Hi everyone,
I wanted to get an opinion, maybe from someone closer to the wine industry than myself, about the purpose(s) of cellar door wine tasting and wine sales at wineries from an industry perspective.
Are they set up as marketing tools - just advertisments for thier products?
Are they set up as a profitable way to sell wine by avoiding the middle man?
Are they set up to stimulate wine interest and appreciation?
I am thinking the reason would most likely be the first.
I am asking because recently I went to a certain well known Coonawarra winery during a tour of the regoin. I was suprised to find out that they did not have their cabernet on tasting, but had quite a few other varieties on tasting of comparable price. I asked if a cabernet could be opened and the reason for not having one open. We had a bit of a discussion, and in a roundabouts way the person said that they did not have cabernet open because it sells itself on reputation alone.
I was a bit miffed at this. I had gone all the way to Coonawarra to taste and buy cabernets - what the region has world acclaim for. But this place had none on offer. I didn't understand this. Whay not have your best, world famous wine on offer. It's not like it wouldn't bet used up - every tourist would have a drop. I ended up buying the cabernet anyway because I knew it would be good. However I couldn't help but feeling like a bit of a sucker.
Opinions on this matter would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Stuart
Purpose of Cellar Doors
Are they set up as a profitable way to sell wine by avoiding the middle man?
I believe this to be the number one reason and the reason you experienced what you did. It is all about making money. I think there are some PR reason but these would be small compared to profit.
Just my thoughts,
Adair
I believe this to be the number one reason and the reason you experienced what you did. It is all about making money. I think there are some PR reason but these would be small compared to profit.
Just my thoughts,
Adair
Wine is bottled poetry.
A little bit from column a, b & c. I think the most important thing to remember is that no one model fits all. Small operators may rely solely on Cellar Door to sell their broduct, whereas medium sized wineries may have varying degrees of local and national distribution. For many larger set-ups PR may be more of a focus, but even then they need to be financially viable.
I would also suggest that a lot of wineries aren't necessarily avoiding the middle man, rather they just dont have access to him. Much to do with the omni-presence and bargaining power of the larger companies...but that is a whole different argument. Most wineies would have some aspirations to growth, and the only way to achieve this is through expanded distribution.
Hopefully you're experience in Coonawarra is more the exception than the rule. I have found at most Cellar Doors if you show enough genuine interest just about anything is on tasting, or perhaps pay a small fee.
And if you are still not satisfied, come to Rutherglen where they really know about hospitality (blatant plug fully intended).
Cheers,
LL
I would also suggest that a lot of wineries aren't necessarily avoiding the middle man, rather they just dont have access to him. Much to do with the omni-presence and bargaining power of the larger companies...but that is a whole different argument. Most wineies would have some aspirations to growth, and the only way to achieve this is through expanded distribution.
Hopefully you're experience in Coonawarra is more the exception than the rule. I have found at most Cellar Doors if you show enough genuine interest just about anything is on tasting, or perhaps pay a small fee.
And if you are still not satisfied, come to Rutherglen where they really know about hospitality (blatant plug fully intended).
Cheers,
LL
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winetastic
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Sydney
I guess it would depend on the scale of the operation.
Some small boutique producers will be selling direct only/via mailing list, they are also most likely to be incredibly passionate about wine in general, so the reason is probably a mix of all three.
The large scale commecial operations probably only make a small amount of their sales at the cellar door, however as a brand recognition tool no doubt it is useful.
Some small boutique producers will be selling direct only/via mailing list, they are also most likely to be incredibly passionate about wine in general, so the reason is probably a mix of all three.
The large scale commecial operations probably only make a small amount of their sales at the cellar door, however as a brand recognition tool no doubt it is useful.
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winetastic
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Sydney
roughred wrote:A little bit from column a, b & c. I think the most important thing to remember is that no one model fits all. Small operators may rely solely on Cellar Door to sell their broduct, whereas medium sized wineries may have varying degrees of local and national distribution. For many larger set-ups PR may be more of a focus, but even then they need to be financially viable.
I would also suggest that a lot of wineries aren't necessarily avoiding the middle man, rather they just dont have access to him. Much to do with the omni-presence and bargaining power of the larger companies...but that is a whole different argument. Most wineies would have some aspirations to growth, and the only way to achieve this is through expanded distribution.
