Feeding Strawberries To Pigs ?

[Gianna..]

I've used this heading as I was not quite sure how to pose this question, but I trust that it gets a few eyebrows raised.

Quite often I have read the following opinion.

"Americans love that sweet, in your face, style of wine"

But us Aussies seem to "chuckle" at their so called lack of refinement in the red wine stakes.

But the French seem to "chuckle" at us when they describe the "fruit bombs" from Barossa et al. But we seem to take so much offence from those type of comments.

So my question is:

Is the Australian palate relative to the French, the equivalent of the American compared to the Australian"

Do we lack "wine refinement" without really knowing it?

[RogerPike]

Why this obsessive need for "cultural cringe".

Do you think that the Argentinians or the Austrians are asking themselves this question?

Roger

[MartinE]

I guess my first reaction is similar to Roger's...Who cares???

But to respond beyond that...Who says that the "Barossa fruit bombs" that the French (or more correctly the UK traditionalists) scoff at are made for the "Australian palate"? According to the latest GT Wine in 2005 we will drink 450m litres of wine locally and export 800m litres. As we are now the largest exporter to the UK and the US, perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we are making wine for those markets, not our own.

It's not us that lack wine refinement, Gianna...Our industry are simply responding to our commercial markets. I don't buy Yellowtail or Rosemount Diamond Label, do you?

M.

[RogerPike]

I have no doubt that some in our industry are now responding to the desires of overseas markets but "in the beginning" those overseas markets responded to what we were producing - good wine at a fair price at any level.

Let us not lose sight of how this all started and what we have achieved.

Roger

[Don Coyote]

Is the Australian palate relative to the French, the equivalent of the American compared to the Australian"

Heavens to Murgatroyd! We aught to hook you up in conversation with Serge. That would surely be some frumious jabberwookie!

[Serge Birbrair]

Is the Australian palate relative to the French, the equivalent of the American compared to the Australian"

Heavens to Murgatroyd! We aught to hook you up in conversation with Serge. That would surely be some frumious jabberwookie!

there is a good Russian expression:
"When dog has nothing better to do, dog licks it's balls"

Seems like Coyotes have the same habits...

[Serge Birbrair]

Do we lack "wine refinement" without really knowing it?

I wish I had your problems....Debt downgrade of General Motors and Ford to junk status affects me more than all "cultural refinements" of this and next worlds....

You are digging way to deep into yourself....when it happens to me, I use archeologist's brush instead of bulldozer..

[Muscat Mike]

there is a good Russian expression:
"When dog has nothing better to do, dog licks it's balls"

Seems like Coyotes have the same habits...[/quote]

Serge,
we have a saying:- "why does the dog lick its balls, because it can."
MM.

[Serge Birbrair]

there is a good Russian expression:
"When dog has nothing better to do, dog licks it's balls"

Seems like Coyotes have the same habits...

Serge,
we have a saying:- "why does the dog lick its balls, because it can."
MM.

are you sure it's your saying and not a line from Clinton's memoirs?

[KMP]

I've used this heading as I was not quite sure how to pose this question, but I trust that it gets a few eyebrows raised.

Quite often I have read the following opinion.

"Americans love that sweet, in your face, style of wine"

But us Aussies seem to "chuckle" at their so called lack of refinement in the red wine stakes.

But the French seem to "chuckle" at us when they describe the "fruit bombs" from Barossa et al. But we seem to take so much offence from those type of comments.

So my question is:

Is the Australian palate relative to the French, the equivalent of the American compared to the Australian"

Do we lack "wine refinement" without really knowing it?

Gianna

I'll face the firing squad and say that I think this is an interesting question. But I wouldn't use the word refinement to describe the difference between the Aussie and French palate (or New World versus Old World for that matter). As you have seen the suggestion of a lack of refinement does bring up the idea of cultural cringe that seems to haunt Australians; although as an Aussie who has traveled a fair bit I have never understood it. More to the point I'm not sure that Old World equates with refinement in wine. A longer history of wine making, longer lived wines, and in a small number of cases more expensive wines, signify Old World.

Let's be clear on something. Distinctive flavor profiles are not just characteristic of Old World and differences in flavor profiles don't signify refinement. To me refinement is a word used by wine critics to describe a wine in comparison to others. Its been defined as "refined; refinement In winetasting vernacular, a refined wine (or one of refinement) is one that's high in quality, as well as being in perfect CHARACTER and BALANCE for its origin and style." So a refined wine can be a fruit bomb. A fruit forward wine should not be considered as lacking in character (i.e. a distinctive, obvious feature, for example varietal character).

