Hi all,
Had an interesting discussion about an exercise that occurred at the recent Len Evans Tutorial.
Premise- to assess Lalou-Bize's assertion that Le Beaux Monts is actually worthy of Grand Cru status.(It officially being classed as 1er Cru)
Apparently she has held this view for sometime; I don't imagine too many people are prepared to openly argue the point with her though,given her pre-eminent position in the Burgundy heirarchy!
Anyway,the wine in question was placed in a blind line-up of all the Grand Crus of Vosne Romanee and Flagey Eschezeaux(including La Grand Rue and La Romanee). The result...... well without there being any absolute answer(and really,how could there be),the outcome of nearly all the tasters notes showed that the Le Beaux Monts didn't quite cut the mustard. What I thought was really interesting though was that the two wines that came out on top without exception were La Tache and Romanee Conti,and remember that all wines were blind and all Grand Cru's(bar one).
It really says something about how accurately the terroir was mapped over a century ago,and about how amazingly relevent that categorisation remains today. I just thought that it must have been a fascinating exercise,the like of which most of us will not realistically have the chance to experience.
Something to aim for maybe ......??
By the way,the line up of wines that were tasted over three days was just incredible.Every great wine that you can imagine,it was there,and many in verticals(like a mini vertical-8 vintages- of Latour). Something else for us wine nerds to aim for!!
Cheers
Terroir
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Grant Dodd
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Guest
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Guest
Guest wrote:Very interesting point.
And fair dinkum too. These are great vinyeards and great wines.
Beaux Monts isn't that great....Parentoux and Malconsorts are better.
Bize Leroy is a self promotion junkie and really is not a balanced voice of reason.
Cheers
malconsorts most certainly is not. only cathiard makes one up to scratch, though a fine one at that.
parentoux is so small as to be almost irrelevant.
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michael
Grant,
sounds like a great night out. Not sure what it will prove, many grand cru's wouldn't show so well in that lineup.
I don't agree that the lines were mapped out so in the past, almost without fail the producer is the most important detail, followed by vintage and commune/climat.
There are so many examples that show up the classifications, it's hard to generalise. I never would have thought beaux monts to be grand cru, though there are worse wines - often in a monopole. Think Clos des Tart and Lambrays, as not always being up to snuff.
The size of the climat is often important as that dictates how many dodgy families are likely to still own some land. this is not really fair, but not everyone is committed to quality.
Some thoughts on generally underachieving vineyards, without reference to producer - we'd be here all day then.
Clos des la Roche
Clos st Denis
Corton
Vougeot - when did anyone last have great vougeot ?
Ruchottes Chambertin - even Rousseau turns out dodgy kit here.
Charmes Chambertin - only the dugat's bernard & claude achieve anything substantial here.
Premier cru's punching above their weight, for bevity I'll stick to the no brainers.
Chambolle Amoureuses - no premier has greater call.
Gevrey - clos st Jacques.
oddly then there are the obvious stand outs, where neighbours do not warrant it. i.e. Robert Arnoux's Vosne Les Suchots - is grand cru in all but name. which leads onto to better aspects within the climat. this one is the best in suchots.
Cathiard's malconsorts adjoins the la tache monopole, and is probably grand cru.
Camuzet's Aux Brulees is grand cru, not sure if anyone else's is on a consistent basis.
I'll leave it there, for want of making a dullard out of myself, but the point I am getting at is the classifications are not that sound, and the inheritance laws undermine this further as every day passes.
sounds like a great night out. Not sure what it will prove, many grand cru's wouldn't show so well in that lineup.
I don't agree that the lines were mapped out so in the past, almost without fail the producer is the most important detail, followed by vintage and commune/climat.
There are so many examples that show up the classifications, it's hard to generalise. I never would have thought beaux monts to be grand cru, though there are worse wines - often in a monopole. Think Clos des Tart and Lambrays, as not always being up to snuff.
The size of the climat is often important as that dictates how many dodgy families are likely to still own some land. this is not really fair, but not everyone is committed to quality.
Some thoughts on generally underachieving vineyards, without reference to producer - we'd be here all day then.
Clos des la Roche
Clos st Denis
Corton
Vougeot - when did anyone last have great vougeot ?
