Can anyone give info on independant trials that have concluded, or are currently in progress. The one thing we probably all agree on is that time (and fact!) will tell which is the better seal.
Ian
cork vs stelvin
ChrisH wrote:As a matter of relevance, the latest Moss Wood newsletter states they will be producing only 30% of their wine in future under cork because of consumer response to screwcap - and if you opt for the cork option you will not be able to go back and get a replacement for a TCA affected bottle because you gave up the chance to avoid it by not opting for the screwcap option.the fault of the screwcap if the seal is so good that it cannot escape !
Chris,
If you buy from the winery and are offered an option they are on solid ground, however if the wine was bought from a retailer who only had cork bottles on the shelf the MW would have to replace the TCA bottle.
Like Davo said, if there is a problem with the ROTE sealed bottles they will be in big trouble but its their risk.
No matter which way you look at it, its a crap shoot at the moment and both have risks. Thats not to say that ROTE will prove faultless with winemakers adjusting to the critical nature of getting the wine right in these bottles.
For all the positives of ROTE, we do know that it slows down ageing/development; even Steven Henschke said "significantly" but we have no idea how long. As I am over 50 and very unlikely to get to 80 that is a factor that I also have to consider.
For short term reds, not a problem but I would like to blind taste bottles of say (for example) 98 Balmoral and 01 Traditional at five, eight and 10 years of age under both ROTE and cork side by side. Then I would be making an informed decision based or real life experience rather than emotion.
-
PLCB
As with many debates, this one has had the misfortune of forcing people either into a "for" or "against" camp. People like Davo, Ric and myself <i>aren't</i> against stelvins !!!! Sheesh, it's like arguing with footie supporters - "our team is the best, and nothing you say can change our minds !" 
Murray
I'm not a fool, I know a trick question when I see one.
And I have reckon that whatever I say, there's a chance that you're going to reply saying you bought both and the one under screwcap was much better.
However, an honest answer for you. I suspect I would have bought the screwcap, because I trust T-corks even less than screwcaps. That decision of course will have been made assuming both still looked the same colour-wise etc.
If you were to ask me the same question about two bottles of 1977 Taylor's VP sealed under a standard cork, then I would have said I'd buy the one under cork, even with the lower ullage, because I wouldn't have confidence in the technology of 1979 not to have produced funny flavours in my port, and every 1977 Taylor's under cork I've ever had has been perfect.
Now, here is another point. Why haven't the great wines of Bordeaux or the ports of Portugal been bottled under stelvin ? Or have they been and I'm not abreast of recent changes ? But if not, and the evidence is so convincing, and there have been 30 years of trials, why hasn't everyone just moved to ROTE en masse ? Really, if stelvin technology was perfect, we shouldn't now be able to buy any wine under cork.
That is NOT to say that it won't one day BE perfect - but I believe we really need to understand more about how it affects the wine in the long term first. And btw, I think that wineries that say "we won't replace a faulty bottle if you buy cork instead of stelvin" can stick their wine up their arse. How dare they ? Unless they are selling their wine as a "second" with suitable discount, how can they maintain that they are selling a perfect first-grade product, and then refuse to honour the TPA if there is something wrong with the goods, ie. not fit for the purpose for which they were produced ? If they really do believe that stelvins are a better option, then they *should* just bottle all their wine under stelvin !!
Just my 2c.
Celia
Murray wrote:Dilemma time:
Your partner is turning 50 next year, your local liquor store has two bottles of 1954 Hardys Show Port, stored side by side since bottling. One is in screwcap with a level into the neck, the other is in a T-top cork with a level at high soulder.
Both have the same price.
Which do you buy for your partner as a pressie for their 50th?
Murray
I'm not a fool, I know a trick question when I see one.
And I have reckon that whatever I say, there's a chance that you're going to reply saying you bought both and the one under screwcap was much better.
However, an honest answer for you. I suspect I would have bought the screwcap, because I trust T-corks even less than screwcaps. That decision of course will have been made assuming both still looked the same colour-wise etc.
If you were to ask me the same question about two bottles of 1977 Taylor's VP sealed under a standard cork, then I would have said I'd buy the one under cork, even with the lower ullage, because I wouldn't have confidence in the technology of 1979 not to have produced funny flavours in my port, and every 1977 Taylor's under cork I've ever had has been perfect.
Now, here is another point. Why haven't the great wines of Bordeaux or the ports of Portugal been bottled under stelvin ? Or have they been and I'm not abreast of recent changes ? But if not, and the evidence is so convincing, and there have been 30 years of trials, why hasn't everyone just moved to ROTE en masse ? Really, if stelvin technology was perfect, we shouldn't now be able to buy any wine under cork.
That is NOT to say that it won't one day BE perfect - but I believe we really need to understand more about how it affects the wine in the long term first. And btw, I think that wineries that say "we won't replace a faulty bottle if you buy cork instead of stelvin" can stick their wine up their arse. How dare they ? Unless they are selling their wine as a "second" with suitable discount, how can they maintain that they are selling a perfect first-grade product, and then refuse to honour the TPA if there is something wrong with the goods, ie. not fit for the purpose for which they were produced ? If they really do believe that stelvins are a better option, then they *should* just bottle all their wine under stelvin !!
Just my 2c.
Celia
Murray wrote:
Piffle.
You haven't read what I've written.Davo wrote:You want a swap to ROTE closures at all costs.Murray wrote:I have never said that all wine under cork is faulty, although others have ascribed that quote to me.
And you're another.
Murray
Murray, I don't have the vaguest idea how you could interpret Davo's comments that way.
