I've read a few comments about Henschke's problems with some of their Eden Valley reds in the late 90's.
Do you think this problem occurred because they took their eye off the ball and started trying to introduce new wines (like Henry's Seven et al) from other regions and didn't pay enough attention to their Eden Valley wines?
Why do wineries feel the need to constantly grow bigger and diversify?
Surely if you owned henschke you would be happy making Hill of Grace, Mt Edelstone, Cyril, Keyneton and Abbot's Prayer and continue to make these wines to an exceptional standard and not need to expand your range?
You don't see Wendouree making an Adelaide Hills Pinot or a Wratonbully Shiraz Viogner and they are going along quite nicely I'm sure.
Henscke
The $64 question - what's happened to Henschke?
For mine they started to slip off the radar in the mid 90s with increasing prices and falling quality. Sounds like Penfolds doesn't it?
Now what caused that slip in quality or wow factor I'm not sure. Theories abound, everyone has had a say and the dreaded Brett has been mentioned more than once.
A good read can be had on torbwine.com where it has been the subject of many column inches. Worth a read if you haven't already.
I actually like Henry's Seven but the higher priced wines haven't made it into my cellar for many a long year now despite me being a big Edelstone and HOG fan through the eighties and early nineties.
For mine they started to slip off the radar in the mid 90s with increasing prices and falling quality. Sounds like Penfolds doesn't it?
Now what caused that slip in quality or wow factor I'm not sure. Theories abound, everyone has had a say and the dreaded Brett has been mentioned more than once.
A good read can be had on torbwine.com where it has been the subject of many column inches. Worth a read if you haven't already.
I actually like Henry's Seven but the higher priced wines haven't made it into my cellar for many a long year now despite me being a big Edelstone and HOG fan through the eighties and early nineties.
Cheers - Steve
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
If you can see through it, it's not worth drinking!
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JamieBahrain
- Posts: 3754
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:40 am
- Location: Fragrant Harbour.
Ratcatcher
Interesting questions and a worthy debate.
As a sweeping generalisation, I would suggest the Henschke reputation attracts a 20% premium at it's bottom end.
If people are willing to pay this kind of premium what should Henschke do? They experienced profiteering on their HofG cellar door releases for many years, before taking a more proactive approach to pricing.
Reference should they concentrate on their Top Gun wines? I would say no. Henry's Seven is where Johann's Garden was 5 years ago. An evolving style.
Johann's Garden is a remarkable wine in grand vintages, one of the few successful GSM's this country produces, which comes into remarkable harmony in just a few years of bottle age.
Perhaps Henry's 7 and other new labels will do similar. Refreshingly individual styles with the arrogance of reputation!
I must add, as a loyal supporter of Henschke, my dismay and disappointment with rumours of poor storage conditions.
You pay a premium for Henschke wines, expensive quality control measures should be expected. This a swipe at the distributors aswell.
Interesting questions and a worthy debate.
As a sweeping generalisation, I would suggest the Henschke reputation attracts a 20% premium at it's bottom end.
If people are willing to pay this kind of premium what should Henschke do? They experienced profiteering on their HofG cellar door releases for many years, before taking a more proactive approach to pricing.
Reference should they concentrate on their Top Gun wines? I would say no. Henry's Seven is where Johann's Garden was 5 years ago. An evolving style.
Johann's Garden is a remarkable wine in grand vintages, one of the few successful GSM's this country produces, which comes into remarkable harmony in just a few years of bottle age.
Perhaps Henry's 7 and other new labels will do similar. Refreshingly individual styles with the arrogance of reputation!
I must add, as a loyal supporter of Henschke, my dismay and disappointment with rumours of poor storage conditions.
You pay a premium for Henschke wines, expensive quality control measures should be expected. This a swipe at the distributors aswell.
Ratcatcher
"Why do wineries feel the need to diversify and grow?"
Excellent, excellent question!
In our winery we say that greed is the mother of all stuff-ups.
