terroir...shmorour...the EUREKA moment.

[Serge Birbrair]

One of our favorite hang outs in New York City is Museum of Natural History,
and newly opened (in September) the Rocks and mineral Department.
http://nocomments.com/1/NYC05/

Susanne, who is Minor in Geology,
noticed how many exhibits came from France, but...it wasn't Eureka moment yet.

In Paris, we went to the local supermarket and bought a few bottles of mineral water, which was...VERY minerally, one can taste it's richness, it was like a lite beer....but it wasn't still a "Eureka moment" yet.

Than we started tasting wines...wines which evolved with ever sip...and it became VERY clear...
The REASON why the French wines are so evolving is:
terroir, not the climate, not the rains, not the barrels, but the SOIL itself!
RICH with minerals which find it's way into the grape, and when oxydized, produce all those flavors nobody else can produce or duplicate.
What an EYE opener that moment was...

One just can't duplicate the mother Earth and it's content,
just can't.......while the rest IS duplicatable.

French ARE blessed.

[Gary W]

What a complete load of twaddle. So if you put shit on the soil do the grapes taste like shit?

GW

[Serge Birbrair]

What a complete load of twaddle. So if you put shit on the soil do the grapes taste like shit?

GW

au contre, mon ami....shit is a fertilizer, it decomposes and turns into other substances.

To prove this yourself once and for all,
fill your car with gas, and get the hell out of the city! Visit few farmers and ask them what happens with shit in the soil,
come back and post your findings, city dweller



do you have anymore wise cracks? I am an insomniac and have all nite...

[Gary W]

No. You have got me. I am now totally conviced. So convinced that I am going to Latour to get an exact chemical and mineral composition of the soil and by replicating this exact mineral content within 7 years I will have my own first growth in my backyard. This is because it is all to do with the soil and its mineral content - nothing to do with such trifles as climate, weather, aspect, rootstock, soil type (i.e. heavy clays, gravel), altitude and of course wine making technique - yeasts, temperature and duration of fermentation, use of oak, oxidative or reductive handling techniques etc etc.

Read this if you want to understand a bit better - pretty fair summation http://www.wineanorak.com/terroir.htm

GW

[TORB]

RICH with minerals which find it's way into the grape, and when oxydized, produce all those flavors nobody else can produce or duplicate.
What an EYE opener that moment was...

Interesting, normally to me, when a wine is oxidised, its undrinkable.

[Wizz]

In Paris, we went to the local supermarket and bought a few bottles of mineral water, which was...VERY minerally, one can taste it's richness, it was like a lite beer....but it wasn't still a "Eureka moment" yet.

Yes, fine so far. But from here on I have a lot of questions.

Than we started tasting wines...wines which evolved with ever sip...and it became VERY clear...
The REASON why the French wines are so evolving is:
terroir, not the climate, not the rains, not the barrels, but the SOIL itself!
RICH with minerals which find it's way into the grape, and when oxydized, produce all those flavors nobody else can produce or duplicate.
What an EYE opener that moment was...

One just can't duplicate the mother Earth and it's content,
just can't.......while the rest IS duplicatable.

French ARE blessed.

Why did it become VERY clear? You drink some very minerally mineral water and suddenly the secret of all French wine is revealed? Can you show me the relationship here? Is there some magic secret mineral that stops at the borders of France?

Should I expect to go and eat a particularly juicy blackberry or plum from the Barossa Valley and imediately conclude I understand why all the wines there taste like they do?

One just can't duplicate the mother Earth and it's content,
just can't.......while the rest IS duplicatable.

So what was the duplicatable bit? Drinking mineral water?

These are all romantic ideas for sure. But I'm not always quick on the uptake, so if you can help me move beyond whimsical notions and into some logic, I'd appreciate the guidance,

[Serge Birbrair]

RICH with minerals which find it's way into the grape, and when oxydized, produce all those flavors nobody else can produce or duplicate.
What an EYE opener that moment was...

Interesting, normally to me, when a wine is oxidised, its undrinkable.

TORB,
wine is always oxydised....it's DEGREE of oxydation is what counts


If you drink wine in outer space thru the straw,
it will never breath and will be the same with no oxygen present.
(you might have another problem of keeping it warm enough to drink in
-273C surrounding,
but this is another story.

[Serge Birbrair]

Wizz,
I'll do my best.

