It seems that quite a few wineries are now charging around $5 for a tasting. I don't particularly agree with this and I know that if you buy, the $5 is reimbursed.
It is only a small charge but why should I pay for tasting when the wineries are promoting their wines?
What is your opinion on this charge?
Cheers
Natalie
Tasting Charge
In the end, wineries need to pay to promote in newspapers and other mediums, and cellar doors are a cost too.
They work. I used to buy heaps of delegats wines for example as their cellar door was the best in the country. I still have bottles of their excellent 98 Cab. They closed the cellar door years ago. i havent bought a single delegats wine since.
You want to discourage free riding without being unpleasant about it.
Sometimes its nice to pay to try when you really dont want to buy either before or after trying. Removes the pressure from the taster to buy as par for the course
Personally i think a balance is best. free try of estate range, charge for reserves?? the other approach to refund on purchase also is better than a straight charge. As a regular customer of a few wineries I often just get the fee waived as they know i buy and cellar their wines. Discretion is good.
The wineries that best manage the cost benefit line, will be the most successful at maximising their return on investment
They work. I used to buy heaps of delegats wines for example as their cellar door was the best in the country. I still have bottles of their excellent 98 Cab. They closed the cellar door years ago. i havent bought a single delegats wine since.
You want to discourage free riding without being unpleasant about it.
Sometimes its nice to pay to try when you really dont want to buy either before or after trying. Removes the pressure from the taster to buy as par for the course
Personally i think a balance is best. free try of estate range, charge for reserves?? the other approach to refund on purchase also is better than a straight charge. As a regular customer of a few wineries I often just get the fee waived as they know i buy and cellar their wines. Discretion is good.
The wineries that best manage the cost benefit line, will be the most successful at maximising their return on investment
Follow me on Vivino for tasting notes Craig Thomson
Natalie,
Two sides to every story...
I am not a fan of charging for tastings, but I only take particular issue with wineries that do not refund on purchase, or do not provide an experience that warrants the tasting fee.
Somewhere like a Chandon or Shaw & Smith you will pay a fee, you can see that they go to some effort to enhance the CD experience, but others (Gibbston Valley springs to mind recently) leave me feeling very much short changed.
Operating a CD is a promotional exercise, but unlike the bigger companies the majority of smaller owner operators rely on CD as a major income stream, and may understandably use a tasting fee to assist with the many costs associated with running a CD and also ward off tyre kickers. Being able to promote your wines is a very good thing, but it doesn't always put money in the till.
LL
Two sides to every story...
I am not a fan of charging for tastings, but I only take particular issue with wineries that do not refund on purchase, or do not provide an experience that warrants the tasting fee.
Somewhere like a Chandon or Shaw & Smith you will pay a fee, you can see that they go to some effort to enhance the CD experience, but others (Gibbston Valley springs to mind recently) leave me feeling very much short changed.
Operating a CD is a promotional exercise, but unlike the bigger companies the majority of smaller owner operators rely on CD as a major income stream, and may understandably use a tasting fee to assist with the many costs associated with running a CD and also ward off tyre kickers. Being able to promote your wines is a very good thing, but it doesn't always put money in the till.
LL
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Michael McNally
- Posts: 2084
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:06 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Personally I don't mind a small, refundable fee. I am not sure $5 fits the "small" description, but it certainly makes it much easier to walk away without buying a bottle when you have nice people serving you but the wines aren't much chop. These are the circumstances where I often buy a bottle when I shouldn't.
On the other hand, where the wines aren't much chop and the service is mundane, I have no problem walking away regardless of whether I have paid some kind of fee.
I hope cellar doors never die as they are one of my favourite places on the planet!
Michael
On the other hand, where the wines aren't much chop and the service is mundane, I have no problem walking away regardless of whether I have paid some kind of fee.
I hope cellar doors never die as they are one of my favourite places on the planet!
Michael
Bonum Vinum Laetificat Cor Hominis
In some respects I often prefer there is a "small" tasting fee - though it's not usually as much as $5 - when visiting small makers . Often unfortunately with many of the artisan makers many wines have basic faults such as VA, mercaptans oxidiation etc. And yet around the next corner another small maker will have an extraordinary selection of wines - oftebn a maker you have never heard of. I can leave the former with out any guilty conscious and buy happily at the later.
