Sounds like a superb tasting.
We were thinking of you last night while drinking an excellent Centenary 1991. Good bottles are still sublime. This one was so fresh and alive. Also loved an excellent Mount Pleasant Lovedale Semillon 1998. Thanks to dave vino for both bottles. Cork gods were having a fruit day yesterday!
TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Bergerac was the location for the tasting, with 10 of us around the big round table at the back. Second visit and it really is a good location. The service is relaxed and the French food is a good match to most styles of wine.
Woke up this morning with the taste of 3 different wines on my toungue, which has never happened before. As has already been mentioned there were some issues with some of the bottles, but it was not straight forward. Was it TCA, a touch of oxidation, travel shock, too much oak, open too long (or not long enough)? For all but a few wines there really was not a consistent opinion. Everyone brought there own glasses and that may have contributed to the divergence - as we all know the same wine tasted in 2 different glasses can show considerable differences.
I am not going to write my notes for all the wine – there were just too many – but I will comment on each flight
Flight 1. 65 (3*) and 68 (2.5*) BL
Great colour on the 65 and it had good cassis fruit on the nose and the mid palate. The finish was clipped though and became harder and shorter with air. One of these 30 minute old wines although it was still drinkable at the end of the evening. The 68 was one of those wines that could easily be written off as dead. Lots of brown, tertiary flavours and oxidative notes. It picked up though in the glass and it was not long before a raspberry liquer flavour emerged from the mid palate. It is one for the necrophiles, but I was one of the few who preferred it to the 65
Flight 2 70(4*),72 (2*) and 76 (5*) BL
My 72 was spoiled by my glass, which was reeking of detergent. My own fault. I could still pick up a lot of raisins though and although this was old, it would have enjoyed it in a clean glass. The 70 has all the flavours I was expecting of an old JR. The nose was sweaty, the palate complex. By itself at a dinner it would be the star, but I tasted it after the 76 and it suffered by comparison. My notes for the 76 start “Balance, balance, balance’. Refined and poised this is an effortless wine that caresses the palate with the essence of Cabernet. Beautiful and although a few thought that it fell away a bit too quickly, my guess is that it needs further time in order for the complexity to really appear.
Flight 3 82 BL (5*) & JR (5*)
This is where things started to go AWOL. Served blind the JR was very similar to the 76 BL. It was a controlled, pure and powerful expression of cassis and violets. Yum. The BL was a much more complex wine, with all the tomato leaf and paprika I was expecting from the JR. Bags of fruit, long and probably at its peak. Wine of the night for most people, and when we voted, most thought that this was the JR. Fantastic flight.
Flight 4 86 BL (3*) and JR (3*)
The flight I was most looking forward to and correspondingly the most disappointing. The BL was the most Bordeaux like wine of the night, with some ceder in amongst the cassis fruit. I wont say it was closed, but it is definetly still young and needs more time. I liked the nose on the JR and even found some curry tones. This had the bell pepper and tomato leaf I was expecting, and while it was in the style of the 82 BL, it was not up to the same level. Again I would say that it needs a bit more time, but maybe its just not the vintage I thought it was.
Flight 5 88 BL 4(*) JR (4*)
Not much difference between these 2. Both were in the fruit forward style and neither had developed the secondary flavours I was hoping for. Apparently this was a cooler year and maybe they overdid the oak slightly, as these were the first wines I actually noticed any. You can drink this now, but I’d be looking to leave both a bit longer
Flight 6 90 BL (2*) JR (2*)
No notes on these as they arrived with the main course. I think there were issues with both bottles, but I’ll have to let someone else fill in the blanks
Flight 7 91 BL (3*), JR (4*), Centenery Release (4*)
The Centenery Release has shiraz in the blend so we expected it to be different to the previous wines. That explained why virtually nobody picked it out of the lineup. The Cab completely dominates and most of us thought it was actually the BL, as it shared the same footprint as the 76 and 82. The JR was the richest of the evening and had a warmth and a fruit profile that marked it out as something different. With some cedar and mulberry this has to be the Centenary. Nope. The BL had some oxidation in the nose, that I thought added to the complexity. Not up to the older vintages, but perfect bottles would probably get a higher rating
The rest of the wines were either faulty or in need of 10-20 years. The 94 JR was corked, the 96 had some oxidation and the 98 was big and burley and displayed none of the complexity a magnum showed last year. The 99 is very primary and needs time. Best of the BL for me was the 98, which had some savoury oak but was very much “a young wine that happens to be 21 years old”. The 99, 96 and 94 were all fruit forward and missing the complexity that will surely develop.