Ruchottes Chambertin - even Rousseau turns out dodgy kit here.
Charmes Chambertin - only the dugat's bernard & claude achieve anything substantial here.
Premier cru's punching above their weight, for bevity I'll stick to the no brainers.
Chambolle Amoureuses - no premier has greater call.
Gevrey - clos st Jacques.
oddly then there are the obvious stand outs, where neighbours do not warrant it. i.e. Robert Arnoux's Vosne Les Suchots - is grand cru in all but name. which leads onto to better aspects within the climat. this one is the best in suchots.
Cathiard's malconsorts adjoins the la tache monopole, and is probably grand cru.
Camuzet's Aux Brulees is grand cru, not sure if anyone else's is on a consistent basis.
I'll leave it there, for want of making a dullard out of myself, but the point I am getting at is the classifications are not that sound, and the inheritance laws undermine this further as every day passes.
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michael
oh 1 clarification about parentoux, at it's best it is certainly very fine. witness Henri Jayer. However the 2 main protagonists are Meo Camuzet & emmanuel Rouget, working uncle Henri's vines. Neither are consistent enough, particularly in the off vintages, though camuzet is the worst as his great vintages are not always great in this vineyard.
at it's best Cros Parentoux is grand cru all the way home, at other times i wouldn't think so.
at it's best Cros Parentoux is grand cru all the way home, at other times i wouldn't think so.
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David Lole
More importantly, producer is the name of the game here, not the location. Cros-Parantoux is exploited by Meo-Camuzet and Rouget exclusively - and what do these two have in common - only the great Henri Jayer, of course. Have you ever tried the '82 Jayer wine from this vineyard? Terrible year, really, wasn't it? Try the wine, it's sublime! Ever tried a Malconsorts from Larmache? Generally, pretty ordinary from the better years! Like all Burgundies, the exigous microclimates and multiple vineyard ownership make homogeneity in this fabled region nigh impossible. I'm sure Leroy's Beauxmonts craps all over Moillard's as a rule. Finding a top site with multiple owners/metayers/negotiants that can 'pump the jam', year in, year out, is akin to believing everything our current Prime Minister has ever said is true. Just my 2 cents worth.
Last edited by David Lole on Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Michael
David Lole wrote:More importantly, producer is the name of the game here, not the location. Cros-Parantoux is exploited by Meo-Camuzet and Rouget exclusively - and what do these two have in common - only the great Henri Jayer, of course. Have you ever tried the '82 Jayer wine from this vineyard? Terrible year, really, wasn't it? Try the wine, it's sublime! Ever tried a Malconsorts from Larmache? Ever tried a great producer (say De Vogue in Le Musigny) from a totally maligned year? Like all Burgundies, the exigous microclimates and multiple vineyard ownership make homogeneity in this fabled region nigh impossible. I'm sure Leroy's Beauxmonts craps all over Moillard's as a rule. Finding a top site with multiple owners/metayers/negotiants that can 'pump the jam', year in, year out, is akin to believing everything our current Prime Minister has ever said is true. Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers David,
had the 87 jayer cros a few weeks ago, very good, but not as great as some reckon imo. complex, but would have liked a bit more weight and thrust.
Disagree on Lemarche, don't really rate him at all. His malconsorts is a bit overwrought, and dull imo. Should clarify he certainly isn't a bad producer, but he squanders too much.
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David Lole
Michael,
Excuse my late night 'faux pas'.
Firstly, my reply was to the first few threads - didn't refresh the page before posting and being unaware of your post therefore duplicated a lot of what you had to say (and nowhere as well, it must be said).
Secondly, my comment on Lamarche was made without proper clarification. I mentioned the name with the purpose of Lamarche being an underachiever. In my rush to get to bed, and now having re-read the post, I've edited my comment to clarify that point. Apologies!
Also, I have never tried Jayer from '87. Even the best producer's from the "minefield" don't always get it exactly right. I was lucky enough to try a few vintages of Jayer's Parantoux from a friend's stash. Nowadays, the prices for his older wines have gone absolutely ballistic on the secondary market.
Excuse my late night 'faux pas'.
Firstly, my reply was to the first few threads - didn't refresh the page before posting and being unaware of your post therefore duplicated a lot of what you had to say (and nowhere as well, it must be said).