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Grey Ghost
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:28 pm
- Location: NZ
The points made above are valid - cellar-doors have an influence on longer term sales. They are, generally, a loss making exercise for the majority of wineries, even at 67% margin.
Assuming a cellar-door that has to be staffed say 10am to 6pm on seven days = $900 in wages as a minimum.
This means, even with the full margin, that just to cover wages the winery has to sell 133 bottles a week. Then there is the cost (note, not the loss of profits), on the wine served - usually a new bottle opened every day. Now add a return on the electricity and other indirect costs (glassware, often Riedel Tasting stemware these days) and a return on the capital invested in the facility and you have to be on a tourist route (and a very busy one) to justify the costs.
Frankly, except for very small wineries, I think any charge is self-defeating and causes more ill-feeling with the visitors than it is worth. The cellar-door is promotional (though it can't be written off as such under the tax code - only the wages can be discounted), and once that commitment has been made - the financial and stock loss just has to be accepted.
For a small family operation, the costs are reduced (not eliminated) and a refundable charge of say $2.00 to $5.00 is acceptable. As visitors we may be asking them to open one of a very limited number of bottles made. Even here however, I question whether it is wise.
So how to discourage the "tyre-kickers" and tour buses (45 tyre-kickers at a time). I remember, many years ago, the Squire Vineyard in the Hunter narrowed the entry gate to 1.9m ... few buses were willing to squeeze through. They also had a large notice saying "The Home of Red Wine" (though they had whites). Both ploys worked well - but that was in the 70s, when whites were all the rage and wine-tourism was very small. Once you worked passed thes dis-encouragements, tastings were free however.
Tulloch's was a hot tin shed - with the wine served in small shot glasses from a row of bottles standing along a wooden bench. One of the Tulloch men would stump out from the back (from the winery), gesture at a row of bottles and say "There yer go, if you want to buy, give us a cooeee." and stump back into the winery. Times change.
Assuming a cellar-door that has to be staffed say 10am to 6pm on seven days = $900 in wages as a minimum.
This means, even with the full margin, that just to cover wages the winery has to sell 133 bottles a week. Then there is the cost (note, not the loss of profits), on the wine served - usually a new bottle opened every day. Now add a return on the electricity and other indirect costs (glassware, often Riedel Tasting stemware these days) and a return on the capital invested in the facility and you have to be on a tourist route (and a very busy one) to justify the costs.
Frankly, except for very small wineries, I think any charge is self-defeating and causes more ill-feeling with the visitors than it is worth. The cellar-door is promotional (though it can't be written off as such under the tax code - only the wages can be discounted), and once that commitment has been made - the financial and stock loss just has to be accepted.
For a small family operation, the costs are reduced (not eliminated) and a refundable charge of say $2.00 to $5.00 is acceptable. As visitors we may be asking them to open one of a very limited number of bottles made. Even here however, I question whether it is wise.
So how to discourage the "tyre-kickers" and tour buses (45 tyre-kickers at a time). I remember, many years ago, the Squire Vineyard in the Hunter narrowed the entry gate to 1.9m ... few buses were willing to squeeze through. They also had a large notice saying "The Home of Red Wine" (though they had whites). Both ploys worked well - but that was in the 70s, when whites were all the rage and wine-tourism was very small. Once you worked passed thes dis-encouragements, tastings were free however.
Tulloch's was a hot tin shed - with the wine served in small shot glasses from a row of bottles standing along a wooden bench. One of the Tulloch men would stump out from the back (from the winery), gesture at a row of bottles and say "There yer go, if you want to buy, give us a cooeee." and stump back into the winery. Times change.
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KMP
- Posts: 1246
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- Location: Expat, now in San Diego, California
- Contact:
On any given Saturday I can taste 6 wines that may range in price from less than $10 to 60+ per bottle (retail price) for the extravagant fee of $5! So when I actually do go into wine country, and belly up to the tasting bar at a cellar door, I have that sort of value in mind. If I get hit with a $20 charge for three wines, even if they cost north of $55 per bottle, I’m usually not impressed; Stonyridge on Waiheke Island, NZ comes to mind.
