What would you do????

[Mark G]

Forumites

Reading Graeme's passionate plea for everyone to post once a week, here's my 7 day contribution.

We're in the process of getting to production the first 7 ha of our vineyard in Margaret River (mid level - equivalent to Leeuwin and Voyager but inland) - lots of donkey work and financial hand wringing, but the big picture still keeps us going. The question to all youse who'd love to have a debt bigger than Ben Hur .... what would you plant to complete the vineyard (a further 4 ha). As we can't afford to do it next year, I'm interested to see where you'd all spend your hard earned dollars.

Note: I won't give up what we've planted in the first 7ha, suffice to say it is Bordeaux and Rhone based grapes.

The best thought out response can receive a prize from Graeme as he convinced us all to put fingers to keys!! Look forward to what you have to say.

Cheers

Mark G

[GraemeG]

There're lots of possible answers from the romantics. But since you're the man with the debt, I say - more of the same, but DIFFERENT CLONES. Is that possible? That'll get you right up to speed on what really works in your neck of the woods.

Incidentally, I'm not the Graeme who made the pleas about posting, but I agree with the sentiments anyway!

cheers,
Graeme

[Mark G]

Bit boring Graeme - We have a bit of a clone mix already in the blocks of each variety. The last 4 ha is to fill out the range of wines as the initial 7 ha provides us plenty of volume but only 3-4 wines (2-3 red, 1-2 white). Be free!!

[PaulV]

Hi Mark

Given the current oversupply situation , obviously not a grape that everyone else has planted.

Everyone seems to be planting olive groves around Margaret River so to complement I would be looking at putting in a bit of sangiovese and even nebbiolo. Just like the super tuscans if a straight varietal doesn't seem to have enough punch you can add some merlot, or cabernet too it and still be seen as a dinky-di italian style.

You also couldn't lose with some rhone whites such as viognier, amd italian white such as pinot gris (pinot griglio).

Just some thoughts off the top of my head - nothing to original but you want to be able to sell the damn stuff

Cheers

PaulV

[ChrisH]

Chardonnay is the obvious one - I don't see that in your list Mark. Margaret River has the runs on the board for great Oz chards.

Despite the wine press trying to drum up something new, I personally think varieties such as Viognier and Pinot Gris will always be fringe players (as they are elsewhere in the world). Plant them if you want some fun for the winemakers, but for cash you cannot go past Chardonnay for whites. The more you plant, the better the economy of scale up to a point and the more competitive you can be on price. Planting fringe players just distracts your focus from your main players in my opinion.

Now more than ever, given there are some 1600 wineries vying for the 10% of the market the big boys don't yet have, QPR is vital.


Good luck with it.

regards
Chris


regards
Chris

[Mark G]

ChrisH - Another bl**dy MR Chardonnay , it is very hard to be seen on the shelf as you're with 40-80 others (though if only we'd planted some as every one is clambering for the stuff at the moment ). All 4ha as well Chris? That's alot of the one variety.

Paul V - Super Tuscan MR sounds good, though the olive oil industry is a little bit teeny down here for us to go too far down the symbiosis track Sangiovese is certainly a good one, very flexible and good producer, though I've only heard nightmares about Nebbiollo. Viognier is good but Pinot Grigio may be a bit to early ripening, more of a cooler climate vine?

[Red Bigot]

Chardonnay is the obvious one - I don't see that in your list Mark. Margaret River has the runs on the board for great Oz chards.

Just to show I can be commercially sensitive, I agree with Chris. What MR seems to do best are Cabernet, Merlot, Shiraz and Chardonnay, that gives you a straight cab, merlot and shiraz and a cab-merlot, enough reds for a small maker plus maybe 2 price levels of chardonnay. Alternatively I'm told that SSB blends from MR have some attraction to some poor souls, so maybe a some of those two to get some early cash flow from whites made for early release and immediate drinking. If you think you can pull it off, maybe some zinfandel, you might aim for 'ours is as good as CM or Peel Estate, but $x cheaper'.

[radioactiveman]

Mark G,

What about a Rhone white like Marsanne or Rousanne?


Jamie

[JohnP]

MarkG
I would vote for petit verdot, of course you may already have some which makes the proposition irrelevant. Why do it? Don't really know to be honest, but the PV's I have had in the last 12-18 months have been impressive as single varietal wines and I think may be a wine style that Australian wine drinkers will move to more easily than say Zin or the Italian varieties.

Just a thought from someone who really knows bugger all about it - but had enough PV tonight to be willing to offer an opinion.
Best wishes with whatever it is you plant.
John

PS: Of course you could try and get some of the 1893 White from Rimfire Vineyard (QLD) - I believe they are still trying to identify the grape variety!!

[Mark G]

JohnP - Yup Petit Verdot is a goodie, and we haven't planted it as yet. Always in small amounts in bordeaux due to ripening issues (we believe) - cullens is looking at producing a straight one apparently (in the gossip mill ). With our archaic laws for bringing in cuttings into the state of WA you could forget the rimfire white

Jamie - Marsanne (beat you to this one - its in) I like - as for Roussanne ditto to above, finding cuttings in this state is not possible.