Secondly, my comment on Lamarche was made without proper clarification. I mentioned the name with the purpose of Lamarche being an underachiever. In my rush to get to bed, and now having re-read the post, I've edited my comment to clarify that point. Apologies!
Also, I have never tried Jayer from '87. Even the best producer's from the "minefield" don't always get it exactly right. I was lucky enough to try a few vintages of Jayer's Parantoux from a friend's stash. Nowadays, the prices for his older wines have gone absolutely ballistic on the secondary market.
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Grant Dodd
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David/Michael,
Agree that the producer is the major factor if you take Burgundy as a whole. My point was more relative to the Grand Cru question as presented in the exercise. Given the proximity of all the vineyards to each other,and the lack of any real technical aids as that of which we have now,I just find it remarkable that the superiority of La Tache and Romanee Conti could be so accurately identified 150 years ago.
Other points-
Vougeot- a minefield,no matter how carefully one treads,there is still a high probability of getting blown up!
Leroy- despite the suggestions of self promotion etc, I have to say that she has earnt her pre eminent status. I have only ever tried two Leroy wines,and they were both incredible expressions of the pinot noir. Tasted alongside Chambertin, Corton and Eschezeaux and others,a Leroy NSG Les Rugiens 1er just stood out like a beacon on one occasion,very impressive. Frighfully expensive now though,but thats what happens when your track record is as good as hers.
Cheers
Agree that the producer is the major factor if you take Burgundy as a whole. My point was more relative to the Grand Cru question as presented in the exercise. Given the proximity of all the vineyards to each other,and the lack of any real technical aids as that of which we have now,I just find it remarkable that the superiority of La Tache and Romanee Conti could be so accurately identified 150 years ago.
Other points-
Vougeot- a minefield,no matter how carefully one treads,there is still a high probability of getting blown up!
Leroy- despite the suggestions of self promotion etc, I have to say that she has earnt her pre eminent status. I have only ever tried two Leroy wines,and they were both incredible expressions of the pinot noir. Tasted alongside Chambertin, Corton and Eschezeaux and others,a Leroy NSG Les Rugiens 1er just stood out like a beacon on one occasion,very impressive. Frighfully expensive now though,but thats what happens when your track record is as good as hers.
Cheers
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David Lole
Grant,
Thanks for your reply to our threads. Seems we're in general agreement about the role of producers.
FWIW, served a J. J. Confuron 1990 Chambolle-Musigny (Village) not so long ago that my wine group buddies picked as Premier and Grand Cru (no-one went Village, the third option) between them, with roughly an even spread between both, if my memory serves me correctly. The wine had everything one looks for in a top Burgundy - freshness, sap, game, plums, violets, excellent weight, amazing length, silky all the way through and surprisingly, a fine tannin backbone lurking amongst all the fruit. No sign of decay either. For a village - just fantastic! Tip my hat to Jean-Jacques for amazing QPR in such a wine.
Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year
Thanks for your reply to our threads. Seems we're in general agreement about the role of producers.
FWIW, served a J. J. Confuron 1990 Chambolle-Musigny (Village) not so long ago that my wine group buddies picked as Premier and Grand Cru (no-one went Village, the third option) between them, with roughly an even spread between both, if my memory serves me correctly. The wine had everything one looks for in a top Burgundy - freshness, sap, game, plums, violets, excellent weight, amazing length, silky all the way through and surprisingly, a fine tannin backbone lurking amongst all the fruit. No sign of decay either. For a village - just fantastic! Tip my hat to Jean-Jacques for amazing QPR in such a wine.
Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year
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Michael
Grant Dodd wrote:David/Michael,
Agree that the producer is the major factor if you take Burgundy as a whole. My point was more relative to the Grand Cru question as presented in the exercise. Given the proximity of all the vineyards to each other,and the lack of any real technical aids as that of which we have now,I just find it remarkable that the superiority of La Tache and Romanee Conti could be so accurately identified 150 years ago.
Other points-
Vougeot- a minefield,no matter how carefully one treads,there is still a high probability of getting blown up!