Tasting fees are common in Napa Valley. A tasting of three Cabernet Sauvignons made by Whitehall Lane cost me $20 about 3-4 years ago. The wines were library and reserve levels. The tasting glass came with the tasting, and a little pleasant conversation about the wines got us a second one. Reasonable value? For passable examples of California Cab that cost $75-100 per bottle it just made the grade, the glasses pushed it over line into a good value.
The problem with many cellar doors where there is no fee is that, very often, you don’t get to see their top of the line wines. There are likely different explanations for this, but I think that many feel that the average visitor is a tourist and not a serious wine drinker/buyer. For example, Penfolds wants $150 to taste six Penfolds super premium wines, including Grange, accompanied by a platter of regional cheeses and a tour of Magill Estate. While that may sort the serious from the visitor, I’ll pass just the same, thank you.
Even if charging to taste the “reserve†line, or library wines, is one approach to identifying the serious wine buyer, it should be reasonable. Seppeltsfield does this with their fortifieds. A tasting that includes the 100yo Para and a winery tour cost $50 in 2005. We didn’t mind the $50 for that tasting but 2+ hours for a tour when we had other appointments? No, and thank goodness the lady behind the counter understood that. Is there that much difference in price between Grange and the 100 yo Para? I didn’t think so.
Torbreck seem to have it sorted out. A refundable $5 (in 2004 anyway) to taste through much of their line, including Descendant, RunRig etc. That is real value.
And cellar doors that have their line-up on a table with a few nibbles but no staff available to attend to you? Well if they are not interested in interacting with the public, then that may explain why serious wine drinkers don’t hang around to join in the party; Huntington Estate in Mudgee comes to mind.
Mike
Tasting fees are common in Napa Valley. A tasting of three Cabernet Sauvignons made by Whitehall Lane cost me $20 about 3-4 years ago. The wines were library and reserve levels. The tasting glass came with the tasting, and a little pleasant conversation about the wines got us a second one. Reasonable value? For passable examples of California Cab that cost $75-100 per bottle it just made the grade, the glasses pushed it over line into a good value.
The problem with many cellar doors where there is no fee is that, very often, you don’t get to see their top of the line wines. There are likely different explanations for this, but I think that many feel that the average visitor is a tourist and not a serious wine drinker/buyer. For example, Penfolds wants $150 to taste six Penfolds super premium wines, including Grange, accompanied by a platter of regional cheeses and a tour of Magill Estate. While that may sort the serious from the visitor, I’ll pass just the same, thank you.
Even if charging to taste the “reserve†line, or library wines, is one approach to identifying the serious wine buyer, it should be reasonable. Seppeltsfield does this with their fortifieds. A tasting that includes the 100yo Para and a winery tour cost $50 in 2005. We didn’t mind the $50 for that tasting but 2+ hours for a tour when we had other appointments? No, and thank goodness the lady behind the counter understood that. Is there that much difference in price between Grange and the 100 yo Para? I didn’t think so.
Torbreck seem to have it sorted out. A refundable $5 (in 2004 anyway) to taste through much of their line, including Descendant, RunRig etc. That is real value.
And cellar doors that have their line-up on a table with a few nibbles but no staff available to attend to you? Well if they are not interested in interacting with the public, then that may explain why serious wine drinkers don’t hang around to join in the party; Huntington Estate in Mudgee comes to mind.
Mike
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Ratcatcher
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Hobart
Here, here Mike. Totally agree. I was peeved I couldnt taste anything more expensive than a 389 at Penfolds, unless I coughed up a huge sum, in which case, I may as well have bought a bottle instead.
Torbrecks and Two Hands decided not to charge me the tasting fee after knowing I was there for some serious tasting.
Grey Ghost mentioned the costs, but what about the marketing and goodwill created with a CD? I know I have not bought wines at many CDs, but if the product is good, I have gone on to recommend them to friends, and given positive feedback on forums such as this one, and would purchase from them in future. Unless they are a huge company, how else does the little guy market his product? Blurbs in some rag do no good, critics, well, everyone has different tastes, the proof is in the tasting!
Torbrecks and Two Hands decided not to charge me the tasting fee after knowing I was there for some serious tasting.