Hopefully you're experience in Coonawarra is more the exception than the rule. I have found at most Cellar Doors if you show enough genuine interest just about anything is on tasting, or perhaps pay a small fee.
And if you are still not satisfied, come to Rutherglen where they really know about hospitality (blatant plug fully intended).
Cheers,
LL
Beat me by 1min
Thinking about Delegats Cellar door in Auckland
Maybe the best in the country, really good educational place, friendly, well set up. Bought plenty there
Then Delegats went real commercial, closed the cellar door down, wine went 'monochrome supermarket trolley' and never been the same since
Last wine of theirs I bought was the 98 Cabernet which was a fantastic wine at $18. None since though.
Depends in the end the channel to market/ market position you take as to how important it is I guess
Maybe the best in the country, really good educational place, friendly, well set up. Bought plenty there
Then Delegats went real commercial, closed the cellar door down, wine went 'monochrome supermarket trolley' and never been the same since
Last wine of theirs I bought was the 98 Cabernet which was a fantastic wine at $18. None since though.
Depends in the end the channel to market/ market position you take as to how important it is I guess
Hi everyone,
Just found this great site
Newbie!!!!!
In answer to your question stuart. I think most cellar doors main purpose is for marketing purposes. But personally (as I work sales in a cellar door) it should also be about wine interest and appreciation. I like nothing more than showing customers through our list of wines, discussing, informing and answering any questions. And I believe that is what cellar doors are for. I too, would be very dissapointed if the cabernet was not available for tasting, and I think it fairly arrogant for them to say it sells itself. Even for example, if a new person to wine wanted to know the differences between, a cab and a shiraz, to decide which of these wines are more pleasing to their palate, then all wines should be available for tasting.
Cheers
Mandy
Just found this great site
Newbie!!!!!
In answer to your question stuart. I think most cellar doors main purpose is for marketing purposes. But personally (as I work sales in a cellar door) it should also be about wine interest and appreciation. I like nothing more than showing customers through our list of wines, discussing, informing and answering any questions. And I believe that is what cellar doors are for. I too, would be very dissapointed if the cabernet was not available for tasting, and I think it fairly arrogant for them to say it sells itself. Even for example, if a new person to wine wanted to know the differences between, a cab and a shiraz, to decide which of these wines are more pleasing to their palate, then all wines should be available for tasting.
Cheers
Mandy
Last edited by cassy on Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
roughred wrote:A little bit from column a, b & c. I think the most important thing to remember is that no one model fits all. Small operators may rely solely on Cellar Door to sell their broduct, whereas medium sized wineries may have varying degrees of local and national distribution. For many larger set-ups PR may be more of a focus, but even then they need to be financially viable.
I would also suggest that a lot of wineries aren't necessarily avoiding the middle man, rather they just dont have access to him. Much to do with the omni-presence and bargaining power of the larger companies...but that is a whole different argument. Most wineies would have some aspirations to growth, and the only way to achieve this is through expanded distribution.
Hopefully you're experience in Coonawarra is more the exception than the rule. I have found at most Cellar Doors if you show enough genuine interest just about anything is on tasting, or perhaps pay a small fee.
And if you are still not satisfied, come to Rutherglen where they really know about hospitality (blatant plug fully intended).
Cheers,
LL
And yes I agree, great hospitality in Rutherglen
Also great in the Hastings area
GRB wrote:Welcome cassy, jump on in the water is warm and there are not to many sharks
Um, "cassy", "Hastings area", Glen, I'll take back that cork-count prize if you can't do better than this.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
GRB wrote:RB,
You could but we drank it last weekend
Glen
Hope you enjoyed it. There seems to be a virus attacking red wine drinkers at present, I've got a sore throat and that "impending" lethargy feeling too. I had my flu shot Tuesday morning, but I don't think it's a reaction to that.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Red Bigot wrote:
Hope you enjoyed it. There seems to be a virus attacking red wine drinkers at present, I've got a sore throat and that "impending" lethargy feeling too. I had my flu shot Tuesday morning, but I don't think it's a reaction to that.
Dr Walsh recommends an extended treatment with Hunter Semillon. That will sharpen you up quick smart.
