TN: Wynn's 'John Riddoch' Cabernet Sauvignon 1985

[Waiters Friend]

Decanted 20 minutes before service, and could have done with more air-time. I am obviously still to master the art of judging air-time vs age.

For the first 15 minutes after pouring, all I could sense was tobacco, and this comment came from a couple of other tasters as well. It opened up to show some menthol, a touch of VA, leather (one taster differentiated this by suggesting 'young leather'), capsicum and tomato leaf. Most of the fruit had gone from the palate, with sour redcurrant being the dominant fruit character. Tannins have fully integrated, and there's a reasonable palate weight with largely savoury characters.

I suppose this raises the question of whether a wine is over the hill, or in tertiary development. Not sure on this occasion, but a fascinating wine nevertheless.

Cheers
Allan

[Ian S]

I suppose this raises the question of whether a wine is over the hill, or in tertiary development. Not sure on this occasion, but a fascinating wine nevertheless.

Cheers
Allan

A question that IME tends to elicit answers that vary around the table. Not everyone likes older wines (I very much do) and enjoyment of older wines often requires an acceptance of one or more issues, that can be outweighed by unique complexity. Indeed I'll indulge in a little tautology by saying that older wines can give complex complexity, in that each sip or sniff can reveal something different and the wine can change significantly in the glass.

[Waiters Friend]

I suppose this raises the question of whether a wine is over the hill, or in tertiary development. Not sure on this occasion, but a fascinating wine nevertheless.

Cheers
Allan

A question that IME tends to elicit answers that vary around the table. Not everyone likes older wines (I very much do) and enjoyment of older wines often requires an acceptance of one or more issues, that can be outweighed by unique complexity. Indeed I'll indulge in a little tautology by saying that older wines can give complex complexity, in that each sip or sniff can reveal something different and the wine can change significantly in the glass.

Thank you Ian - this is exactly the sort of discussion I hoped my question would provoke. I have some, but not extensive. experience with older wines, and my issue is more about how to describe them, rather than whether I am relishing the experience. In the case of the JR 85, it changed somewhat in the glass, but not extensively (over 2 hours) and I enjoyed what I saw, without being blown away. Hence the question!

[Ian S]

Older wines can certainly be harder to describe. We lean on the typical varietal characteristics in describing younger wines, indeed we're probably pre-conditioned to look for the varietal clues!

With older wines, especially really old wines that most people would say are clearly on the downslope, the aromas and flavours can be more unusual/unexpected. Indeed that's one reason I still get great enjoyment on wines that are over mature. That might mean I'm sniffing a wine for 5-10 minutes before even taking a sip, which means I can be a very slow drinker (often falling behind everyone else at sit-down tastings )

[Waiters Friend]

You're perfectly correct, Ian. In this instance the 85 JR was an 'extra' that some of the wine remained in the decanter for a couple of hours. The tasting notes reflects that slightly extended viewing window.

[Chuck]

The generally poor SA 85 vintage may have something to do with it. Even the 85 Grange was pretty ordinary. Difficult to make a silk purse.....

[Ozzie W]

The legendary winemaker John Wade left Wynns when it was purchased by Penfolds in 1985. Apparently he was very disappointed when they chose to release the 1985 John Riddoch. He didn't think it was good enough.

[JamieBahrain]

Very well received wine with Old World drinkers in a recent vertical though my palate more reflects Allan's comments.


1985 Wynns Coonawarra Estate Cabernet Sauvignon John Riddoch- Pine-smoke, plum. green peppers and soy/caramel development. Again presents medium-full, the age presents a very mellow fruit profile - a component of the overall ethereality of the wine- cleanly completing with a noted purity and length.

1 First 1 Second 0 Lasts

8th for Me and Third for Group.

