Interesting article in this months AGT WINE mag written by paul White and titled "Performing Seals".
Reports on rising evidence for reductive problems under screwcap at an incidence higher than TCA under cork.
An interesting read.
Cork v Screwcaps, again (or perhaps still)
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Guest
The whole reductive thing was dealt with in Tyson's book "Screwed for Good" (p 62-69).
It comes down to an issue of sulphide management.
The reductive characters in the AWRI samples were a direct result of inadequate sulphide stabilisation, these characters also showed up in samples bottled in cork too.
Murray
It comes down to an issue of sulphide management.
The reductive characters in the AWRI samples were a direct result of inadequate sulphide stabilisation, these characters also showed up in samples bottled in cork too.
Murray
Rob wrote:Gives me Cork anyday. I would rather risk iot with TCA then opening a bottle of fine red with a screw top. Just does not feel the same. Call me old fashioned....
So how is the horse drawn carriage coming along these days- handle the traffic and long distance travel OK.
michel
International Chambertin Day 16th May
You are old-fashioned! 
And probably less sensitive to tca than me or you would be more upset and in favour of ROTE seals.
I've been extracting corks for about 35 years and I can't wait to retire my collection of cork extractors. I shudder to think how much wine affected by tca and other cork-related problems has cost me before consumer protection laws and increased awareness helped me get replacements (often at some effort until recent years).
And probably less sensitive to tca than me or you would be more upset and in favour of ROTE seals.
I've been extracting corks for about 35 years and I can't wait to retire my collection of cork extractors. I shudder to think how much wine affected by tca and other cork-related problems has cost me before consumer protection laws and increased awareness helped me get replacements (often at some effort until recent years).
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Re: Cork v Screwcaps, again (or perhaps still)
Davo wrote:Interesting article in this months AGT WINE mag written by paul White and titled "Performing Seals".
Reports on rising evidence for reductive problems under screwcap at an incidence higher than TCA under cork.
An interesting read.
Davo,
I don't get AGT but wonder if it was the same or similar article he pubished locally. Was it an article of a bunch of Gewurztraminer wines?
If so, I have to wonder about the quality of the wine before it went in the bottle and agree that Tyson has dealt with this in his book.
Would be interested to know if he lists the wines that bring about his conclusions.
Regards,
Sue
Gives me Cork anyday. I would rather risk iot with TCA then opening a bottle of fine red with a screw top. Just does not feel the same. Call me old fashioned....
Personally I don't even trust these new-fangled glass bottles. I prefer to store all of wine in fired clay amphoras (with the occasional exotic drop stored in goat skin). I'd hate to see the day when I have to give up using my brass (don't trust that new-fangled iron) amphora hammer for brealing those seals.
Matthew
MatthewW wrote:Gives me Cork anyday. I would rather risk iot with TCA then opening a bottle of fine red with a screw top. Just does not feel the same. Call me old fashioned....
Personally I don't even trust these new-fangled glass bottles. I prefer to store all of wine in fired clay amphoras (with the occasional exotic drop stored in goat skin). I'd hate to see the day when I have to give up using my brass (don't trust that new-fangled iron) amphora hammer for brealing those seals.
Matthew
AS for the person who invented the wooden barrel to replace the amphoras - just what were they thinking?
Murray wrote:Sue;
Yes, the Gewurztraminers were mentioned; so I'd say it's the same article.
Interestingly, this article just came out when I was asked to help out with a 'Totally Screwed' tasting at First Glass on 9th July. Kingsley Wood, the store owner, read the article that appeared in a Wellington newspaper I believe and as I had Tyson's book in hand I was able to retaliate by quoting from the chapter you mention above.
Just because a wine is in screwcap, it doesn't mean it wasn't faulty to begin with. I don't think it is fair to blame screwcaps for the reductive/ sulphidic or whatever problems in these wines unless the same wine under cork and screwcap were tasted side by side to ensure the same fault didn't exist in the cork closed wine as well. Winemaking ability has to be questioned, after all gewurztraminer does not romp through with overly favourable results in wine competitions anyway and it doesn't (usually) have oak to hide behind. I was part of the judging of the gewurz class at the latest Liquorland Top 100 and some of the non-medal winners were downright awful.
Cheers,
Sue
I don't think it is fair to blame screwcaps for the reductive/ sulphidic or whatever problems in these wines unless the same wine under cork and screwcap were tasted side by side to ensure the same fault didn't exist in the cork closed wine as well.
Cheers,
Sue[/quote]
Sue
A similar article was published by the same author in the Wellington Dominion Post.
As to your quote above, one of the examples quoted is a comparison tasting (blind) of 2001 Jackson Estate Sav Blanc cork v ROTE.
Gewurtz is discussed later in the article as are comments from Bob Campbell.
Not all the wines had problems due to reduction/sulfurs. Some were oxidised.
I have no personal axe to grind, having wines under both closures in my possession. I can find no fault with healthy discussion and caution being displayed during the introduction of new technologies.