Grey Ghost mentioned the costs, but what about the marketing and goodwill created with a CD? I know I have not bought wines at many CDs, but if the product is good, I have gone on to recommend them to friends, and given positive feedback on forums such as this one, and would purchase from them in future. Unless they are a huge company, how else does the little guy market his product? Blurbs in some rag do no good, critics, well, everyone has different tastes, the proof is in the tasting!
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Grey Ghost
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:28 pm
- Location: NZ
Derek,
I agree, but this is exactly the point I was attempting to make - that charging creates ill-will.
Your point on goodwill is valid - however it too has a "cost" that maybe out of proportion for a small winery - or even a large one with a specialised ultra-premium.
To put numbers on it as an example; assume an ultra-premium of 100 cases - 1200 bottles. You, the winemaker, wish to present this at its very best (after all it is your very blood and soul that you are selling), therefore you needs open a fresh bottle every day it is tasted. That is 363 bottles a year!
You now have to recover this cost from the margin on your remaining 800 odd bottles. Put another way - you will need to increase the retail on the balance by 50%!
Whether this is Grange or the small boutique maker, moving from say $50 to say $70 is a big ask of your regular customers ... just so as the Grey Ghost and sundry others can taste the wine for nothing.
When the Pirate Three visit (RB, TORB & The Pie King), by appointment, opening one bottle is not a problem; giving all and sundry tyre-kickers a free taste is another matter altogether. And unless the "serious wine drinker" is known to the producer - making exceptions is very difficult.
There are two sides to every story. In general that of the customer usually prevails - at times this isn't practical. You can sell every bottle of your ultra premium several times over - at what cost then, does "promotion" come at?
GG
I agree, but this is exactly the point I was attempting to make - that charging creates ill-will.
Your point on goodwill is valid - however it too has a "cost" that maybe out of proportion for a small winery - or even a large one with a specialised ultra-premium.
To put numbers on it as an example; assume an ultra-premium of 100 cases - 1200 bottles. You, the winemaker, wish to present this at its very best (after all it is your very blood and soul that you are selling), therefore you needs open a fresh bottle every day it is tasted. That is 363 bottles a year!
You now have to recover this cost from the margin on your remaining 800 odd bottles. Put another way - you will need to increase the retail on the balance by 50%!
Whether this is Grange or the small boutique maker, moving from say $50 to say $70 is a big ask of your regular customers ... just so as the Grey Ghost and sundry others can taste the wine for nothing.
When the Pirate Three visit (RB, TORB & The Pie King), by appointment, opening one bottle is not a problem; giving all and sundry tyre-kickers a free taste is another matter altogether. And unless the "serious wine drinker" is known to the producer - making exceptions is very difficult.
There are two sides to every story. In general that of the customer usually prevails - at times this isn't practical. You can sell every bottle of your ultra premium several times over - at what cost then, does "promotion" come at?
GG
I am very happy to pay for tastings, and in most cases I prefer it.
Usually I am visiting wine regions away from home and do not want to purchase significant (or any) quantities of wine, but would like to taste the range of wines available. A small tasting fee ($5-10) enables me to taste as many wines as I wish without feeling the the need to purchase something. And I thought the $5 I spent at Torbreck was a bargain, given what was on offer.
But I didn't pay to go thru Penfolds - too expensive for the value.
Gibbston Valley in Otago offers a tasting tray for ~$6 IIRC; you get 6 wines with notes on a tray, take it outside and sit down, glasses are big enough for 2 to share - lovely!
I was quite amazed to see the busloads rolling thru the Barossa wineries, swilling the wine at no cost, and promptly leaving. I hope the bus companies compensate the wineries?
Free tasting does create goodwill though; l was so well looked after at Grant Burge both in terms of range of wine, and personal touches that I now but a lot more their wine.
As for charging creating ill-will - well it does at some point, but why, if you like the winery you are visiting and want them to continue making good wines for your pleasure, would you not mind contributing a small cost to cover their expenses?
Finally I will say that, if I am paying, then I do expect service - someone who can tell me which the wine came from, how they made it, and what the winery is trying to achieve with this wine - the winemakers wife is often brilliant!