MartinE mentioned Rosemount Diamond Label. I think this is what we get over here as a black diamond label and the Shiraz sells for about $7USD. The interesting thing about this wine (and I've mentioned this several times on the forum now) is that tasted in blind tastings against other Aussie Shiraz and other shiraz/syrah this wine did very well in the mid-90s. I was extremely surprised by this. The wine never tasted the same back in Oz, it was a poor shadow of itself. In more recent times its quality seems to have fallen off, although for $7 it still represents good value compared to what else is available.

Is the Rosemount made especially for the US market? Maybe. Is my palate more Americanized after having lived here for over 20 years? Probably. But I think the question that needs to be answered, and is implied in your post, is what has generated the taste preferences of those who drink Old World and (falsely, IMHO) believe it defines them as having a refined palate?

Mike

[GrahamB]

MartinE mentioned Rosemount Diamond Label. I think this is what we get over here as a black diamond label and the Shiraz sells for about $7USD. The interesting thing about this wine (and I've mentioned this several times on the forum now) is that tasted in blind tastings against other Aussie Shiraz and other shiraz/syrah this wine did very well in the mid-90s. I was extremely surprised by this. The wine never tasted the same back in Oz, it was a poor shadow of itself. In more recent times its quality seems to have fallen off, although for $7 it still represents good value compared to what else is available.

Is the Rosemount made especially for the US market? Maybe. Is my palate more Americanized after having lived here for over 20 years? Probably. But I think the question that needs to be answered, and is implied in your post, is what has generated the taste preferences of those who drink Old World and (falsely, IMHO) believe it defines them as having a refined palate?

Mike

Mike

The Rosemount Black Diamond Shiraz is selling in Australia. I have been selling this wine for the last month for AUS$10. Not a wine I would buy to drink for myself but at this price is consumed by a large portion of australian red wine drinkers. Forum members who search for and pay more dollars for better wine are a very small part of the wine consumers in Australia. On an evening shift for me, if I can sell three good quality/VFM wines in a night (something over $20) I think I have done well as the store I am in is very much a beer and $10 wine area. I am however now seeing return customers asking for the better wines.

As for the 03 Rosemount BD Shiraz, I had it recently at an in-store tasting we did. It showed up very well. After 24 hours I poured a taste from the same bottle for a customer. Came up quite well and I would suspect was as good as some $20 wines I sell.

Sometimes I wonder when this happens if someone bottled the wrong wine. On occasions, they get it right for the "joe blow" consumer.

Graham

[MartinE]

MartinE mentioned Rosemount Diamond Label. I think this is what we get over here as a black diamond label and the Shiraz sells for about $7USD. The interesting thing about this wine (and I've mentioned this several times on the forum now) is that tasted in blind tastings against other Aussie Shiraz and other shiraz/syrah this wine did very well in the mid-90s. I was extremely surprised by this. The wine never tasted the same back in Oz, it was a poor shadow of itself. In more recent times its quality seems to have fallen off, although for $7 it still represents good value compared to what else is available.

Is the Rosemount made especially for the US market? Maybe. Is my palate more Americanized after having lived here for over 20 years? Probably. But I think the question that needs to be answered, and is implied in your post, is what has generated the taste preferences of those who drink Old World and (falsely, IMHO) believe it defines them as having a refined palate?

Mike

Mike,

Generally I agree with your comments but just to put my views into perspective:

1. I think there are a lot of traditionalist consumers, particularly in the UK and on the RJP board , who consider themselves to have "refined palates" which should not be sullied with the bigger New World styles...Personally I ignore them as narrow-minded.
In France, I have rarely come across people ITB who have the same prejudices but rather have experienced a large degree of admiration for the consistency and quality achieved by the Oz "sunshine in a bottle" styles.

2. I may have been unfair on Rosemount but your comments I think are accurate in that the quality has decreased over the past 5 years and I would be surprised if it is the same wine we see here.

3. There is no doubt in my mind that quite a few wines exported from Oz to the US, if not purely export wines and specifically designed for the US sweeter palate, are varied to achieve the same result.
You would know far better than I but my limited in US experience leaves me with the distinct impression that US food, beverages and wines are universally sweeter, more up-font and "bigger than Texas" compared to virtually anywhere else in the world.

Let's face it, Mike...Any country that finds baseball fascinating is not on the same page as us !!

Cheers,

MartinE

[Guest]

I am a pig, and I like strawberries. I also like cherries, raspberries, blackberries, blueberries, currants, figs, oranges, lemons, limes, and other flavors other than fruit.

I participate on the RJP board, but would never consider myself to have a refined palate.

I never really liked wine until I drank a Rosemount Diamond Label Shiraz, circa early nineties. It was my "gateway drug."