Brian - supporting chardonnay!! Thought I'd read it all, 2 levels of the same wine from a small estate is difficult to pull off unless the reserve is sublime and that's hard to guarantee. Surprised to see your a zin man - yes there is less to compete with, but to be honest would you like to be known for the best QPR zin in MR

I'm surprised no-one has come out of left field, I mean we have room to dabble here as the primary 7 ha gives us a reasonable return. I look forward to see what the next forumites would have us plant.

[JohnP]

I'm surprised no-one has come out of left field, I mean we have room to dabble here as the primary 7 ha gives us a reasonable return. I look forward to see what the next forumites would have us plant.

OK - second go.
How about Cinsaut, petit verdot, tempranillo, Carignan, Silvaner, Chasselas, Laski Rizling and Barbera!!! A half hectare each!!!
John

Or even Aligote as a swapper for one of the above whites!!!

[michaelw]

Mark,

With the climate and the ability to ripen well, how about some varieties used in the production of a fortified wine? From what I know of the region I would assume you would be providing something the others don't.

[accountant]

Are you contract supplying presently?

If so, get yourself a twenty year deal with regular payment review periods, and plant whatever the hell they want you to plant!

[Attila]

Your actual and final decision will affect you for years.

Personally, if I had stony soil with high mineral content, I'd definitely try Sauvignon Blanc with a little Semillon. Otherwise a Vouvray grape, like Chenin Blanc would be a lot of fun, creating a fresh and delicious white wine for around $19 that would bring in the money rather quickly.
Cheers,
Attila

[radioactiveman]

Mark G,

OK..... how about the next big thing in red wine: DURIF!!


Jamie

[Guest]

Otherwise a Vouvray grape, like Chenin Blanc would be a lot of fun, creating a fresh and delicious white wine for around $19 that would bring in the money rather quickly.
Cheers,
Attila

Attila, WA chenin at $19? Nice if you can get it. The WA market is dominated by Amberley Chenin (medium dry) at $10-$14. Tough call to produce 'serious' chenin there (or anywhere in OZ really?)

Regards

[Mark G]

Guest - good on ya, I'm sure we won't bother with chenin (oh, but what tonnage - cash flow only, forget romance)

Jamie - Don't know if Durif is in the state (will check), but to be honest it is not exactly inspiring, more of a big hammer to hit you on the head with.

Attilla - Yep the decision is impt, but not dire. To run to grapes for mere cash flow takes away the aim of us setting up the vines. Yea gods it'll be our names trumping this plonk around so we want to be at least enthusiastic about what we make. Sem SB are safe but predictable and need to be considered.

Accountant - Hardly inspiring, you have to LOVE wine to spend each day out there training, pruning, spraying, etc, etc ... we don't view this from the credit side of the balance sheet, this is a lifestyle choice. Last thing we want to do is be beholding to some 10,000t winery.....

MichaelW - Fortified wines, considered but not realistic solely because of the issue of flogging it. Rarely do dozens move out the door of some ruby port, or tokay etc. We're not into them so we are sticking to reds and whites (dry!)

JohnP - Now Tempranillo and PV we like - the rest well..... we'd need some convincing to plant carignan before grenache, silvaner before gewurtz etc.

It is getting more interesting - remember this is MRiver and you'd have to sell what you'd plant!!

[Ian S]

Mark
1st up: What is your intention for the extra ha's? That will influence your plans.

- Hedging? If so you may wish to have a balance of early/late ripeners or varieties that offer less risk of a total vintage disaster.
- Fun? In which case go the Brown's route of anything & everything (except Muller Thurgau, as you've got to have standards )
- Profit? Take stock of the original planting performance & plant based on that experience - if the market loves your 1st offerings, then it may suggest more of the same.
- Research? Variations of clones/planting density/trellising might be as interesting as variations in varieties.

Whilst it may seem that we're all wannabee grapegrowers, I can safely say "rather you than me" as it would take much more knowledge, skill, patience & cash than I have!

Best of luck & don't forget a special rate for Gavin on the finished product!

Ian

[simm]

Can't do anything for you but admire your bravery and stamina.
If I was living locally I would suggest a shack somewhere on the plot so that I could come over periodically and volunteer some sore muscles, back, swollen hands, and deep sleeps, for a vinyard dinner and taste of the product

Sound like you have your head on your shoulders, so may luck be with you,

[DJ]

Is there any grape variety Erl Happ hasn't planted yet? Surprised some not available.

[Curt]

Because I love the wines, I would consider Riesling and Pinot Noir but I don't know how well they do in the area. I just love the complexity you get in multiple varietal blends so what I would plant is Petit Verdot ( as a blender for the Bordeaux style wine or possible varietal wine ) The same goes for Malbec - this has proved to be very successful in NZ blends and I have seen some exciting straight variatals as well. Cabernet Franc also as a blender or even as the base for a Rose style - they have gained a lot in popularity here. I would also be on the look out for some interesting clonal variations of Cabernet and Merlot. Viogner ( again as a blender with your Rousanne or varital wine) and I would be looking hard for some Marsanne as well.
Good Luck ! Cheers, Curt

[Mark G]

Curt - riesling and pinot have a poor reputation in MR, maybe only Ashbrook for Riesling and Moss Wood for pinot (both sets of vines are reaching or over 30 as well - so maybe a long long term project Malbec is a mystery, noone around here rates it at all, also a poor fruit setter - will look but I don't know..... Marsanne in (and Viognier), but can't get Roussanne out here in hickville WA.