Rob
Usually I am visiting wine regions away from home and do not want to purchase significant (or any) quantities of wine, but would like to taste the range of wines available. A small tasting fee ($5-10) enables me to taste as many wines as I wish without feeling the the need to purchase something. And I thought the $5 I spent at Torbreck was a bargain, given what was on offer.
But I didn't pay to go thru Penfolds - too expensive for the value.
Gibbston Valley in Otago offers a tasting tray for ~$6 IIRC; you get 6 wines with notes on a tray, take it outside and sit down, glasses are big enough for 2 to share - lovely!
I was quite amazed to see the busloads rolling thru the Barossa wineries, swilling the wine at no cost, and promptly leaving. I hope the bus companies compensate the wineries?
Free tasting does create goodwill though; l was so well looked after at Grant Burge both in terms of range of wine, and personal touches that I now but a lot more their wine.
As for charging creating ill-will - well it does at some point, but why, if you like the winery you are visiting and want them to continue making good wines for your pleasure, would you not mind contributing a small cost to cover their expenses?
Finally I will say that, if I am paying, then I do expect service - someone who can tell me which the wine came from, how they made it, and what the winery is trying to achieve with this wine - the winemakers wife is often brilliant!
Rob
As someone who likes to visit cellar doors to 1) try before I buy, and 2) learn about as many different wine styles as I can, I would much prefer to pay $2-10 (depending on what you get) for a tasting of a full range of wines. If a winery lets me try a large range of wines, including premiums, I will always feel as if I have to buy something to compensate them, even if nothing was really worth buying. Often when nothing seems to be a good value purchase, I end up buying one of the expensive bottles, because at least I would want to drink it again. I remember buying the 2000 Mountain Blue at the Rosemount Cellar door a few years ago for $50, because it was the only wine I tasted that I would actually want to drink again, even though I only thought it was worth $30.
The result of this is that the costs of visiting cellar doors quickly stack up, which limits the number of places I can visit. As others have stated, paying an upfront fee would do away with the feeling that you need to buy some wine, which would actually make it cheaper for me in the end!
The result of this is that the costs of visiting cellar doors quickly stack up, which limits the number of places I can visit. As others have stated, paying an upfront fee would do away with the feeling that you need to buy some wine, which would actually make it cheaper for me in the end!
roughred wrote:the winemakers wife is often brilliant!
Way to offend a lot of female winemakers en masse!
Touche! You are quite correct.
But I'm sure you know what I mean. The owners children are another good source of information. I really like being able to discuss the wines with someone involved in the pruning and picking and barrelling and blending side of things. It adds to my enjoyment of the wine.
Cellardoor tasting fees'
Hate em with a passion.
Would leave a winery charging it,(unless it was something we really wanted to try)
as for it being a money loser.......if you don't do things for money you don't do them for long.
There are brand building considerations in the true value of a cellardoor.
If yours runs at a loss perhaps you should ask the real questions.
Pricing?
Location?
value?
Quality?
Image?
Do you really want a cellardoor?
Personnel?
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
smithy wrote:8) Cellardoor tasting fees'
Hate em with a passion.
"With a passion" is superfluous when it comes to Smithy expressing his views.
Seriously though, it's not one size fits all. I'd rather pay a fee, preferably refundable and get good service. But that is personal and reflects the fact that I don't like to feel obligated when I can't find a wine that really warrants me shelling out at the price asked.
It's a bit like corkage. We all know it replaces lost income for the restaraunt owner, but most of us are prepared to pay for it if our wine is treated the way we would at home. Of course, many unlicenced places don't charge at all.
With wineries, it also depends on where they fit in terms of their output, range, marketing, physical location, etc
I think Smithy does rather well without charging fees for a number of reasons all coming together. These include location (in Rutherglen terms he is miles off the beaten track), his winery is not well known to the masses, the fact that cellar door and wine club is the main source of distribtuion and therefore not price competing with big retailers, he serves a niche market (high alcohol balanced wines) that you either love or hate (I love them) and he has some good cheap "cleanskins" that a visitor can buy feeling they have value for money.
In many ways, Warrabilla could be a model example of an intelligent business strategy, in which charging a fee would not fit, but other wineries for many reasons are not as well placed.