Leroy- despite the suggestions of self promotion etc, I have to say that she has earnt her pre eminent status. I have only ever tried two Leroy wines,and they were both incredible expressions of the pinot noir. Tasted alongside Chambertin, Corton and Eschezeaux and others,a Leroy NSG Les Rugiens 1er just stood out like a beacon on one occasion,very impressive. Frighfully expensive now though,but thats what happens when your track record is as good as hers.
Cheers
Hi Grant,
a couple of things, the romanee conti has been worked since the dark ages, so it wasn't such a big call 150 years ago. What i do find amazing is the import it gives the concept of terroir, especially if we interpolate lamarches grand rue. this site, lies in between romanee conti, tache, roamnee st vivant and the bouchard monopole la romanee. it is magnificently sited, but the wine is rubbish or at least lots below what you might expect. by all logic it should be great, but it never has been, which makes it's recent elevation to grand cru status ever more puzzling.
Also, I am pretty sure the rugiens you refer to from leroy is actually a pommard, where les rugiens is a strong candidate for grand cru status.
Lalou bize only started producing wines at leroy in 1989, before taking over officially in 1991 - her reign is a new one. though it has been glorious in it's brevity. older leroys, are from the negotiant house.
Also, I don't think many people would support the notion that beauxmonts should be grand cru. I wonder if her strident view has anything to do with the fact that this is by far her largest land holding, equal to the size of her other holdings summed together. I'd want my largest tract to be grand cru too
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Grant Dodd
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Michael,
Sorry,the NSG was the Aux Boudots,the Les Rugiens was the other Leroy I had tried,not as good as the former though.
The Le Grand Rue question is an interesting one. It is no more than 5 metres in separation from Romanee Conti,yet produces nothing like the quality of wine. My friend who was telling me the story of the tasting though said that the one they had was quite impressive,not sure of the year.
Merry X-mas
Sorry,the NSG was the Aux Boudots,the Les Rugiens was the other Leroy I had tried,not as good as the former though.
The Le Grand Rue question is an interesting one. It is no more than 5 metres in separation from Romanee Conti,yet produces nothing like the quality of wine. My friend who was telling me the story of the tasting though said that the one they had was quite impressive,not sure of the year.
Merry X-mas
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Guest
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Michael
Guest wrote:Engel 1996 Vougeot is a great wine....brilliant depth and length.
Anne Gros Vougeot is awesome.
OK, many aren't that flash but some are great.
Guest,
Can't agree. Engel is a pretty much 3rd rate producer, making fairly basic wines. They have plenty of oak, good colours from a whack of cold soaking, but no real finesse in my opinion.
Anne Gros? Is this domaine Anne or AF gros? presuming it's Anne, hmmm... the wine can be pretty good, but very inconsistent. Very hard and austere when young. Nothing to suggest a great terroir here. Jean Grivot's can also be quite good, but again very inconsistent.
Side point does inconsistent production, from good producers (Gros & Grivot), weigh against a terroir? I personally think it does. If you consider they are very consistent with their great terroirs - both make a wonderful richebourg.
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Michael
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Guest
Hi Michael,
I've visited Engel a few times and drunk many of his wines and they are first rate. His 1992s are better than nearly everyones.....DRC included.
His 1996s are awesome. He makes very fine wine in poor and great years. Coates, the Revuse de vin de France and many others rate him very highly. Where does your information come from to question him so? Have you drunk many of his wines.
Anne Gros is making better wines easily that A&F Gros and Anne Fraccoise Gros and also better than Michel who lots his Richebourg a couple of years back. She is THE best maker of Richebourg now.....better than Leroy and DRC. Her Vougeot is superb.
Check the wines out if you see them around.
Cheers.
I've visited Engel a few times and drunk many of his wines and they are first rate. His 1992s are better than nearly everyones.....DRC included.
His 1996s are awesome. He makes very fine wine in poor and great years. Coates, the Revuse de vin de France and many others rate him very highly. Where does your information come from to question him so? Have you drunk many of his wines.
Anne Gros is making better wines easily that A&F Gros and Anne Fraccoise Gros and also better than Michel who lots his Richebourg a couple of years back. She is THE best maker of Richebourg now.....better than Leroy and DRC. Her Vougeot is superb.
Check the wines out if you see them around.
Cheers.
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David Lole
Hello, once again, Guest,
Been a while since we've heard from you. So HNY and all that.