[Mahmoud Ali]

"Tobacco", "leather", "capsicum", "tomato leaf", "savoury", are some of the things in old wine that make my mouth water so a bit of VA and sour fruit are but distractions and are easily tolerated in the presence of the former. I also like old wines and, to repeat what I have said before, when it comes to fruit and tannin they are a dime a dozen on store shelves.

I am puzzled by references to the 1985 vintage being poor and that the winemaker John Wade thinking the wine was not good enough to be released since Allan’s note tells me that the wine has matured very well - now almost 35 years of age. Barossa cabernet couldn’t have been all that bad because the 1985 Pyrus won the Jimmy Watson Trophy.

Mahmoud.

[Ian S]

Hi Mahmoud
I'm just wondering whether this has simply highlighted the differences in our palates - that you and I would find such flavours / aromas enticing, whilst others would bemoan the fruit being in the background. Indeed my enjoyment of what some might call the 'greener' tastes/aromas has led me to pursue Loire Cabernet Franc, which has been a joy explore recently.

FWIW I recall tasting Ch. Lynch-Bages 1980 and 1982 side by side about a decade ago. I preferred the 1980, and I put this down to a combination of a lighter vintage plus a little extra age, putting it in a lovely place for drinking. The 1982 had much greater depth of fruit, but had much less complexity. Maybe now the 1982 is now in that stage of complexity, but at almost 30 years old (when we drank it), many would have seen it as fully mature and just where they'd want it. Different strokes for different folks.

Regards
Ian

[phillisc]

Interesting this one, and as the fruit quality in 82 was top shelf, so good that there was insight to launch JR (John Wade was/is a great winemaker), it started the ball rolling. I have always found 82 and 84 to be good wines, have had a dozen of each. Equally the 5 or 6 bottles of 85 have been very sound. The two vintages which have troubled me most are the 86 and 87. I have had good (never great) and ordinary bottles of 86 and of the handful of 87s, again quite inconsistent. 88s are somewhere in between. Perhaps the last three need more time to come round!!??

Anyway looking forward to knocking most of these off in this decade.
Cheers Craig.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I'm just wondering whether this has simply highlighted the differences in our palates - that you and I would find such flavours / aromas enticing, whilst others would bemoan the fruit being in the background. Indeed my enjoyment of what some might call the 'greener' tastes/aromas has led me to pursue Loire Cabernet Franc, which has been a joy explore recently.

I really like what you call the "greener" elements in wine, even a certain stemminess in conjunction with fruit to add a savoury element. I am embarrassed to say I have no Loire reds in my cellar, my only defense being its limited availability in my area.

FWIW I recall tasting Ch. Lynch-Bages 1980 and 1982 side by side about a decade ago. I preferred the 1980, and I put this down to a combination of a lighter vintage plus a little extra age, putting it in a lovely place for drinking. The 1982 had much greater depth of fruit, but had much less complexity. Maybe now the 1982 is now in that stage of complexity, but at almost 30 years old (when we drank it), many would have seen it as fully mature and just where they'd want it. Different strokes for different folks.

It's interesting that you brought up the 1980 Lynch Bages. Many years ago, when I first started collecting wine, the 1982 Bordeaux had come and gone and the effect of that vintage on Bordeaux prices had been firmly entrenched. Since we had government stores at that time the prices of the 1980s were frozen in time, still based on the old purchase price. The 1980 Lynch-Bages were selling for something around the C$10 mark. I bought quite a few of them and at one point I traded three bottles of the 1980 Lynch-Bages for a single bottle of 1981 Ducru-Beacaillou. The remaining few bottles of the '80 Lynch-Bages that I drank many years later were lovely and I have since then regretted the trade.

Cheers ................... Mahmoud.

[Ian S]

C$10 ?!!!! I hate you

[Mahmoud Ali]

C$10 ?!!!! I hate you

Well, it was in 1985 or 1986, and I think they were discounted by a few dollars since it was considered a poor vintage and the 1983 were coming onto the market. If I recall the '81 Lynch was about C$18 at the time.