This thread started from a visitor point of view, and I'd rather pay and not feel obligated. There are many visitors who don't feel the same way, and a winery that does not charge a fee cannot complain about freeloaders.
I have no problem with wineries charging a small ($5) refundable fee on their premium range, as long as it is purely to avoid free loaders and not a money making exercise. That is, the fee is refundable on any purchase.
Charging for everything is over the top, and I would be inclined to walk out, as how do you know the wines aren't awful? But if you can taste the base range and they are quite reasonable, I am quite happy to pay up to taste the good stuff if I know I can buy a base range product and get my 5 bucks back.
I can totally understand that expensive or highly awarded wines on free tasting would get abused by free loaders with absolutely no intention of buying. But then again you'd want to have your good wines available to the serious wine drinkers. So really, I think the refundable fee is the only option.
And by the way, from what I can gather from talking to people at Cellar doors, buses do not compensate the wineries.
Charging for everything is over the top, and I would be inclined to walk out, as how do you know the wines aren't awful? But if you can taste the base range and they are quite reasonable, I am quite happy to pay up to taste the good stuff if I know I can buy a base range product and get my 5 bucks back.
I can totally understand that expensive or highly awarded wines on free tasting would get abused by free loaders with absolutely no intention of buying. But then again you'd want to have your good wines available to the serious wine drinkers. So really, I think the refundable fee is the only option.
And by the way, from what I can gather from talking to people at Cellar doors, buses do not compensate the wineries.
Naomi
We don't get a huge number of buses, but as you never know who's going to buy what, its important to show everybody who is interested all your good stuff.
You never know which footy club bus has a few people who are mad keen on your style of wine, or have mates who are keen etc.
There is no such thing as a free loader (Don't like the term myself!) Just someone who hasn't purchased today....Hell they may have just maxed out the credit card...if the wines good, they'll be back!
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
Well as we are quickly finding out, most of the Californian wineries seem to ask for $5 for tasting - although so far this seems confined to the larger ones which ironically can probably sustain a cellar door operation within their budget more than the smaller places. This has been the case for 2/4 Russian River wineries but I am expecting this to be more or less standard for the Napa and Sonoma behemoths... with some notable occasional exceptions.
Cheers
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
Wayno wrote:Well as we are quickly finding out, most of the Californian wineries seem to ask for $5 for tasting - although so far this seems confined to the larger ones which ironically can probably sustain a cellar door operation within their budget more than the smaller places. This has been the case for 2/4 Russian River wineries but I am expecting this to be more or less standard for the Napa and Sonoma behemoths... with some notable occasional exceptions.
So with this background of experiencing widespread charging at these places in the USA, I just have to ask in your opinion Wayno:
- For the fee do you get to try the complete range of wines, or do some wineries still lock up their flagships?
- Do these places still have busloads of "free loaders" wading in to get sloshed?
- Is the level of staff service any more personalised/knowledgeable/significantly better than you're average local CD?
Cheers,
Ian
Forget about goodness and mercy, they're gone.
Cellar door Operators are a funny bread, I often sense they size you up, when deciding to get out their “premiumsâ€Â.
I’ve had some Ops especially open a premium bottle, when moving through their tasting lists.
On the other extreme one Cellar door Op recently would not open a bottle of their top wine, ($45) because it was mid-week.
I don’t mind paying for tasting, but I would possibly walk out of a CD, if I felt their range did not warrant a fee.
I agree that bus tours should be taxed.
I’ve had some Ops especially open a premium bottle, when moving through their tasting lists.
On the other extreme one Cellar door Op recently would not open a bottle of their top wine, ($45) because it was mid-week.
I don’t mind paying for tasting, but I would possibly walk out of a CD, if I felt their range did not warrant a fee.
I agree that bus tours should be taxed.
I was really disappointed to find a tasting fee at 10 x Tractor when I visited it this easter.
Although only $3 (not the $5 of many instituting this), I thought it a bit rich when considering that their two best (or at least most expensive) wines were 'sold out' and so unavailable for tasting.
To charge for a tasting, I personally expect that mid to premium wines should be available... if the most expensive thing I'm tasting is under $50 I'm not sure I think the fee is justified... especially when they have a cafe/restaurant attached that would no doubt go a long way to 'paying' for the cellar door.