The minerals don't stop on the French border,
they just change the composition and mix.

Example-
South Africa is not the only place on Earth where the diamonds, gold, uranium, molibden, etc are mined,
but...
it's a unique place mother nature created. You can find diamonds in Yakutsk, Siberia, but the gold is in Magadan, 2500 km east...

I dare to say the mix in Bordeaux ( and we only tried Bordeaux, so I can't say about other regions, I don't know,) has some uniqueness in the soil which acounts why so many wines we tested evolve the way they evolve when wine gets in contact with oxygen.

[TORB]

Serge,

According to page 507 of the Oxford Companion to Wine, it sates "Wines spoiled by oxidation are said to be oxidised. (Their bolding, not mine.)

As to the rest of the logic you used, the Oxford, on page 506 says, "oxidation, wine fault resulting from excessive exposure to OXYGEN (as apposed to AERATION which is deliberate, controlled exposure to oxygen.)

But what would the Oxford Companion to wine know? obviously you know better.

[Serge Birbrair]

Should I expect to go and eat a particularly juicy blackberry or plum from the Barossa Valley and imediately conclude I understand why all the wines there taste like they do?

I am not an advocate of "imediate conclusions", but....
let's both analyze the variables and constants.

1) grapes is constant. You can take the grape from Barossa valey and grow it in other places.

2) climate is duplicatable in enclosed environment, so climate is constant

3) oak is constant, lots of winemakers use the same oak barrels

4) what is not constant is soil, underground water supply,
this is next to impossible to duplicate

what am I missing in this logic?

[Serge Birbrair]

Serge,

According to page 507 of the Oxford Companion to Wine, it sates "Wines spoiled by oxidation are said to be oxidised. (Their bolding, not mine.)

As to the rest of the logic you used, the Oxford, on page 506 says, "oxidation, wine fault resulting from excessive exposure to OXYGEN (as apposed to AERATION which is deliberate, controlled exposure to oxygen.)

But what would the Oxford Companion to wine know? obviously you know better.

TORB,
between us boys, did YOU think I meant AERATION or oxydation? English is not my native language....and if you rather discuss vocabulary skills instead of implied substance,
I suggest we continue in Russian and I PROMISE to be gentle with you

[Serge Birbrair]

No. You have got me. I am now totally conviced. So convinced that I am going to Latour to get an exact chemical and mineral composition of the soil and by replicating this exact mineral content within 7 years I will have my own first growth in my backyard. This is because it is all to do with the soil and its mineral content - nothing to do with such trifles as climate, weather, aspect, rootstock, soil type (i.e. heavy clays, gravel), altitude and of course wine making technique - yeasts, temperature and duration of fermentation, use of oak, oxidative or reductive handling techniques etc etc.

all of those CAN be duplicated in the controlled environment like greenhouse, except...soil.
(see my post above)

Read this if you want to understand a bit better - pretty fair summation http://www.wineanorak.com/terroir.htm

GW

read, read, read....
reading has a small problem vs analysing:
one has to beleive in what one reads and have no problems substituting one's own opinion with other people opinions.
If Bush analysed the Iraqi WMD capabilities instead of READING CIA report-
we wouldn't have the Iraq war, wouldn't we?

[Guest]

all of those CAN be duplicated in the controlled environment like greenhouse, except...soil.
(see my post above)

Why not get a few buckets of soil from a famous vineyard and put them in your greenhouse? Go on...you can do it. Make us some DRC...1990 will do. You can make a fortune.

[Serge Birbrair]

all of those CAN be duplicated in the controlled environment like greenhouse, except...soil.
(see my post above)

Why not get a few buckets of soil from a famous vineyard and put them in your greenhouse? Go on...you can do it. Make us some DRC...1990 will do. You can make a fortune.

few buckets won't do....but if you can duplicate a few acres with exact composition and bring the undeground "plumming" with exact water content-
you've got it made. If you can make an engineeringly sound proposal-
I'll finance it


The soil at famous vineyards are mostly POOR,
so the roots have to travel far and go deep. I say 500 meters by 500 meters by 20 meters plot would do

Between us boys, how you gonna haul 5,000,000 cubic meters?

[Mark G]

Serge

I have a masters with honors in geology if that helps you at all, but to be honest you've jumped out of the plane without a parachute on this one. The implication that the mineral content of the soil controls the quality of any single wine is purely idealistic and simplistic. You really must read more about wine and also taste more wine from around the world - your current knowledge is a bit thin to try and assert such "theories".