From a tasting with Sue Hodder last year, I know the composition of the JR changes from year to year and that may well explain the fact that we could not get a hang on which wine was JR and which was the BL. Either way, the BL is a great, age worthy wine. Yes, you can find more complex wines, but if you factor in price, you can see exactly why this is the most collected wine in Australia. Unbelievable QPR.
The JR can also be exceptional but may well need even more time to show its best. The 82 is as good as it gets, but may well not be at its peak.
Thanks again to Con for putting on a wonderful event. Amazingly enough we got through all 24 bottles by 10:15
Woke up this morning with the taste of 3 different wines on my toungue, which has never happened before. As has already been mentioned there were some issues with some of the bottles, but it was not straight forward. Was it TCA, a touch of oxidation, travel shock, too much oak, open too long (or not long enough)? For all but a few wines there really was not a consistent opinion. Everyone brought there own glasses and that may have contributed to the divergence - as we all know the same wine tasted in 2 different glasses can show considerable differences.
I am not going to write my notes for all the wine – there were just too many – but I will comment on each flight
Flight 1. 65 (3*) and 68 (2.5*) BL
Great colour on the 65 and it had good cassis fruit on the nose and the mid palate. The finish was clipped though and became harder and shorter with air. One of these 30 minute old wines although it was still drinkable at the end of the evening. The 68 was one of those wines that could easily be written off as dead. Lots of brown, tertiary flavours and oxidative notes. It picked up though in the glass and it was not long before a raspberry liquer flavour emerged from the mid palate. It is one for the necrophiles, but I was one of the few who preferred it to the 65
Flight 2 70(4*),72 (2*) and 76 (5*) BL
My 72 was spoiled by my glass, which was reeking of detergent. My own fault. I could still pick up a lot of raisins though and although this was old, it would have enjoyed it in a clean glass. The 70 has all the flavours I was expecting of an old JR. The nose was sweaty, the palate complex. By itself at a dinner it would be the star, but I tasted it after the 76 and it suffered by comparison. My notes for the 76 start “Balance, balance, balance’. Refined and poised this is an effortless wine that caresses the palate with the essence of Cabernet. Beautiful and although a few thought that it fell away a bit too quickly, my guess is that it needs further time in order for the complexity to really appear.
Flight 3 82 BL (5*) & JR (5*)
This is where things started to go AWOL. Served blind the JR was very similar to the 76 BL. It was a controlled, pure and powerful expression of cassis and violets. Yum. The BL was a much more complex wine, with all the tomato leaf and paprika I was expecting from the JR. Bags of fruit, long and probably at its peak. Wine of the night for most people, and when we voted, most thought that this was the JR. Fantastic flight.
Flight 4 86 BL (3*) and JR (3*)
The flight I was most looking forward to and correspondingly the most disappointing. The BL was the most Bordeaux like wine of the night, with some ceder in amongst the cassis fruit. I wont say it was closed, but it is definetly still young and needs more time. I liked the nose on the JR and even found some curry tones. This had the bell pepper and tomato leaf I was expecting, and while it was in the style of the 82 BL, it was not up to the same level. Again I would say that it needs a bit more time, but maybe its just not the vintage I thought it was.
Flight 5 88 BL 4(*) JR (4*)
Not much difference between these 2. Both were in the fruit forward style and neither had developed the secondary flavours I was hoping for. Apparently this was a cooler year and maybe they overdid the oak slightly, as these were the first wines I actually noticed any. You can drink this now, but I’d be looking to leave both a bit longer
Flight 6 90 BL (2*) JR (2*)
No notes on these as they arrived with the main course. I think there were issues with both bottles, but I’ll have to let someone else fill in the blanks
Flight 7 91 BL (3*), JR (4*), Centenery Release (4*)
The Centenery Release has shiraz in the blend so we expected it to be different to the previous wines. That explained why virtually nobody picked it out of the lineup. The Cab completely dominates and most of us thought it was actually the BL, as it shared the same footprint as the 76 and 82. The JR was the richest of the evening and had a warmth and a fruit profile that marked it out as something different. With some cedar and mulberry this has to be the Centenary. Nope. The BL had some oxidation in the nose, that I thought added to the complexity. Not up to the older vintages, but perfect bottles would probably get a higher rating
The rest of the wines were either faulty or in need of 10-20 years. The 94 JR was corked, the 96 had some oxidation and the 98 was big and burley and displayed none of the complexity a magnum showed last year. The 99 is very primary and needs time. Best of the BL for me was the 98, which had some savoury oak but was very much “a young wine that happens to be 21 years old”. The 99, 96 and 94 were all fruit forward and missing the complexity that will surely develop.