Although only $3 (not the $5 of many instituting this), I thought it a bit rich when considering that their two best (or at least most expensive) wines were 'sold out' and so unavailable for tasting.
To charge for a tasting, I personally expect that mid to premium wines should be available... if the most expensive thing I'm tasting is under $50 I'm not sure I think the fee is justified... especially when they have a cafe/restaurant attached that would no doubt go a long way to 'paying' for the cellar door.
See my weekly video podcast at wineweek.com.au
n4sir wrote:Wayno wrote:Well as we are quickly finding out, most of the Californian wineries seem to ask for $5 for tasting - although so far this seems confined to the larger ones which ironically can probably sustain a cellar door operation within their budget more than the smaller places. This has been the case for 2/4 Russian River wineries but I am expecting this to be more or less standard for the Napa and Sonoma behemoths... with some notable occasional exceptions.
So with this background of experiencing widespread charging at these places in the USA, I just have to ask in your opinion Wayno:
- For the fee do you get to try the complete range of wines, or do some wineries still lock up their flagships?
- Do these places still have busloads of "free loaders" wading in to get sloshed?
- Is the level of staff service any more personalised/knowledgeable/significantly better than you're average local CD?
Napa wineries were not shy of asking $10-$15 for tasting flights by the way. I can't really answer the question(s) adequately as we lost interest in hitting Napa hard as there were too many people, too many wineries (300ish I think in an area about twice the size of Coonawarra more or less) and we were just plain sick of wine (weird I know). But basically, what I could say was that where we did go, there were quite a few people, and tastings were happening much as it does here. I think that the culture of paying for the tastings seemed more or less accepted, especially in the Napa and most probably expected it. Only one place waived the fee if you bought something but a $20 massively oaked Chardonnay was not enough to make me ditch the $10 fee at that place.
In a way, I also liked the fact that the expectation to buy something was more or less nullified by the charge although it was a quick way of tearing through precious $US and thus made the day pretty expensive if you did lots of wineries.
Some other points:- there were/are so many people there (and we were there in the off-season), the place is ridiculously overcrowded. Many of the better places require a booking to taste and someone mentioned something about this becoming a future requirement for all wineries there? Overall, the place is a good example of what a wine region can become when too much gets too much (and there are Americans involved)! Warning to Oz wine regions.
Another point- paying the tasting fee DID seem to provide better service (particularly at Clos Pegase) although the guy there seemed more interested in telling me what HE knew about Australian wine, rather than engaging in a two way conversation. Overall, the payment seemed to key in with the whole 'service culture' of the US - so it was sort of a bit like a tip in a way.
Overall, if I returned, I would roam Russian River in detail and bypass Napa. Russian River was not only one of the most beautiful wine regions I've seen but some of the wines were pretty fine (particularly a great pinot from Rochioli), it was quieter and there seemed to be less tasting fees. Napa, whilst also very scenic was too much and alas we never got to Sonoma although I understand it's not quite as bad as the Napa.
Cheers
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
Wayno
Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.
I used to love visiting Napa in the mid 90s: lovely wines at fairly reasonable prices. But then things went crazy in CA, including the cellar door tasting fees. Once you double the price of your wines (not the quality, of course!) , it's harder to not charge a tasting. $10-15 is the norm now, and that's often for just the 'basic' wines. Although there is a huge population base quite close to Napa, which does make it rather crowded.
It's become so incredibly commercialized in Napa, and many other parts of CA, I haven't been back for 6-7 years. Even Washington and Oregon are starting to charge at most wineries now (5 years ago, the winemaker was still usually pouring the wines - that doesn't happen much now).
You guys in Oz are still very lucky, but I do get the sense that things are changing there as well (I usually visit every other year). Enjoy the 'traditional' model while it lasts is my advice to you!
It's become so incredibly commercialized in Napa, and many other parts of CA, I haven't been back for 6-7 years. Even Washington and Oregon are starting to charge at most wineries now (5 years ago, the winemaker was still usually pouring the wines - that doesn't happen much now).
You guys in Oz are still very lucky, but I do get the sense that things are changing there as well (I usually visit every other year). Enjoy the 'traditional' model while it lasts is my advice to you!