emails, one to Port Phillip Estate, one to De Bortli, one to Castanga, one to Battely. Got one back from Julian Castanga last night-


Did you have a specific reason for using the word Syrah in Genesis?

I am not personally a fan of big, gutsy shiraz wines and had no intention of making wine in that style. I wanted the market to be able to distinguish between what I was attempting to make and what was – at that time – the norm.



Are they a different clone?

The clones we have on our vineyard are cuttings from the materials brought to Australia from the Rhone in the 1850s. But, it is not just the clone that creates the style but decisions like picking ripeness, land where the vines grow and wine-making attitude.



How do you think people perceive your wine because you’ve used the word Syrah?

I hope they understand the story I am trying to tell. In many ways I am paying homage to the great wines of the Rhone; not that I am trying to copy what they do – I think that our wine is intrinsically Australian; Australian wine but perhaps with a French accent.



To me using Syrah outside of Rhone denotes a more elegant, less heavy handed oak style Shiraz, do you think it should be regulated, so we don’t end up a monster Barossan shiraz being labelled Syrah?

I’m not one for regulation. My belief is that the market will regulate itself (Wall Street excluded). I suspect that the makers of the type of wine that you describe as ‘monster Barossa shiraz’ think that my wine is a bit light and prissy and are more than happy to trade on the name shiraz. Powerful reviewers like Parker support them so why shouldn’t they.



When you and your team made Genesis did you have Rhone in mind?

I came to wine-making from a drinker’s perspective and I learnt my drinking in London in the ‘70s where there was much great Rhone wine available at ridiculously cheap prices. So, there is no doubt the biggest influence on me for the syrah grape was the Rhone. Furthermore, I believe wine should always – above everything else – be gastronomic. I do not believe that the high-alcohol blockbusters are gastronomic and therefore of little interest to me.


I hope that’s been of some help. Regards. Julian Castagna

[JamieH]

email back from Battely-

Did you have a specific reason for using the word Syrah

Shiraz is a specifically Australian term for the variety, Syrah is the proper name and used around the world. Secondly, I co-ferment 3-4% Viognier cf.cote-rotie, with the Shiraz/syrah and I use the name to identify the difference.


Are they a different clone?

No. I use several available clones but these would be planted variously elsewhere in Australia.


How do you think people perceive your wine because you've used the word Syrah?

It certainly promotes discussion! I think at the end of the market we’re selling most punters are aware of the origins of shiraz/syrah.


To me using Syrah outside of Rhone denotes a more elegant, less heavy handed oak style Shiraz, do you think it should be regulated, so we don't end up a monster Barossan shiraz being labelled Syrah?

I’m very against this idea. Syrah is also planted in the south of France and makes a quite different wine. The differences are clearly flagged by the regional labeling I believe. Think terroir not grape variety!


When you and your team made Battely did you have Rhone in mind?

I’m a great fan of the Rhone. Our style will always be a bit bigger and bolder and lie in comparison further south. In fact best climate comparison is somewhere N of orange. So the answer is a definite yes.

Cheers Russell

[griff]

Thanks Jamie. When you have two wines in the portfolio I can see how it can distinguish between them. Mind you I would be happier with shiraz viognier

cheers

Carl