I admire your enthuesiasm but that doesn't earn you an MW or the ability to inform the vinuous world about the "intensity" of french minerals - you really are throwing yourself into the fire here. I won't go through the reams of data that Gary W alluded to, but please do read more about the topic before you jump in.

Keep on tasting and enjoying and we'll keep on reading your posts.

Cheers

Mark G

[Guest]

I dare to say the mix in Bordeaux ( and we only tried Bordeaux, so I can't say about other regions, I don't know,) has some uniqueness in the soil which acounts why so many wines we tested evolve the way they evolve when wine gets in contact with oxygen.

Which part of bordeaux? The gravel in Graves? The clay in St Emillion. Do they all taste the same? What do they taste like with 100% new oak.
http://www.medoc-wines.com/rubriques-eng/sols.htm

[Serge Birbrair]

Serge

I have a masters with honors in geology if that helps you at all, but to be honest you've jumped out of the plane without a parachute on this one. The implication that the mineral content of the soil controls the quality of any single wine is purely idealistic and simplistic. You really must read more about wine and also taste more wine from around the world - your current knowledge is a bit thin to try and assert such "theories".

I admire your enthuesiasm but that doesn't earn you an MW or the ability to inform the vinuous world about the "intensity" of french minerals - you really are throwing yourself into the fire here. I won't go through the reams of data that Gary W alluded to, but please do read more about the topic before you jump in.

Keep on tasting and enjoying and we'll keep on reading your posts.

Cheers

Mark G

Mark,
if you had the degree in agriculture in addition to the geology degree,
I'd in real trouble with my logic.

You made a statement:The implication that the mineral content of the soil controls the quality of any single wine is purely idealistic and simplistic.

care to post the link to the SCIENTIFIC STUDIES of the subject so I could read it and the truism
"you are what you eat" doesn't apply to plants?

[Serge Birbrair]

I dare to say the mix in Bordeaux ( and we only tried Bordeaux, so I can't say about other regions, I don't know,) has some uniqueness in the soil which acounts why so many wines we tested evolve the way they evolve when wine gets in contact with oxygen.

Which part of bordeaux? The gravel in Graves? The clay in St Emillion. Do they all taste the same? What do they taste like with 100% new oak.
http://www.medoc-wines.com/rubriques-eng/sols.htm

you just proved my point, for me.

I tried several St Emillions and found no magic...Margaux with it's gravel soil is another story...and so was St Julien.

I'll be writing TN's all month long on what we tried:
http://www.nocomments.com/1/Paris05/index4.html
http://www.nocomments.com/1/Paris05/index5.html
http://nocomments.com/1/NYC05/index2.html

some Bordeaux has it, some don't...
(Chateau Lafite 2002 DOESN'T HAVE IT)

[Guest]

I tried several St Emillions and found no magic...Margaux with it's gravel soil is another story...and so was St Julien.

Not to mention the fact that St Emillon is merlot dominant and the others are cabernet dominant. You are nuts.

[TORB]

Serge,

Whilst I can appreciate the fact that English is not your native language when you post a post like the one at the top of this thread which is, shall we say, made claims which are both specific and controversial, you have to expect some flak and come back.

Whilst you may think you have reached certain conclusions based on your own experience and reasoning, there are others who would and do totally disagree with your findings. When that happens, rather than getting emotional, most people on this forum try to put their case forward with logic.

The more categorically the statement and evocative the post, the more heated is going to draw.

In a post to Wizz you said "Example-
South Africa is not the only place on Earth where the diamonds, gold, uranium, molibden, etc are mined, …”

It may interest you to know, that in Australia we mine diamonds gold and uranium. I have also done some research on “molibden” which I presume you mean is “molybdenum.” According to the source http://www.answers.com/topic/molybdenum “It is widely but sparingly distributed throughout the world; it is found in the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, Chile, Russia, and China.” notice, no mention of South Africa.

In another post, where you ask "what am I missing in this logic" you also state the following:

“1) grapes is constant. You can take the grape from Barossa valey and grow it in other places.”

Yes, you can take root stock from the Barossa and grow them in the Yarra Valley, or even in Coonawarra, but that doesn't mean that the resulting grapes are going to toast remotely similar.