From a tasting with Sue Hodder last year, I know the composition of the JR changes from year to year and that may well explain the fact that we could not get a hang on which wine was JR and which was the BL. Either way, the BL is a great, age worthy wine. Yes, you can find more complex wines, but if you factor in price, you can see exactly why this is the most collected wine in Australia. Unbelievable QPR.
The JR can also be exceptional but may well need even more time to show its best. The 82 is as good as it gets, but may well not be at its peak.
Thanks again to Con for putting on a wonderful event. Amazingly enough we got through all 24 bottles by 10:15
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Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
I agree the BL 1998 is still very young despite being 21 years old. Not sure I want to wait another 10 years for this to soften out. For me this wine is a touch oaky.
Life is too short to drink rubbish wine.
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Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Thanks for the notes MC
Will be interested in Con's musings.
Surprising that the general tone of the BLs at 25 years or more are too young??!!...undeveloped and lack full complexity (whatever that is).
Might as well off load the last dozen plus vintages under screw cap as they will clearly outlive me.
Not surprised about the 82 BL had it 3-4 times up again the JR of the same vintage and the BL just seems to show better...however, its like choosing your favourite child.
Cheers Craig
Will be interested in Con's musings.
Surprising that the general tone of the BLs at 25 years or more are too young??!!...undeveloped and lack full complexity (whatever that is).
Might as well off load the last dozen plus vintages under screw cap as they will clearly outlive me.
Not surprised about the 82 BL had it 3-4 times up again the JR of the same vintage and the BL just seems to show better...however, its like choosing your favourite child.
Cheers Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Craig
I like Old Wine and maybe other would have found the 90’s wine ready to go. We were of course drinking as well as tasting and that makes a big difference. I have drank great bottles of the 98 and 96 JR in the last few years and thought they were ready. When you get the added picture of the older vintages though, opinions recalibrate and my feeling is that both have plenty to go.
Con did not bring every year though, and i imagine some of the other vintages from the 80s and 90s could have been ready/to old etc.
Given there was no JR in the 70’s, I presume these wine will always be a different sort of BL.
I like Old Wine and maybe other would have found the 90’s wine ready to go. We were of course drinking as well as tasting and that makes a big difference. I have drank great bottles of the 98 and 96 JR in the last few years and thought they were ready. When you get the added picture of the older vintages though, opinions recalibrate and my feeling is that both have plenty to go.
Con did not bring every year though, and i imagine some of the other vintages from the 80s and 90s could have been ready/to old etc.
Given there was no JR in the 70’s, I presume these wine will always be a different sort of BL.
This is my church, this is where I heal my hurts.
For tonight, God is the Auswine Wine Forum
For tonight, God is the Auswine Wine Forum
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
I've found this interesting reading, specifically to the point that with age, the BL and the JR present as similar wines and the premium that JR sells for isn't justified.
Imugene, cure for cancer.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Correct, but only up to a point.
If you are collecting old wine at auction, then it seems to hold true. How exactly a recent vintage of BL and JR will age is of course a different question. That’s when you need ‘old timers’ who have followed these wines for years and can make informed guesses based on the past and their knowledge of the current. Even then, selection preferences, new winemakers, businesss pressure etc all mean that everything is up in the air until 2040 when the current wines hopefully reach their plateaus. Oh to have a time machine.
If you are collecting old wine at auction, then it seems to hold true. How exactly a recent vintage of BL and JR will age is of course a different question. That’s when you need ‘old timers’ who have followed these wines for years and can make informed guesses based on the past and their knowledge of the current. Even then, selection preferences, new winemakers, businesss pressure etc all mean that everything is up in the air until 2040 when the current wines hopefully reach their plateaus. Oh to have a time machine.
This is my church, this is where I heal my hurts.
For tonight, God is the Auswine Wine Forum
For tonight, God is the Auswine Wine Forum
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
With bottles this old, I think it all comes down to bottle variation more than anything else. For example, I had a much better bottle of '82 JR last year which was superior to the '82 BL at this tasting.Hacker wrote:I've found this interesting reading, specifically to the point that with age, the BL and the JR present as similar wines and the premium that JR sells for isn't justified.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
At our John Riddoch vertical event many years ago (2010), we too found that once you had tasted through a few of the older ones (82,86,87,88), there comes a point where the more recent vintages start showing poorly in comparison (90,91,94,96). Partially palate fatigue, partially because you enjoy the delicious aged Cabernet characters and miss them once they are no longer apparent. I came away saying 20 years plus! Still remember that amazing 1982.
I wonder if the comparison between BL and JR would still show as evenly with current vintages once they have some age?
I wonder if the comparison between BL and JR would still show as evenly with current vintages once they have some age?