I find baseball utterly boring.

So, what does all this have to do with anything? It doesn't. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

[jayhawker]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. I often forget to log in before I post. I am the aforementioned pig.

[MartinE]

I am a pig, and I like strawberries. I also like cherries, raspberries, blackberries, blueberries, currants, figs, oranges, lemons, limes, and other flavors other than fruit.

Thanks for sharing that !

I participate on the RJP board, but would never consider myself to have a refined palate.

So do I and neither do I...The comment was "a lot" not "all".

I never really liked wine until I drank a Rosemount Diamond Label Shiraz, circa early nineties. It was my "gateway drug."

Again...The comments were in relation to more recent releases.

I find baseball utterly boring.

Clearly a person of taste

So, what does all this have to do with anything? It doesn't. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Feel better now ?

Cheers,
M.

[Adair]

Some gross generalisations that convey my brief thoughts on the topic:

The majority of Americans love wines that I consider are either oak or cloying fruit imbalanced or both. (I have only found US Cabernet to be marvellous wines, but admit that I have only had a handful of Zin and Pinot Noir)

The majority of Australians love wines that have ample amounts of fruit, in fact these wine have enough fruit to be great wines, but tend to lack the complexity or sensational structures to be great.

The French value structure and complexity greater than Australians, similar to how Australians value fruit power and depth. Many wines that French believe to be good, Australians find are simply lacking fruit and consider them not good wines... and I usually more often than not agree, although I think I am a little more on the French side than the average Australian wine lover, but no where near the average French drinker.

However, the Ultimate wines need marvellous fruit and marvellous structure. Australian wines can and do achieve this, but French wines do this more often than Australian wines. Unfortunately, the French wines that do this are, 95% of the time, over $120, although many over $120 French wines are not of this quality and should not have such price-tags.

Maybe in 20-100 more years, Australia will be able to make these such wines much more consistently and still as relatively cheaply to the French... when we get a better understanding of our land and vines.

However, I suggest that Australia is able to make wines of marvellously fruited and adequately structured much, much more consistently and cheaply than French can make adequately fruited and marvellously complex and structured wines.

Maybe I am displaying a little cultural cringe, or maybe I am displaying the fact that my palate has experienced vastly more Australian wines than French. Either way, if money were no object, at the moment, I would be drinking much more French than Australian wines... although when I felt like a Barossa Shiraz, I would buy a Barossa Shiraz!!!

Just my quick ramblings,
Adair

[Serge Birbrair]

..and what I don't understand at all, is why one's personal preferences are the subjects of debate? Are those who preffer blonds more cultural than those who preffer red heads? I find good side of 'em all..


The whole question ain't worth the electrons involved in transmission.

Gimme the right food and I'll find the right wine. Since the day one local wine was designed to complement local food. Those who been to France, know for a fact, GOOD beef one can find in Australia and USA just isn't there in France, thus no need for big wines which go with BIG food. Therefore, to assume one's palate is less refined than the other just because one eats food different from other locale is just prepastrous.

With this said, I now go to bed to dream about barnyard smell and taste of Chateau Gruaud Larose, 1996,
Oaky smell of Epoch II, 1997 DryCreek,
and overpowering fruit of Fox Creek Short Row Shiraz,
while meaningless discussion is going on.

Nite-nite...

[MartinE]

..and what I don't understand at all, is why one's personal preferences are the subjects of debate? Are those who preffer blonds more cultural than those who preffer red heads? I find good side of 'em all..


The whole question ain't worth the electrons involved in transmission.

Gimme the right food and I'll find the right wine. Since the day one local wine was designed to complement local food. Those who been to France, know for a fact, GOOD beef one can find in Australia and USA just isn't there in France, thus no need for big wines which go with BIG food. Therefore, to assume one's palate is less refined than the other just because one eats food different from other locale is just prepastrous.

With this said, I now go to bed to dream about barnyard smell and taste of Chateau Gruaud Larose, 1996,
Oaky smell of Epoch II, 1997 DryCreek,
and overpowering fruit of Fox Creek Short Row Shiraz,
while meaningless discussion is going on.

Nite-nite...

....speaking of meaningless

[KMP]

Just add a couple of things here. An argument can probably be made that palate refinement can be reflected in the diversity of quality wines experienced. This would mean that Broadbent, Parker, Robinson, Tanzer, etc, etc have refined palates. I donÂ’t think there is any argument there, but they sure do argue among themselves about what is quality.