“2) climate is duplicatable in enclosed environment, so climate is constant”

To some extent, the macro climate may be duplicated, it would be virtually impossible to duplicate a microclimate. That is why, five rows of vines in a vineyard may be totally different to the grapes that come off the vines that are the surrounding them.

3) oak is constant, lots of winemakers use the same oak barrels

Even barrels from the same Coopers from the same forests can be different. Not every oak tree is the same. Even minor differences in barrels, can and does produced minor differences in the finished wine.

4) what is not constant is soil, underground water supply, this is next to impossible to duplicate

No argument with that, but it's also just as next to impossible to duplicate the microclimate and all the other factor is the Gary mentioned.

“ read, read, read....
reading has a small problem vs analysing:
one has to beleive in what one reads and have no problems substituting one's own opinion with other people opinions.
If Bush analysed the Iraqi WMD capabilities instead of READING CIA report-
we wouldn't have the Iraq war, wouldn't we?”

In a statement, in a funny way, I believe you are guilty of doing exactly what you are accusing Bush and doing. You have analysed a situation and come up with a conclusion based on a part of the picture without considering all the evidence.

[Serge Birbrair]

I tried several St Emillions and found no magic...Margaux with it's gravel soil is another story...and so was St Julien.

Not to mention the fact that St Emillon is merlot dominant and the others are cabernet dominant. You are nuts.

some Pomerols "got it" and YES, I AM NUT...if I wasn't,
would I be arguing wine at 4 am?

[Guest]

and you are experienced enough to pick the difference in a wine (say Pomerol) between one that has been picked late and green harvested to concentrate the fruit and then put in 100% new oak and still conclusively put the difference down to soil and not viticulture and winemaking technicque. You will look back at thses statements and laugh in a couple of years. Trust me.

[Serge Birbrair]

TORB,
I have no problems with either controversy or taking flak,
this si how I learn,
and people who agree on everything are redundunt....and I ALWAYS learn more from my opponents than from people who agree with me



I am a bit emotional on the issue....don't forget, I've had my FIRST wine orgasm in France.
Remember back in a day when you had your first? Hard to supress the emotions

[Serge Birbrair]

and you are experienced enough to pick the difference in a wine (say Pomerol) between one that has been picked late and green harvested to concentrate the fruit and then put in 100% new oak and still conclusively put the difference down to soil and not viticulture and winemaking technicque. You will look back at thses statements and laugh in a couple of years. Trust me.

me? expereinced? VERY far from it! what I have working for me is a vigor of the "fresh eye" to notice things some stopped analysing many moons and bottles ago.


Laugh? Most of the times when I re-read my old wine statements - I CRY instead of laughing, but....like in wine,
being "young" is a part of the development, the phase one can't avoid.

and in conclusion:
I'd rather laugh, cry and LEARN than stay on sidelines and remain ignorant.
"Learning is a process" and I don't mind breaking a few eggs in the search of "perfect omlet"

[TORB]

me? expereinced? VERY far from it! what I have working for me is a vigor of the "fresh eye" to notice things some stopped analysing many moons and bottles ago.

Serge,

As someone has already mentioned, your enthusiasm is to be lauded but it also needs to be tempered with little reality.

One thing you may have failed to notice on this forum is that the majority of posters are extremely enthusiastic about wine. I would doubt there would be too many people here that could be accused of having "stopped analysing many moons and bottles ago."

Also, if you are as genuinely keen to learn as you say you are, when someone like Mark says he has a university degree, and not just a common or garden one, but a masters with honours in a subject that forms one of the underlying key stones in the debate, suggesting that he prove his point is .... .... well not to put this politely, is stupid and rude.

In that position, he has the runs on the board and it's up to you, assuming you are seriously interested in learning, and not just blowing your own trumpet, to prove that he is wrong. Just because you may think he is does not make it so.

Whilst the emotion of a foggy wine orgasm maybe earth shattering and wonderful, when you post a huge claim, no matter what the reason behind it, the facts need to be there to back it up or you will quickly lose credibility.

Where are all here to learn about wine, that's why we post.

[mphatic]

Serge,

It may interest you to know, that in Australia we mine diamonds gold and uranium. I have also done some research on “molibden” which I presume you mean is “molybdenum.” According to the source http://www.answers.com/topic/molybdenum “It is widely but sparingly distributed throughout the world; it is found in the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, Chile, Russia, and China.” notice, no mention of South Africa.