Cheers,
Sue[/quote]
Sue
A similar article was published by the same author in the Wellington Dominion Post.
As to your quote above, one of the examples quoted is a comparison tasting (blind) of 2001 Jackson Estate Sav Blanc cork v ROTE.
Gewurtz is discussed later in the article as are comments from Bob Campbell.
Not all the wines had problems due to reduction/sulfurs. Some were oxidised.
I have no personal axe to grind, having wines under both closures in my possession. I can find no fault with healthy discussion and caution being displayed during the introduction of new technologies.
Davo wrote:As to your quote above, one of the examples quoted is a comparison tasting (blind) of 2001 Jackson Estate Sav Blanc cork v ROTE.
Gewurtz is discussed later in the article as are comments from Bob Campbell.
Not all the wines had problems due to reduction/sulfurs. Some were oxidised.
I have no personal axe to grind, having wines under both closures in my possession. I can find no fault with healthy discussion and caution being displayed during the introduction of new technologies.
Davo,
I didn't see the whole article from the Wellington Dominion Post, I only heard what was read out to 70+ people and all that was mentioned was a tasting of gewurztraminers in screwcap and I thought that was all the article in the D.Post was about. There was no mention of comparative tasting. I haven't seen the AGT article either but from what you have said it sounds to me like it is a more complete look at what is happening.
My point is that screwcaps can't hide problems that are already there - which is basically what Tyson is saying in his book. Corks, on the other hand, could hide some problems by adding cork 'flavour' .
Heathy discussion is good but if both closures are on offer at the retail store for the same wine of the same vintage, I'll buy the one in screwcap, thanks.
Cheers,
Sue
Just to keep Dr Davo happy at the airport on the way to cold and damp Melbourne, I dug deep and paid my $7.95 and purchased a copy of AGT so I could read the article on “Screwcaps: Are we being screwed.†Now that I have read it I have a few comments to make.
Firstly the article is well written, unlike a number of some of magazines wine stories. It does present both sides of the picture and it does it reasonably fairly but I have a few concerns.
The biggest one is that whilst it based on the authors real life experience, that experience is not statistically valid. Nor are the examples quoted as they tell part of the story but not the complete one. Equally as important, which is presented in the article, is the fact that a lot of the problems found in Screwcaps are not in fact a fault of the seal used but occur as a result of the winemaking methods used to make the wine.
The H2S eductive problem in particular may have been masked in some bottles of wines sealed with corks but shows more readily in ROTE sealed bottles. ThatÂ’s not the fault of the ROTE, itÂ’s the winemaking method employed. Whilst this is mentioned in the article unless the reader knows a lot about wine, they could be forgiven for thinking it had something to do with the seal!
In reality, the jury is still out and its early days yet. We needs facts in this debate based on actual tests, not emotive clap trap and pseudo scientific voodoo or statically invalid gobbledygook.
Firstly the article is well written, unlike a number of some of magazines wine stories. It does present both sides of the picture and it does it reasonably fairly but I have a few concerns.
The biggest one is that whilst it based on the authors real life experience, that experience is not statistically valid. Nor are the examples quoted as they tell part of the story but not the complete one. Equally as important, which is presented in the article, is the fact that a lot of the problems found in Screwcaps are not in fact a fault of the seal used but occur as a result of the winemaking methods used to make the wine.
The H2S eductive problem in particular may have been masked in some bottles of wines sealed with corks but shows more readily in ROTE sealed bottles. ThatÂ’s not the fault of the ROTE, itÂ’s the winemaking method employed. Whilst this is mentioned in the article unless the reader knows a lot about wine, they could be forgiven for thinking it had something to do with the seal!
In reality, the jury is still out and its early days yet. We needs facts in this debate based on actual tests, not emotive clap trap and pseudo scientific voodoo or statically invalid gobbledygook.
Opened a bottle of 1973 Burgundy last week and the cork seal is as new as the day it got inserted. wine has barely creep up the cork by no more than a 1cm.
I am wondering maybe the cork used in Australia is not up to standard and I reckon the French know smoething about cork that we don't or simply don't care.
Why is the french is still using corks when the trend is pointing toward screw cap?
I am wondering maybe the cork used in Australia is not up to standard and I reckon the French know smoething about cork that we don't or simply don't care.
Why is the french is still using corks when the trend is pointing toward screw cap?
Rob,
The French have a couple of hundred years of winemaking tradition ahead of us and are even more attached to the tradition of cork than most. I don't know whether they get better cork than us, I suspect the difference is not that great from limited direct experience (mostly an occasional corked champagne) and reports I've seen on cork taint in French wines.
I'm pretty sure the lower level stuff they sell to British supermarkets won't be able to resist the move to ROTE, it's that or lose the sale, but I suspect it will be a while before the 1st Growths come out in Stelvin.
Any of the UK crew got any info on French/Italian wines in ROTE?
The French have a couple of hundred years of winemaking tradition ahead of us and are even more attached to the tradition of cork than most. I don't know whether they get better cork than us, I suspect the difference is not that great from limited direct experience (mostly an occasional corked champagne) and reports I've seen on cork taint in French wines.