I agree with you on Engel and Anne Gros. Can't speak about their Richebourg (don't have any), but, I do have some Vougeot from both and concur their pretty damn smart. Vougeot, as a vineyard, cops such a pounding as a perennial underachiever, it's been nice to, occasionally, pick up back vintages of the above and others like Hudelot-Noellat, Dr. Georges Mugneret (or Mugneret-Gibourg, not sure which?), Jadot and Confuron at well below current retail prices. It's all in the pickin', I suppose.
Been a while since we've heard from you. So HNY and all that.
I agree with you on Engel and Anne Gros. Can't speak about their Richebourg (don't have any), but, I do have some Vougeot from both and concur their pretty damn smart. Vougeot, as a vineyard, cops such a pounding as a perennial underachiever, it's been nice to, occasionally, pick up back vintages of the above and others like Hudelot-Noellat, Dr. Georges Mugneret (or Mugneret-Gibourg, not sure which?), Jadot and Confuron at well below current retail prices. It's all in the pickin', I suppose.
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Michael
Interesting.
Obviously I disagree with you on Engel, but hey, horses for courses and all that.
Your 1992 comment is odd, for a start it's a very average year for Red's and the DRC comment is more informative of you I think. Perhaps you would share with us which 1992's you are referring to.
As for Anne Gros, you would be aware that AF Gros & Anne and Francois Gros are
1. the same estate, and
2. the same Anne Gros as Domaine Anne Gros, which is a specialised domaine bottling from this husband wife combo.
3. Michel traded his richebourg back to Anne & Francois in return for some vines to turn one of his 1er cru's into a monopole.
Once again I think this is quite illuminating.
The house style of Anne's Richebourg is quite particular perhaps you could explain what about it you feel is superior to the other producer's offerings?
Best,
M
Obviously I disagree with you on Engel, but hey, horses for courses and all that.
Your 1992 comment is odd, for a start it's a very average year for Red's and the DRC comment is more informative of you I think. Perhaps you would share with us which 1992's you are referring to.
As for Anne Gros, you would be aware that AF Gros & Anne and Francois Gros are
1. the same estate, and
2. the same Anne Gros as Domaine Anne Gros, which is a specialised domaine bottling from this husband wife combo.
3. Michel traded his richebourg back to Anne & Francois in return for some vines to turn one of his 1er cru's into a monopole.
Once again I think this is quite illuminating.
The house style of Anne's Richebourg is quite particular perhaps you could explain what about it you feel is superior to the other producer's offerings?
Best,
M
Guest wrote:Hi Michael,
I've visited Engel a few times and drunk many of his wines and they are first rate. His 1992s are better than nearly everyones.....DRC included.
His 1996s are awesome. He makes very fine wine in poor and great years. Coates, the Revuse de vin de France and many others rate him very highly. Where does your information come from to question him so? Have you drunk many of his wines.
Anne Gros is making better wines easily that A&F Gros and Anne Fraccoise Gros and also better than Michel who lots his Richebourg a couple of years back. She is THE best maker of Richebourg now.....better than Leroy and DRC. Her Vougeot is superb.
Check the wines out if you see them around.
Cheers.
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Guest
Hi Michael and David.
Michael, you didn;t answer the question. Have you tried many Engel wines? David seems to know them and cellar them.
My 1992 comment is illuminating....about me? Why's that? Yes, I know 1992 is a lesser year. That's exactly why I mentioned it and followed with 1996; a great year. That's the point. A great maker in poor and great years is a great maker. I have tried about 600 1992 reds and visited about 50 makers and tried the wines in Burgundy. I have drunk them over the past decade here and in France. And you?
Engel and Leroy made the best 1992s. Better than DRC, Rousseau, Vogue et al.
Anne Gros is Anne Gros. That is it. She has her own cellar and vines. She is not a sub label or off shoot. AF Gros is not the same as Anne Gros. AF Gros is made by Michel Gros, not Anne. AF stands for Anne Francoise, not Anne and Francois. Note the e and lack of e. Feminine and one person. Masculine without and is wife and husband. I made a mistake to the other day to say Anne Francoise....I should have said Frere and Seour. I have visited Anne on many occasions and agree with Coates. Her Richebourg is powerful, compex, balanced and pure. It is ageworthy and has wonderful harmony. It is not a caricature like the stalky wines from Leroy or DRC and is only matched for purity by occasional wines from Michel or Hudelot Noellat. What is your experience with her wines?