This is correct

Even barrels from the same Coopers from the same forests can be different. Not every oak tree is the same. Even minor differences in barrels, can and does produced minor differences in the finished wine.

and lets not forget about the degree of toast

4) what is not constant is soil, underground water supply, this is next to impossible to duplicate

No argument with that, but it's also just as next to impossible to duplicate the microclimate and all the other factor is the Gary mentioned.

Actually, gut feeling tells me that reproducing the soil and water supply should be EASIER than replicating the microclimate. Fluid (read gas) dynamics, heat and mass transfer are incredibly difficult to measure sans-interference, and, without these measurements would be hard to simulate effectively.

Serge, your thoughts on the importance of soil are no doubt valid, however to suggest that soil is the be-all and end-all when it comes to making decent wine... , well, I think more research is required before you start writing your thesis..

Just my thoughts

[Chow Chow]

Common Serge,
Saw ur "troll" on the French's over @ WLDG.
How come ur palate took a sudden detour?

[Serge Birbrair]

me? expereinced? VERY far from it! what I have working for me is a vigor of the "fresh eye" to notice things some stopped analysing many moons and bottles ago.

Serge,

As someone has already mentioned, your enthusiasm is to be lauded but it also needs to be tempered with little reality.

One thing you may have failed to notice on this forum is that the majority of posters are extremely enthusiastic about wine. I would doubt there would be too many people here that could be accused of having "stopped analysing many moons and bottles ago."

Also, if you are as genuinely keen to learn as you say you are, when someone like Mark says he has a university degree, and not just a common or garden one, but a masters with honours in a subject that forms one of the underlying key stones in the debate, suggesting that he prove his point is .... .... well not to put this politely, is stupid and rude.

In that position, he has the runs on the board and it's up to you, assuming you are seriously interested in learning, and not just blowing your own trumpet, to prove that he is wrong. Just because you may think he is does not make it so.

Whilst the emotion of a foggy wine orgasm maybe earth shattering and wonderful, when you post a huge claim, no matter what the reason behind it, the facts need to be there to back it up or you will quickly lose credibility.

Where are all here to learn about wine, that's why we post.

TORB,
1) what credibility are you talking about????
Is this a scientific symposium?
Are we making earth shuttering discoveries here?
c'mon, thius is a BEVERAGE we are talking about here,
NOTHING more and your attempt of taking ourselves WAY to serious is ruining the moment...mostly for you

Wine should make the heart jolly,
don't turn into an academia, you take all fun out of drinking process


2) What reality are you talking about? YOUR reality is not MY reality,
and in a FREE SOCIETIES everybody is entitled to their own realities,
especialy in the realities where the scientific facts and formulas are at miss. NONE of us can prove our SUPPOSITIONS with mathematic formulas, therefore,
MY supposition is as good as yours, or you'd prove me wrong 10 posts ago with FORMULAS, but we both know you can't....

3) As for Degrees, I have an Electrical Engineer Degree in High Voltage Transmission lines. Will you take for granted everything I say about the effects on vineyards the high voltage transmission lines have? It would be foolish, to say politely, if you do.

4) as for posting facts:
if you get me the funding,
$220,000,000 US would be enough,
I'll conduct the study on the root level and post my findings....I bet there is a reason NONE has been done so far ....winemaking is not an exact science.

[Serge Birbrair]

Serge, your thoughts on the importance of soil are no doubt valid, however to suggest that soil is the be-all and end-all when it comes to making decent wine... , well, I think more research is required before you start writing your thesis..

Just my thoughts

I never said that. First of all, what is DECENT wine? I'm sure all of us have different opinions on the matter. My Spanish Tintos de Toro, California Cabs, Australia Shirazes, are all VERY DECENT wines,
and for some it's a dreks.

Secondary,
this might not have come clear, but what I basically was reffering and fascinated by was the metamorphosis the wine was going thru, as the minerals contained in it were getting AERATION and how it changed in the mouth in time/space continuum


I guess the post I made originally made perfect sense to me with CONJUNCTION of my first wine orgasm post.

[bigkid]

At the risk of exposing my lack of experience, if it is just about the soil then how can vintages of the same wine from the same vineyard taste so different from one year to the next??

Regards,

Allan