Greed has many forms--overcropping, over-pricing, over pressing, and stretching blends too far. (plus too many wines..too many markets etc)
Sometimes its driven by the need to build an asset for growing families, though like you I'd sugest that the best asset is a bloody good consistent top end wine!
We actually took the approach to make less, make better for the next few years and really build our brand. Less wine, better oak, more wine at the top end...equals way easier to sell. ie In this market you have to well and truly over-deliver for the price.
Its a principal you could apply at every level in the wine industry, though it seems to be ignored at the mega winery level!
Cheers
Smithy
home of the mega-red
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Ratcatcher
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Hobart
I haven't had any vintages of Mt Edelstone from the eighties or early nineties, but I might be the odd one out here saying that I thought the '01 Edelstone was great. I had no problem with brett (from memory) and have a couple sitting away for consumption in a few years. I'll be having a vertical of Edelstone in six weeks time, with '98, '99, '00, '01 and two from the early nineties, so my opinion may be more informed at that stage. Certainly looking forward to the '02 vintage release.
Max
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
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JamieBahrain
- Posts: 3754
- Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:40 am
- Location: Fragrant Harbour.
Ratcatcher
In the Rhone, Guigal produces the famous La'La's; but the majority of it's production the cheap Cotes du Rhone. Chapoutier has a mind boggling line up, aswell as single vineyard superstars. Jaboulet etc.
So it is common.
If they were producing rubbish wines you would suggest Henschke should concentrate on it's single vineyard shiraz of world famous repute but.....
Subtract the Hensche premium and consider...
Johann's Garden- Idiosyncric GSM. Comes together with a few years bottle age with complexity and harmony few in Australia achieve.
Cyril Henschke- beautifully crafted cabernet sauvignon. Expensive yes, but remember the inevitable Henschke premium.
Keyneton Estate- Henschke premium considered, often very good.
Giles Pinot Noir- Can be very good.
Abbott's Prayer- In excellet vintages, one of the few worthwhile merlot
blends in the country.
There is a premium with Henschke wines, the above cost a little extra because of the pull up effect of a small winery producing such famous shiraz. Conversely, the perils of reputation, when a rough run of vintages affect HofG & Mt Ed, there is a pull down affect on the rest of your portfolio.
Henschke are too innovative and skilled to be restricted to Mt Ed & HofG IMHO.
In the Rhone, Guigal produces the famous La'La's; but the majority of it's production the cheap Cotes du Rhone. Chapoutier has a mind boggling line up, aswell as single vineyard superstars. Jaboulet etc.
So it is common.
If they were producing rubbish wines you would suggest Henschke should concentrate on it's single vineyard shiraz of world famous repute but.....
Subtract the Hensche premium and consider...
Johann's Garden- Idiosyncric GSM. Comes together with a few years bottle age with complexity and harmony few in Australia achieve.
Cyril Henschke- beautifully crafted cabernet sauvignon. Expensive yes, but remember the inevitable Henschke premium.
Keyneton Estate- Henschke premium considered, often very good.
Giles Pinot Noir- Can be very good.
Abbott's Prayer- In excellet vintages, one of the few worthwhile merlot
blends in the country.
There is a premium with Henschke wines, the above cost a little extra because of the pull up effect of a small winery producing such famous shiraz. Conversely, the perils of reputation, when a rough run of vintages affect HofG & Mt Ed, there is a pull down affect on the rest of your portfolio.
Henschke are too innovative and skilled to be restricted to Mt Ed & HofG IMHO.
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Craig(NZ).
Well over here in NZ the whites are never really considered, iive dabbled in the riesling but everything else was way way over priced compared to NZ whites of comparable quality.
Keyneton - I used to buy but sorry, the prices they ask for it in NZ now are just way way crazy. Henschke is one of the few premium aussie wines where its cheaper to buy it in Aussie than NZ!! Greedy distributor no doubt
Edelston - Since 1994, has there really been a spellbinding edelston? and again it is way way to expensive now. I bought the 94 for $41!