DJ - Yep Erl Happ has the biggest odd ball collection "in the world!!!!!" God bless him We've bummed cuttings off him already and I rate him very highly as both a bloke and good vigneron. Try the new three hills stuff top juice. Erl has one advantage over us, he's already making the wine and running a successful business, we're just kicking out so to be as "off the wall" as the Happs range is not really an option

Simm - ANYONE who wants to work for a free dinner and plonk, you're on!! It is really a lot of donkey work at the start, but the better it is done initially the better the vineyard will be. At times it is actually quite enjoyable, think no-one hassling you on the phone, no NOISE and a pleasant view over Margaret River ... it could be worse. Thanks for the vote of confidence too.

Ian S - the extra hectares are for the purpose of making one or two great "interesting" wines - with maybe one turnover wine also in the mix. I like the concept of a La Grien, Saperavi, Teroldego from MR - it could be marvellous, who knows, but wouldn't it spark your interest to try??

Thanks everyone for your comments - I won't let on what we are currently thinking about but all your comments have added another level of spice!!

Cheers

Mark G

[Muscat Mike]

Having only tried Tempranillo once and loving it, Zilzie, I would recommend that. Not many growing it but it is a beautiful wine.
MM.

[Martin Phillipson]

Surprised no one has mentioned ZINFANDEL yet. Is the climate right for it where you are?

Martin

[Ian S]

Ian S - the extra hectares are for the purpose of making one or two great "interesting" wines - with maybe one turnover wine also in the mix. I like the concept of a La Grien, Saperavi, Teroldego from MR - it could be marvellous, who knows, but wouldn't it spark your interest to try??

Cheers

Mark G

Some very interesting wine coming out of Southern Italy at the moment from Nero d'Avola grape - I suspect this grape may be more Barossa than MR, but can't say I've heard of the grape in Oz (yet).

Are there any significant ex-pat communities in Perth. Lots of Italian restaurants may offer a ready market for some traditional Italian varieties. Ditto for Greek & Spanish. That way you get commercial success & the chance to produce something special.

best of luck

[prester john]

I've always fancied the Spanish Tempranillo variety, however I believe that it is as fickle as pinot noir. But when it comes good, it surely is something to be beheld.

PJ.

[Sean]

deleted

[JohnP]

....... I like the concept of a La Grien, Saperavi, Teroldego from MR - it could be marvellous, who knows, but wouldn't it spark your interest to try??

Thanks everyone for your comments - I won't let on what we are currently thinking about but all your comments have added another level of spice!!

Cheers

Mark G

Mark,
How would you get hold of cuttings for La Grien, etc. I know people like Gapsted and Robin Day (Mount Crawford SA) have some saperavi (and Day also has sagrantino and garganega), but with WA's restrictive import laws where do you go to get them? Can you go off-shore (country of origin say) or are there Australian regions where you can source cuttings with less restrictions?

John

[michel]

Curt - riesling and pinot have a poor reputation in MR, maybe only Ashbrook for Riesling and Moss Wood for pinot
Mark G

Mark
did I hear Moss Wood were removing their Pinot vines?
I would steer clear of the grief of pinot.
michel

[Mark G]

Michel - Ah pinot, the holy grail, the one, the only .... and definately not for us!! Too hard and you have to be committed (literally in both senses of the word ). Maybe if we were in tassie or Vic.... as for Moss Wood, I haven't heard that one, I'd be very surprised if Kieth knocks out some of Bill's originals - maybe graft on a new dijon clone perhaps, I'll ask around

JohnP - yes that was me just fantasising - hickville WA is trying to bring in new varieties but it will take decades. If you want it you need to go to the country of origin, it's easier than anywhere in aus ... absolute cr*p

Sean - yep tempranillo will be a goer (good guess everyone ) - as for mondeuse that is new on me, is it a local term for monastrell or that other rhone red (geez I forget ... long day ... MATARO??). Will look into it. Sem SB is as predictable as chardonnay!!! But they may be required once we do the numbers, as for malvasia I'm not sure if it's here in WA and I haven't really tasted many to jump into it.

Prestor John - Tempranillo is a WEED in MR, it adores the late summer heat and crops like a trooper, admittedly all young vines I've looked at, but very encouraging.

Ian S - Cor blimey that's an oddity from the left wall - Nero d'Avola will have me looking in my texts tonight, sounds good and I'm assuming a red??

Martin - Zin got a run early on, it's just, you see.... I don't think much of the grape and the US connection doesn't inspire me also (I'm turning into a red bigot of sorts !!)

Muscat Mike - See above for Tempranillo.

Cheers everyone, it has me scurrying through the library (Nero d'Avola, you learn something new everyday), and a chance to fine tune!!