For myself I try to drink the best wines I can afford, but a wine has to be very special for me to spend more than $50 a bottle. So most of the truly expensive wines I have drunk have been at tastings or through friends; very little has been aged Old World. That being said the most memorable red IÂ’ve had was a Bordeaux second growth, the dry white was a Tasmanian chardonnay, the sweet white has been German and the fortified has clearly been Aussie muscat. My tastes may be constrained in part by economics and in part by access, but I wonder how many wine drinkers have unlimited finances and access to wines that are simply difficult to acquire at any time let alone with decades of cellar age.

Adair is correct that European wines are some of the best in the world, but the best are almost always very expensive. Even those wines in comparative tastings have been bested by New World wines and so the situation is not all or none. Age worthiness is probably the biggest advantage of the Old World and that is an indicator of quality. But there is a sea of European wine that is pretty poor quality. I keep trying to find Bordeaux and Burgundy wines around $20-30USD that suit my taste but I have very little success. This is frustrating particularly with Bordeaux because I much prefer Cabernet (see post below) to any other variety and the California Cabs that I have liked in the past are now either too expensive or have fallen in quality.

Mike

[KMP]

As for the Rosemount, I went back to my old stored tasting notes and found what is probably my first blind tasting of RosemountÂ’s Shiraz. It was March 26, 1994. In the tasting I rated the wines as follows (prices are in US$)

1990 PenfoldÂ’s 707 Cab Sauv ($29.99)
1988 PenfoldÂ’s Grange ($84.99)
1992 Rosemount Shiraz ($6.49)
1990 LindemanÂ’s Cab/Merlot ($7.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s Bin 128 ($9.99)
1990 Koala Ridge Cab sauv ($6.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s Bin 389 ($12.99)
1986 LindemanÂ’s Shiraz/Cab ($17.99)

The guy running the tasting rated them as follows
1988 PenfoldÂ’s Grange ($84.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s Bin 128 ($9.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s 707 Cab Sauv ($29.99)
1992 Rosemount Shiraz ($6.49)
1990 Koala Ridge Cab sauv ($6.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s Bin 389 ($12.99)
1986 LindemanÂ’s Shiraz/Cab ($17.99)
1990 LindemanÂ’s Cab/Merlot ($7.99)

The group rated them (based on points for first, second and third place selections) as follows
1988 PenfoldÂ’s Grange ($84.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s 707 Cab Sauv ($29.99)
1986 LindemanÂ’s Shiraz/Cab ($17.99)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s Bin 128 ($9.99)
1990 Koala Ridge Cab sauv ($6.99)
1992 Rosemount Shiraz ($6.49)
1990 PenfoldÂ’s Bin 389 ($12.99)
1990 LindemanÂ’s Cab/Merlot ($7.99)

The tasting results for me were surprising for two reasons. First, I rated the Rosemount third which I was almost certainly embarrassed about. I think this was around the time that the Wine Spectator had given it a good score (maybe 90+) but I was not at all convinced. This tasting changed my opinion. Second I scored a long time favorite wine, Bin 389, into second last place. This was another wake up call, and even though I continued to buy the odd bottle of 389, I was no longer such a big fan of the “poor mans Grange”. The only thing that did not surprise me is my preference for Bin 707 over Grange. I’ve done this almost every time I’ve tasted both wines under blinded conditions. I’m just not a big fan of young Grange while I love the smell of a good young Cab.

Note that the guy running the tasting (wine shop owner and wine judge) has the Bin 128 in second and the Rosemount in 4th. HeÂ’s a big fan of Grange and also thinks 128 is underrated (or at least he did back then).

The group has the Rosemount in 6th which might not seem that impressive but this is based on points scored for the first, second and third place only. I donÂ’t have the complete breakdown of that aspect of the tasting but to come in 6th it had to have received votes for first, second or third from some members of the group. And it did beat out the 1990 Bin 389.

Last point. Notice the price of the Rosemount $6.49. In 10 years it has increased in price 50 cents. Actually thatÂ’s not completely true I believe itÂ’s been as high as $12-13USD but sanity has prevailed. Its good value at $7USD, but at $12USD itÂ’s got to compete with much better wines.

Mike

[Serge Birbrair]

I keep trying to find Bordeaux and Burgundy wines around $20-30USD that suit my taste but I have very little success. This is frustrating particularly with Bordeaux because I much prefer Cabernet (see post below) to any other variety and the California Cabs that I have liked in the past are now either too expensive or have fallen in quality.

Mike

don't...when you find what you like, and I can give you a few names in under $50 range, this will change your life and drain your wallet. Why take chances...???

[Don Coyote]

The whole question ain't worth the electrons involved in transmission.

while meaningless discussion is going on.

This is laughy daffy coming from you. Gordzukes it IS you!