Cyril - Hit a good vintage and it is spellbinding. 93, 94,96,98. Hit a vintage like 95 and you wonder what the fuss is about. Very expensive, never consider now really out of my price range
HOG - Ive tried a few vintages. Havent bought since the 1992, my bank balance aint in that league! I have kids need I say more?
Abbotts Prayer - Sorry I dont get Aussie merlot especially at this price. I stick to Hawkes Bay and most kiwis think that way when it comes to merlot.
Keyneton - I used to buy but sorry, the prices they ask for it in NZ now are just way way crazy. Henschke is one of the few premium aussie wines where its cheaper to buy it in Aussie than NZ!! Greedy distributor no doubt
Edelston - Since 1994, has there really been a spellbinding edelston? and again it is way way to expensive now. I bought the 94 for $41!
Cyril - Hit a good vintage and it is spellbinding. 93, 94,96,98. Hit a vintage like 95 and you wonder what the fuss is about. Very expensive, never consider now really out of my price range
HOG - Ive tried a few vintages. Havent bought since the 1992, my bank balance aint in that league! I have kids need I say more?
Abbotts Prayer - Sorry I dont get Aussie merlot especially at this price. I stick to Hawkes Bay and most kiwis think that way when it comes to merlot.
JamieBahrain wrote:Ratcatcher
In the Rhone, Guigal produces the famous La'La's; but the majority of it's production the cheap Cotes du Rhone. Chapoutier has a mind boggling line up, aswell as single vineyard superstars. Jaboulet etc.
So it is common.
But the 3 houses you mention are giants of the industry. Henschke are minute by comparison. Guigal's cotes du Rhone must be made at Koonunga Hill volume, surely? Henschke is a different kind of animal entirely.
cheers,
Graeme
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Ratcatcher
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Hobart
That's sort of what I was getting at Graeme.
Henschke in the mid-90's must have been only slightly bigger than boutique level. To expand into new areas, new vineyards and new wines must have really stretched their talent and expertise just that bit thinner and is that what caused the reported decline in the major reds?
Instead of devoting 100% of their effort to the main wines did they divert 30% of their attention to developing new wines and vineyards and (unintentionally) neglect the reds that had served them so admirably for so long?
Henschke in the mid-90's must have been only slightly bigger than boutique level. To expand into new areas, new vineyards and new wines must have really stretched their talent and expertise just that bit thinner and is that what caused the reported decline in the major reds?
Instead of devoting 100% of their effort to the main wines did they divert 30% of their attention to developing new wines and vineyards and (unintentionally) neglect the reds that had served them so admirably for so long?
Ratty, I don't mean to sound hostile (and rather wish to be educated), but what source states this "reported decline in major reds"? The big name reviewers like RPJ, Halliday and Hooke all have very nice things to say about the current 'big four' Henschke wines, and although some suffered on poorer vintages (like '99 and '97) I was under the impression the general outlook has been positive. Notes from verticals of HoG tastings have indicated that the current vintages could be at a '90/'91 vintage level, although as always it's very hard to tell so early.
I do enjoy Henschke wines, although I'm not a sworn advocate by any means. Despite the big wraps for the '02 Johanns Garden, I found it a little 'simple' and raise an eyebrow at its cellaring potential (definitely drink now IMO). However, of their wines that I've tasted, I haven't found faults but understand that different wines appeal to different people. I would be interested to hear anyone's feedback who's been privy to an Abbott's Prayer, Cyril, Edelstone or HoG vertical from 80's vintages to current. Perhaps we're being to hasty in our appraisals and need to drink the 'late nineties' reds in ten years time, as people are drinking the late eighties and early nineties reds now...
Cheers,
I do enjoy Henschke wines, although I'm not a sworn advocate by any means. Despite the big wraps for the '02 Johanns Garden, I found it a little 'simple' and raise an eyebrow at its cellaring potential (definitely drink now IMO). However, of their wines that I've tasted, I haven't found faults but understand that different wines appeal to different people. I would be interested to hear anyone's feedback who's been privy to an Abbott's Prayer, Cyril, Edelstone or HoG vertical from 80's vintages to current. Perhaps we're being to hasty in our appraisals and need to drink the 'late nineties' reds in ten years time, as people are drinking the late eighties and early nineties reds now...