As Davo said, ease up, before this all turns to personal crap, be patient, time will tell all.
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
If it was all down to public perception stopping them, and the return rate on their wines was high, and expensive, under cork, I'm sure they would have bottled under ROTE and run a PR campaign. Advertising does work. Why, even McD can sell things loosely resembling hamburgers. Surely the multi-billion dollar wine industry can sell a screw cap over a piece of bark, if it wants to.
My question remains. If ROTE is as good as all its proponents say it is why is cork still being used, especially after over 30 years experience in the industry with ROTE?
Davo,
I'm glad the discussion has moved back to seals and wine and not about me.
To answer your question is that it's an implementation issue, not a technical issue. The are a whole stack of technically superior solutions that have not 'taken over' as expected; some exmpales, the Dvorak keyboard layout, Macintosh computer and the Beta videotape. All superior to their counterparts, but not accepted into the mainstream.
There have been a couple of studies published over the past couple of years looking at screwcap from an implementation approach.
The conclusion is that for a new innovation to become accepted by the mainstream is must first reach a critical mass of implementation. This is not a smooth line, in the language of the academic there is a 'chasm' between the early market and the mainstream market. In the 70's and 80's screwcap didn't breach that 'chasm'.
This latest implementation is different for a number of factors and, in my view, the 'chasm' has already been breached by virtue of the widespread acceptance of the seal by mainstream companies and niche players.
This does not mean that cork will stop being used to seal wine, I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future, but we are seeing a shift in seals for wine.
Murray Almond
Celia,
I don't see it that way either.
In fact no I haven't, remember I said it was a vintage 1954 for a 50th, and that's not until next year. I didn't by it, but a friend did, and hopefully they'll share it when celebrate their 50th. The bottle is T-Top was still on the shelf last time I looked.
see my response to Davo.
Actually Celia, if they declare up front that the botle may be subject to TCA taint by virtue of the corK, and the customer is given a choice between seals, then the TPA doesn't apply as far as I can tell. The customer has chosen the product if full knowledge that there may be a fault. However in practice I expect it'll be a hard one to prove, as Ric notes above.
They don't becuase some segments of the market are still demanding cork, and they still have to sell wine.
PLCB wrote: As with many debates, this one has had the misfortune of forcing people either into a "for" or "against" camp. People like Davo, Ric and myself <i>aren't</i> against stelvins !!!! Sheesh, it's like arguing with footie supporters - "our team is the best, and nothing you say can change our minds !"
I don't see it that way either.
PLCB wrote: And I have reckon that whatever I say, there's a chance that you're going to reply saying you bought both and the one under screwcap was much better.
In fact no I haven't, remember I said it was a vintage 1954 for a 50th, and that's not until next year. I didn't by it, but a friend did, and hopefully they'll share it when celebrate their 50th. The bottle is T-Top was still on the shelf last time I looked.
PLCB wrote: Now, here is another point. Why haven't the great wines of Bordeaux or the ports of Portugal been bottled under stelvin ? Or have they been and I'm not abreast of recent changes ? But if not, and the evidence is so convincing, and there have been 30 years of trials, why hasn't everyone just moved to ROTE en masse ? Really, if stelvin technology was perfect, we shouldn't now be able to buy any wine under cork.
see my response to Davo.
PLCB wrote: Unless they are selling their wine as a "second" with suitable discount, how can they maintain that they are selling a perfect first-grade product, and then refuse to honour the TPA if there is something wrong with the goods, ie. not fit for the purpose for which they were produced ?
Actually Celia, if they declare up front that the botle may be subject to TCA taint by virtue of the corK, and the customer is given a choice between seals, then the TPA doesn't apply as far as I can tell. The customer has chosen the product if full knowledge that there may be a fault. However in practice I expect it'll be a hard one to prove, as Ric notes above.
PLCB wrote: If they really do believe that stelvins are a better option, then they *should* just bottle all their wine under stelvin !!
They don't becuase some segments of the market are still demanding cork, and they still have to sell wine.
Murray Almond
It is interesting to note that Godden, et. al. (and his various publications on the AWRI trials) always makes the same statement in his conclusions, and I quote:
"No one closure tested in this study could be considered entirely suitable by all the criteria assessed, for the long term storage of wine, although many of them could be considered suitable for shorter-term storage."
Note: The trial tested 9 synthetic corks, 2 technical corks, 2 natural corks and 1 screw cap to seal a 1999 Semillon.
Obviously, there is insufficient evidence to make any long term claims for any closure - which is pretty bloody obvious as the trial is only 4 years old. Equally however, Godden at least states that there are several suitable closures for the short term storage of wine.
So even at the experimental end there is nothing cut and dried about the argument at all.
John
PS. I don't know of any scientifically controlled trial that has been going on for 30 years for any wine closure - lots of uncontrolled, personal opinion however which is unfortunately just that.
"No one closure tested in this study could be considered entirely suitable by all the criteria assessed, for the long term storage of wine, although many of them could be considered suitable for shorter-term storage."
Note: The trial tested 9 synthetic corks, 2 technical corks, 2 natural corks and 1 screw cap to seal a 1999 Semillon.
Obviously, there is insufficient evidence to make any long term claims for any closure - which is pretty bloody obvious as the trial is only 4 years old. Equally however, Godden at least states that there are several suitable closures for the short term storage of wine.
So even at the experimental end there is nothing cut and dried about the argument at all.
John
PS. I don't know of any scientifically controlled trial that has been going on for 30 years for any wine closure - lots of uncontrolled, personal opinion however which is unfortunately just that.
Barossa Shiraz