I'm pretty sure the lower level stuff they sell to British supermarkets won't be able to resist the move to ROTE, it's that or lose the sale, but I suspect it will be a while before the 1st Growths come out in Stelvin.
Any of the UK crew got any info on French/Italian wines in ROTE?
Cheers
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
Brian
Life's too short to drink white wine and red wine is better for you too! :-)
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guest
I don't get it?
Are the Cap convention saying that the overly reductive characters in the capped wine don't mean anything, unless there is a cork control sample??? I thought they eschewed that same point when questions about aging under came up, as if comparative control samples didn't matter.
which is it, you can't have it both ways.
If, as it seems to me, suggestions are that winemaking should adjust to counteract the quirks of the cap, doesn't that mean the argument is over?
If a cap is not a neutral seal what is the point? You can't ask someone to make their wine in a different way, say less sulphur, and expect the big boys to play ball.
Are the Cap convention saying that the overly reductive characters in the capped wine don't mean anything, unless there is a cork control sample??? I thought they eschewed that same point when questions about aging under came up, as if comparative control samples didn't matter.
which is it, you can't have it both ways.
If, as it seems to me, suggestions are that winemaking should adjust to counteract the quirks of the cap, doesn't that mean the argument is over?
If a cap is not a neutral seal what is the point? You can't ask someone to make their wine in a different way, say less sulphur, and expect the big boys to play ball.
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Guest
guest wrote:I don't get it?
Are the Cap convention saying that the overly reductive characters in the capped wine don't mean anything, unless there is a cork control sample??? I thought they eschewed that same point when questions about aging under came up, as if comparative control samples didn't matter.
which is it, you can't have it both ways.
If, as it seems to me, suggestions are that winemaking should adjust to counteract the quirks of the cap, doesn't that mean the argument is over?
If a cap is not a neutral seal what is the point? You can't ask someone to make their wine in a different way, say less sulphur, and expect the big boys to play ball.
I don't get it.
If very small proportion of screw capped bottles exacerbate winemaking errors, should we instead embrace cork with its well documented destruction of a much higher proportion of wine with TCA and random oxidation?
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guest
I don't get it.
If very small proportion of screw capped bottles exacerbate winemaking errors, should we instead embrace cork with its well documented destruction of a much higher proportion of wine with TCA and random oxidation?
But is it your decision? you neglect the slow uptake in the premium sector.
consider who the decision makers will be.
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PaulSheldon
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From what I have read on the subject there are a number of premium wines, including Grange, being bottled under Stelvin, they are just not being released until the producers are sure of their ageing abilities. This may not happen for a number of years yet and you can't blame the wine makers or the enclosures for the caution being shown.
As for preferring cork because it helps to mask wine making faults, what else is it masking? That's a bit like saying lets forget High Definition, DVD and the like and go back to cheap VCRs and crappy old TV sets so we don't notice how bad the picture quality is. Or perhaps we should go back to 8 track tapes so sound engineers don't have to worry about recording quality? Sounds like a very backward argument to me.
As for preferring cork because it helps to mask wine making faults, what else is it masking? That's a bit like saying lets forget High Definition, DVD and the like and go back to cheap VCRs and crappy old TV sets so we don't notice how bad the picture quality is. Or perhaps we should go back to 8 track tapes so sound engineers don't have to worry about recording quality? Sounds like a very backward argument to me.
Paul
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PaulSheldon
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- Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:32 pm
- Location: Perth
Davo
On the quaffers I really don't know, but for their premiums they wouldn't want to be releasing heaps of them under screwcap only to find in 10 years or so they are all showing signs of premature ageing or some other problem. It would be a very expensive and embarassing recall. Better to keep the stuff under lock and key until they have convinced themselves there will be no problems. The problems with cork at least are currently quantifiable from a winery's point of view, a mob as big as Penfolds would have a pretty good idea I would think of how many corked returns they get each vintage. Screwcap is still an unknown quantity, particularly for wines that are regularly put down for ageing like Grange, 707 etc.
On the quaffers I really don't know, but for their premiums they wouldn't want to be releasing heaps of them under screwcap only to find in 10 years or so they are all showing signs of premature ageing or some other problem. It would be a very expensive and embarassing recall. Better to keep the stuff under lock and key until they have convinced themselves there will be no problems. The problems with cork at least are currently quantifiable from a winery's point of view, a mob as big as Penfolds would have a pretty good idea I would think of how many corked returns they get each vintage. Screwcap is still an unknown quantity, particularly for wines that are regularly put down for ageing like Grange, 707 etc.
Paul
Davo wrote:Paul,
Penfolds began trials of wines under screwcaps in the 70's. Hardys released wines under screwcap in the 70s.
Can someone explain why we don't have published results of these early trials? Most of the arguments are (sensibly) caveated with a view that when the evidence shows itself (either way) people will be convinced.
Also were these the same design of screwcap that are currently used or do new designs mean we have to start the experiments from scratch?
ta
Ian