Gary W wrote:Red Bigot wrote:
Hope you enjoyed it. There seems to be a virus attacking red wine drinkers at present, I've got a sore throat and that "impending" lethargy feeling too. I had my flu shot Tuesday morning, but I don't think it's a reaction to that.
Dr Walsh recommends an extended treatment with Hunter Semillon. That will sharpen you up quick smart.
I hope you don't mind if I seek an alternate opinion on that one.
BTW, at my monthly tasting in March I correctly identified the 4 Hunter Semillons in the first flight - McWilliams Elizabeth 98 and Tyrrells Vat 1 98, Belford 99 and Stevens 2002.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Coonawarra wineries really annoy me when they dont have their better labels on tasting. Lets face it, very few people are "just passing by" and stop in for a quick, free drink. Its not exactly the most accessible place - roughly 5 hours drive from Adelaide or Melbourne. So the vast majority people who go to Coonawarra go because they are fair dinkum about wine. Its not a place for the end of year footy team crowd, unlike other regions.
Here endeth the dummy spit....
Here endeth the dummy spit....
Hmm
Cassy from Hastings.
Didn't work at Cassegrain per chance?
Anyway, bottom line is cellardoors have to be profitable, and a way of brand building. For a small operator they are essential, with probably 70% of our business going through cellardoor inn the last 12 months.
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
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Ratcatcher
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Hobart
smithy wrote:Anyway, bottom line is cellardoors have to be profitable, and a way of brand building. For a small operator they are essential, with probably 70% of our business going through cellardoor inn the last 12 months.
Do they have to be profitable?
Surely break even or a small loss on cellar door would be OK as long as you saw some future sales and positive word of mouth flowing on from it? Obviously if you are including mail order in the cellar door as well it needs to be profitable but just the tasting and on site sales would be worth operating even if at a small loss.
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pokolbinguy
- Posts: 165
- Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:37 pm
working in the industry, in cellar door sales, and also my father working in cellar door sales for 25 yrs, brother for 5 yrs and living on a vineyard all my life (family owned vineyard since 1980).... this is my take on the cellar door scenario.
Are they set up as marketing tools - just advertisments for thier products?
Cellar doors are great places to advertise your product, but you there is many differnt ways in which this can be done... e.g printed media etc. This is really not the aim but is still an integral reason for having a cellar door. Even more so on a smaller scale... say small family owned company producing 1000 cases etc
Are they set up as a profitable way to sell wine by avoiding the middle man?
it is hard to make profit in cellar door sales... especially in NSW where you are not allowed to charge for general tasting. This instantly can consume alot of capital. At work we can use anywhere from 12 to 60 bottles of wine a day, more with bus groups and special event weekends. These reasons are why cellar door prices are generally more expensive than the likes of Dan murpheys.... remember they buy at whole sale price and sell on a small profit margin... they also stock hundreds of wines, beers and spirits... most cellar doors are luck to have 20 products. Bottle shops, restaraunts are a very good way to get sales but the best money can be made in cellar door.
Are they set up to stimulate wine interest and appreciation?
This is what i really believe in .... i get great pleasure in taking my time to educate customers in wine, wine making, vineyard operations etc and showing them a range of products from the inexpensive to the premium to help them understand what wine is all about.
of course there is always the customer who is just there to do business and buy wine, which is good for us .... but makes the day boring. Taking time to converse with an interested customer is where the passion of the industry comes out. You will find that alot of cellar door staff are passionate about the products that they sell.... even more so in family owned and run businesses.
Remember if we in cellar door can make the customer enjoy their cellar door experience they are going to remember our name and purchase in the future even if they dont buy now. It is alot to do with putting a face and story to a wine instead of just a label. of course if the customer finds that they really dont like the styles of wine that we are selling we can then recommend other companies with a suitable product.... there is no point selling someone a rolls royce if they cant afford the insurance... if you catch my drift.
The wine industry has become faceless in the years gone by which is a real shame (e.g southcorp/fosters...*shudders*)... it is important that cellar doors go to the effort to show that there is still passion, vitality and love within the industry.
So in short... yes we are there to make money, and to avertise as well as educate people... it all comes down to the interest of each individual customer who enters the cellar door, some are they to drink for free, some to just buy and leave and some are there to really learn.