You again say you think something is quite illuminating. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is it similiar to me asking if your error re AF Gros being made by Anne rather than it actually being made by Michel is 'quite illuminating'?
But please do tell of the wines from these makers you've consumed so we can compare tasting thoughts.
David, you're a smart buyer and a fortunate man to have these wines in your cellar!
Cheers.
Michael, you didn;t answer the question. Have you tried many Engel wines? David seems to know them and cellar them.
My 1992 comment is illuminating....about me? Why's that? Yes, I know 1992 is a lesser year. That's exactly why I mentioned it and followed with 1996; a great year. That's the point. A great maker in poor and great years is a great maker. I have tried about 600 1992 reds and visited about 50 makers and tried the wines in Burgundy. I have drunk them over the past decade here and in France. And you?
Engel and Leroy made the best 1992s. Better than DRC, Rousseau, Vogue et al.
Anne Gros is Anne Gros. That is it. She has her own cellar and vines. She is not a sub label or off shoot. AF Gros is not the same as Anne Gros. AF Gros is made by Michel Gros, not Anne. AF stands for Anne Francoise, not Anne and Francois. Note the e and lack of e. Feminine and one person. Masculine without and is wife and husband. I made a mistake to the other day to say Anne Francoise....I should have said Frere and Seour. I have visited Anne on many occasions and agree with Coates. Her Richebourg is powerful, compex, balanced and pure. It is ageworthy and has wonderful harmony. It is not a caricature like the stalky wines from Leroy or DRC and is only matched for purity by occasional wines from Michel or Hudelot Noellat. What is your experience with her wines?
You again say you think something is quite illuminating. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is it similiar to me asking if your error re AF Gros being made by Anne rather than it actually being made by Michel is 'quite illuminating'?
But please do tell of the wines from these makers you've consumed so we can compare tasting thoughts.
David, you're a smart buyer and a fortunate man to have these wines in your cellar!
Cheers.
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Grant Dodd
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- Location: Queensland
- Contact:
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Guest
Guest wrote:Hi Michael and David.
Michael, you didn;t answer the question. Have you tried many Engel wines? David seems to know them and cellar them.
My 1992 comment is illuminating....about me? Why's that? Yes, I know 1992 is a lesser year. That's exactly why I mentioned it and followed with 1996; a great year. That's the point. A great maker in poor and great years is a great maker. I have tried about 600 1992 reds and visited about 50 makers and tried the wines in Burgundy. I have drunk them over the past decade here and in France. And you?
Engel and Leroy made the best 1992s. Better than DRC, Rousseau, Vogue et al.
Anne Gros is Anne Gros. That is it. She has her own cellar and vines. She is not a sub label or off shoot. AF Gros is not the same as Anne Gros. AF Gros is made by Michel Gros, not Anne. AF stands for Anne Francoise, not Anne and Francois. Note the e and lack of e. Feminine and one person. Masculine without and is wife and husband. I made a mistake to the other day to say Anne Francoise....I should have said Frere and Seour. I have visited Anne on many occasions and agree with Coates. Her Richebourg is powerful, compex, balanced and pure. It is ageworthy and has wonderful harmony. It is not a caricature like the stalky wines from Leroy or DRC and is only matched for purity by occasional wines from Michel or Hudelot Noellat. What is your experience with her wines?
You again say you think something is quite illuminating. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is it similiar to me asking if your error re AF Gros being made by Anne rather than it actually being made by Michel is 'quite illuminating'?
But please do tell of the wines from these makers you've consumed so we can compare tasting thoughts.
David, you're a smart buyer and a fortunate man to have these wines in your cellar!
Cheers.
Guest,
I am not going to go around in circles with you on this, there is little to be gained. I have a few clarifications to conclude my involvement.
Francoise is Anne's Father, who is formerly of Anne et Francoise, who stopped production in 1995, to be become Domaine Anne Gros.