Cheers,
Max
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
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Avant d’être bon, un vin doit être vrai
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Ratcatcher.
Max,
No worries. I never take e-mail/forum type comments as being hostile. You always have to allow for the fact that you can't give your e-mails a tone of voice. I guess that's why those emoticons were created.
Anyway, my sources. The major ones are this forum, Winestar forum, comments from my local wine shop manager, TORB's article and (without checking) my recollections that the Penguin wineguide gave low ratings to the late 90's vintages of Henschke's major red wines. Penguin have also ommitted the Henschke traditinal reds from the last 2 guides. I assumed they chose to omit them rather than say anything negative about them after rreading other people's comments on wine forums etc. I have no opinion myself, not having tasted any but I've read so many negative or disappointing comments about them that I assume there must be a problem.
My question was merely assuming there is/was a problem was the cause of the problem being distracted by trying to expand and grow their new brands? Expansion at the cost of quality is one of my pet hates. I admire wineries like Wendouree who are happy to just continue to excel at what they do without the need to build an empire.
I, like you, have been a huge fan of Henschke since I first started drinking wine. When I started buying higher quality wine Mt Edelstone was one of the ones I first sought out and I've loved every bottle I've ever consumed. Hearing the negative comments about their wines makes me extremely sad. While their premium wines have gradually slipped out of my normal buying range it comforted me to know that they were still there as good as ever. I just hope that they haven't spread their rsources and talents too thin in the pursuit of other wines and that their traditional reds continue to be as great as they always have been.
Cheers
No worries. I never take e-mail/forum type comments as being hostile. You always have to allow for the fact that you can't give your e-mails a tone of voice. I guess that's why those emoticons were created.
Anyway, my sources. The major ones are this forum, Winestar forum, comments from my local wine shop manager, TORB's article and (without checking) my recollections that the Penguin wineguide gave low ratings to the late 90's vintages of Henschke's major red wines. Penguin have also ommitted the Henschke traditinal reds from the last 2 guides. I assumed they chose to omit them rather than say anything negative about them after rreading other people's comments on wine forums etc. I have no opinion myself, not having tasted any but I've read so many negative or disappointing comments about them that I assume there must be a problem.
My question was merely assuming there is/was a problem was the cause of the problem being distracted by trying to expand and grow their new brands? Expansion at the cost of quality is one of my pet hates. I admire wineries like Wendouree who are happy to just continue to excel at what they do without the need to build an empire.
I, like you, have been a huge fan of Henschke since I first started drinking wine. When I started buying higher quality wine Mt Edelstone was one of the ones I first sought out and I've loved every bottle I've ever consumed. Hearing the negative comments about their wines makes me extremely sad. While their premium wines have gradually slipped out of my normal buying range it comforted me to know that they were still there as good as ever. I just hope that they haven't spread their rsources and talents too thin in the pursuit of other wines and that their traditional reds continue to be as great as they always have been.
Cheers
Without wishing to add fuel to the fire in this debate, because I have already been very vocal on the subject; indeed, some people may say that Jeremy Oliver first started it and I threw on a can of avigas, during the week I opened up a bottle of 1997 Mt Edelsten, and whilst it was drinkable, it was also riddled with Brett.
Basically, in my opinion, from everything I have been able to ascertain the questionable wines were produced in the second half of the 90s. The 2001 reds that I have tried were credible. Hopefully, the problem is now fixed and Henschke will once again produce top-quality wines.
Value is still a matter for the consumers individual consumers circumstance.
Basically, in my opinion, from everything I have been able to ascertain the questionable wines were produced in the second half of the 90s. The 2001 reds that I have tried were credible. Hopefully, the problem is now fixed and Henschke will once again produce top-quality wines.
Value is still a matter for the consumers individual consumers circumstance.