I hope that answers you question... feedback from others would be great aswell, especially if you think i have it all wrong... or right.
Cheers,
Woody
Are they set up as marketing tools - just advertisments for thier products?
Cellar doors are great places to advertise your product, but you there is many differnt ways in which this can be done... e.g printed media etc. This is really not the aim but is still an integral reason for having a cellar door. Even more so on a smaller scale... say small family owned company producing 1000 cases etc
Are they set up as a profitable way to sell wine by avoiding the middle man?
it is hard to make profit in cellar door sales... especially in NSW where you are not allowed to charge for general tasting. This instantly can consume alot of capital. At work we can use anywhere from 12 to 60 bottles of wine a day, more with bus groups and special event weekends. These reasons are why cellar door prices are generally more expensive than the likes of Dan murpheys.... remember they buy at whole sale price and sell on a small profit margin... they also stock hundreds of wines, beers and spirits... most cellar doors are luck to have 20 products. Bottle shops, restaraunts are a very good way to get sales but the best money can be made in cellar door.
Are they set up to stimulate wine interest and appreciation?
This is what i really believe in .... i get great pleasure in taking my time to educate customers in wine, wine making, vineyard operations etc and showing them a range of products from the inexpensive to the premium to help them understand what wine is all about.
of course there is always the customer who is just there to do business and buy wine, which is good for us .... but makes the day boring. Taking time to converse with an interested customer is where the passion of the industry comes out. You will find that alot of cellar door staff are passionate about the products that they sell.... even more so in family owned and run businesses.
Remember if we in cellar door can make the customer enjoy their cellar door experience they are going to remember our name and purchase in the future even if they dont buy now. It is alot to do with putting a face and story to a wine instead of just a label. of course if the customer finds that they really dont like the styles of wine that we are selling we can then recommend other companies with a suitable product.... there is no point selling someone a rolls royce if they cant afford the insurance... if you catch my drift.
The wine industry has become faceless in the years gone by which is a real shame (e.g southcorp/fosters...*shudders*)... it is important that cellar doors go to the effort to show that there is still passion, vitality and love within the industry.
So in short... yes we are there to make money, and to avertise as well as educate people... it all comes down to the interest of each individual customer who enters the cellar door, some are they to drink for free, some to just buy and leave and some are there to really learn.
I hope that answers you question... feedback from others would be great aswell, especially if you think i have it all wrong... or right.
Cheers,
Woody
smithy wrote:8) Hmm
Cassy from Hastings.
Didn't work at Cassegrain per chance?
Cheers
Smithy
Yes
I only moved here last year, and am enjoying working at Cassegrain, previously worked Vineyard supervisor at All Saints Estate for 4 years.
Cant say Im missing those cold winter mornings at Rutherglen....brrrrr
Totally agree with woody, and its great to here the passion in his words. It is cellar door staff like that, which make visiting cellar door an unique experience.
Cheers
woodwardbrett wrote:The wine industry has become faceless in the years gone by which is a real shame (e.g southcorp/fosters...*shudders*)... it is important that cellar doors go to the effort to show that there is still passion, vitality and love within the industry.
Agree with that but not the quoted bit. You get a bit of this. Not sure it is entirely fair. If you think that people like Arthur O'Connor (Seppelt), Peter Gago (Penfolds), Andrew Fleming (Coldstream), Nigel Dolan (Saltram), Stuart Pym (Devils Lair) are not passionate about wine and the industry then you are very mistaken. There are more than a few passionate and knowledgable brand managers..and the people who work at CD etc. Fosters Group make some of the best wines in this country ..and also some of the best value ones too. I would like to think there is a place for the corporates and artisan/boutique wineries.
GW
http://www.winorama.com.au
Last edited by Gary W on Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gary W wrote: If you don't think people like Arthur O'Connor (Seppelt), Peter Gago (Penfolds), Andrew Fleming (Coldstream), Nigel Dolan (Saltram), Stuart Pym (Devils Lair) are not passionate about wine and the industry then you are very mistaken.
Gary, I think there is an extra negative in there you may have inadvertently slipped in.
"It is very hard to make predictions, especially about the future." Samuel Goldwyn