Francois is Francois Parent her husband, who makes the wines of AF gros, along with those under his name. These are points of record and very easy to verify. Suggest you do so, and stop making things up to suit yourself. Your statements about these estates are plain wrong.
Gros frere & sons has nothing to do with this debate, other than the wines are made by Michel's brother Bernard. Michel does not have any richebourg, and does not make the wine for Anne or her Husband.
As for your 600 wines and 50 wineries, that sounds like the extent of your trip in 1992 - non? maybe you went back in 1996?
I referenced in my first post that I find Engel's wines overwrought, with too much new oak and cold soaking. So, what do you think - am I making that up, or have I tried the wines?
As for Anne's Richebourg, I have sporadic holdings, and mostly buy AF each year. Your description of these wines is unsurprisingly inaccurate. Leroy and DRC are not Stalky, that is ludicrous, as I suspect are you. Hudellot Noellat's plot and that of Leroy's abut each other (and were once joined), and leroy produces to lower yields. Either you copied someone's note, or you made it up. Richebourg is a dense, muscular wine essentially, and Anne's is a very modern interpretation. Backward upon release, heavy new oak, and slightly international in style thanks to abundant use of reverse osmosis concentrating machines.
Certainly a brooding style made for the very long haul, they rarely show well under 5 - 7 years of age.
I would ask you to tell me more about the Michel Gros Richebourgs, but I am afraid that you might
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Guessed?
Hi Michael,
well, perhaps things aren't as simple as you and I have made them to be!
You mentioned AF Gros and Anne Gros are the some maker. Not true. Check the AF Gros website and Anne Gros' website. AF is for Anne Francoise Gros, married to Parent. Based in Pommard I believe. The Gros vines here come from Jean Gros, brother of Francois Gros. Anne, Anne Francoise's cousin, gets her vines from her dad, Francois Gros. Anne Gros in Vosne Romanee is not the Anne Anne Francoise married to Francois Parent. That is her cousin's husband. They, not Anne, have the twin Domaines. I wasn't talking about them. It was just Anne I was talking of. She is not married to Francois Parent. But is to some lucky French chap she met at Rosemount!
You wrote
'As for Anne Gros, you would be aware that AF Gros & Anne and Francois Gros are
1. the same estate, and
2. the same Anne Gros as Domaine Anne Gros, which is a specialised domaine bottling from this husband wife combo.
3. Michel traded his richebourg back to Anne & Francois in return for some vines to turn one of his 1er cru's into a monopole.
Once again I think this is quite illuminating.'
What do you reckon? Are we getting there?!?!
Grant, sorry to offend with the DRC/Leroy lines but do you not think the 100% stalks show in these wines? In cooler years they really show and when drunk alongside de stemmed wines like Jayer the stalkiness really shows. Not necessarily a bad thing as the complexity is greater with stalk and the tannin firmer but they never have the same purity of pinot fruit as the destemmed wines. They may be purity of Burgundy but not the primary fruit. Depends what you like I guess. Philip Jones at Bass Philip hates a lot of stalkiness but loves many DRC wines but questions stalky wines like older Bannockburns.
Michael, I have tasted lots of great Burgundies her and there since 1992 so my experience wasn't just the one vintage. Engel uses about 70% new wood on the GCs and about 30% on the lower wines. I've not been overwhelmed by oak nor are the colours deep as would be the result of lots of cold soaking. For cold soaked wines look at the older Mortet wines!
Oh, by the way, Francoise is not Annes father, he was Francois. Confusingly the same name as Anne's cousin's Anne Francoice's husband, Francois!!! Parent that is. Of Pommard, not Vosne!
Maybe we both are wrong?!
I found a web site article that says AF Gros is made by Michel Gros. The AF Gros talks about Anne Francoise (AF) being with Francois in Pommard making the wines. Interesting.
OK. What other points left? Leroy and DRC not stalky? 100% stemms, yes? As I said above, you can certainly taste them. It's not ludicrous. Had a lunch with 6 DRC Richebourgs and a few Leroys and a Jayer recently and the stemms shone, particularly in the leaner years. Everyone there agreed. Winemakers, retailers, consumers. But as I mentioned above, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Michael, you said
'Anne Gros? Is this domaine Anne or AF gros? presuming it's Anne, hmmm... the wine can be pretty good, but very inconsistent. Very hard and austere when young. Nothing to suggest a great terroir here. Jean Grivot's can also be quite good, but again very inconsistent.'
then
'Anne's is a very modern interpretation. Backward upon release, heavy new oak, and slightly international in style...'
How is hard and austere consistent with international? International is forward and juicy fruited for immediate appeal rather than hard and austere. But I agree, the backward is consistent with austere! Which way are you swinging on this one?
Overall, this bloody discussion proves a few things, Burgundy and the Gros family are really diverse and confusing. Burgundy drinkers spend too much time on the detail and should get over it all and move to the more comprehendable and consistent shiraz!
All the best.
well, perhaps things aren't as simple as you and I have made them to be!
You mentioned AF Gros and Anne Gros are the some maker. Not true. Check the AF Gros website and Anne Gros' website. AF is for Anne Francoise Gros, married to Parent. Based in Pommard I believe. The Gros vines here come from Jean Gros, brother of Francois Gros. Anne, Anne Francoise's cousin, gets her vines from her dad, Francois Gros. Anne Gros in Vosne Romanee is not the Anne Anne Francoise married to Francois Parent. That is her cousin's husband. They, not Anne, have the twin Domaines. I wasn't talking about them. It was just Anne I was talking of. She is not married to Francois Parent. But is to some lucky French chap she met at Rosemount!
You wrote
'As for Anne Gros, you would be aware that AF Gros & Anne and Francois Gros are
1. the same estate, and
2. the same Anne Gros as Domaine Anne Gros, which is a specialised domaine bottling from this husband wife combo.
3. Michel traded his richebourg back to Anne & Francois in return for some vines to turn one of his 1er cru's into a monopole.
Once again I think this is quite illuminating.'
What do you reckon? Are we getting there?!?!
Grant, sorry to offend with the DRC/Leroy lines but do you not think the 100% stalks show in these wines? In cooler years they really show and when drunk alongside de stemmed wines like Jayer the stalkiness really shows. Not necessarily a bad thing as the complexity is greater with stalk and the tannin firmer but they never have the same purity of pinot fruit as the destemmed wines. They may be purity of Burgundy but not the primary fruit. Depends what you like I guess. Philip Jones at Bass Philip hates a lot of stalkiness but loves many DRC wines but questions stalky wines like older Bannockburns.
Michael, I have tasted lots of great Burgundies her and there since 1992 so my experience wasn't just the one vintage. Engel uses about 70% new wood on the GCs and about 30% on the lower wines. I've not been overwhelmed by oak nor are the colours deep as would be the result of lots of cold soaking. For cold soaked wines look at the older Mortet wines!
Oh, by the way, Francoise is not Annes father, he was Francois. Confusingly the same name as Anne's cousin's Anne Francoice's husband, Francois!!! Parent that is. Of Pommard, not Vosne!
Maybe we both are wrong?!
I found a web site article that says AF Gros is made by Michel Gros. The AF Gros talks about Anne Francoise (AF) being with Francois in Pommard making the wines. Interesting.
OK. What other points left? Leroy and DRC not stalky? 100% stemms, yes? As I said above, you can certainly taste them. It's not ludicrous. Had a lunch with 6 DRC Richebourgs and a few Leroys and a Jayer recently and the stemms shone, particularly in the leaner years. Everyone there agreed. Winemakers, retailers, consumers. But as I mentioned above, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Michael, you said
'Anne Gros? Is this domaine Anne or AF gros? presuming it's Anne, hmmm... the wine can be pretty good, but very inconsistent. Very hard and austere when young. Nothing to suggest a great terroir here. Jean Grivot's can also be quite good, but again very inconsistent.'
then
'Anne's is a very modern interpretation. Backward upon release, heavy new oak, and slightly international in style...'
How is hard and austere consistent with international? International is forward and juicy fruited for immediate appeal rather than hard and austere. But I agree, the backward is consistent with austere! Which way are you swinging on this one?
Overall, this bloody discussion proves a few things, Burgundy and the Gros family are really diverse and confusing. Burgundy drinkers spend too much time on the detail and should get over it all and move to the more comprehendable and consistent shiraz!
All the best.
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Michael
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Guest 1
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Guessed?