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Here are my notes for the evening. Interestingly and on reflection from this (and other) tastings I seem to be more sensitive to
oxidization than other faults. TCA I can pick as well, but not as well as Ox, and lastly Brett. I dont think im as attune to Brett unless its blatantly obvious. Anyhoo:
1st Flight / 1st Wine - 1968 BL
Much lighter in colour than the second wine. Rusty initially with what i thought was some VA, but that blew off with some air. Lovely earthy notes
here, real tilled earth type character . There is still some slight fruit (very soft fruit at that) but mostly secondary characters. Quite neb like ans was crystal clear, I thought as there was still
some tannin there too. The rusty notes turned more into iron/mineral type thing and some tar later on, I think i preferred this over the 65
1st Flight / 2nd Wine - 1965 BL
Much darker in colour. Didnt pick it as the 65. Dark Plummy red/purple type colour here.... lots more tannin. Big tannin too, covers the mouth. Fruit is still
quite pronounced, cassis and some small cedar. This bottle seemed to be in very good health. Finish was short though.
2nd Flight / 1st Wine - 1976 BL
Wow.... this just leaps out in the glass straight away. Such a classy cab here. Quite herbal with Dried Oregano and some sage, very complex with
Clay, Aniseed and the oak still there. Wonderful wine, although it fell apart in the glass after about an hour (I kept some aside) so I would suggest
it may be at its peak now. Truly amazing wine & best of the flight.
2nd Flight / 2nd Wine - 1970 BL
I have 'damp' written on my notes for the nose. Forest Floor type dampness/aromas. Wet Pine needles and fresh alpine air. Some slight old leather and some iodine
as well.
2nd Flight / 3rd Wine - 1972 BL
Very sweet fruit in this one. Initial chlorine nose, which blew off with some air. Raisins and prunes, lots of
sweetness... almost tawny type characters.
Then it became 'stinky', not sure if it fell over, but I got some wet sock characters later.
Much browner in colour than the other two, blurry as well. Storage or vintage?
3rd Flight / 1st Wine - 1982 BL
Power, elegance and such a commanding wine. Immediately pronounced its quality from the first sniff. Capsicum, eucalypt....
and a purity of fruit I haven't seen in a wine this old. Bright redcurrants and blackcurrants. This still has years ahead of it
and was my wine of the night. So much energy and length this wine was really singing. Surely this was the JR?...... Nope.......
3rd Flight / 2nd Wine - 1982 JR
Earthy, purple fruit. Violets and a little peppery. Doesnt feel like it had the energy or power of the 1st wine which is why
I thought it was the BL. Oh how wrong I was. 2nd time i have had this wine and this bottle definitely didn't show as good as the
1st time, so possibly storage issues.
4th Flight / 1st Wine - 1986 BL
Quite Bordeaux like in its fruit profile. Lots of cassis fruit that is still quite primary. Milk choloclate with a great tannin
profile. Again old leather and those wonderful and dusty type tannins round out the wine. Oak perfectly judged (lead pencil shavings ) and integrated nicely into the wine. While this was a very
good wine, it lacked the power and presence of the 82.
4th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1986 JR
Vegemite yeasty notes immediately on the nose. Quite oaky and it is a little distracting.... either over-oaked, or not integrated yet, cant decide.
Sweet pitted prunes, still dry & chewy tannin. Raisins again suggests riper fruit, higher alcohol and picked later. Thought this was the BL...... nope wrong again *sigh*
Preferred the BL over this.
5th Flight / 1st Wine - 1988 BL
What structure here. Tannins just coating the mouth. Cant decide if its overpowering the wine though. Herbal notes and again sweet black/purple fruits.
5th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1988 JR
Again sweet fruit, but not over ripe this time. Perfectly judged. Again very fruity Blackcurrants and blackberries here.
cedary oak, slight leafy mint and green capsicum.
6th Flight / 1st Wine - 1990 JR
What colour in this wine. No bricking, no browing. Classic vibrant ribena purple. Same leads onto the palate,
just classic coonawarra fruit. Terra Rossa clay, mint & eucalyptus, cassis and again some organo type herbs.
This was really good as well.
6th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1990 BL
Feels like its in a weird spot. High acid that is not integrated. Feels more alcoholic than #1, much oakier than #1 as well.
Not sure about this wine or perhaps the bottle?
6th Flight / 1st Wine - 1991 Centenary
3rd time I have had this wine and this bottle was by far the most interesting as NO ONE picked it as the Cab/Shiraz blend.
The Cabernet fruit was so dominant in this bottle, I thought it was the BL or JR. Elegant Pure fruit, classic coonawarra
fruit again, black/purple and some tobacco / cigar box as well.
Apparently the idea was Michael Shiraz blended with JR Cab...... this bottle they missed the Michael part. Still shaking my head
it was the Centenary!
6th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1991 JR
Feels fuller and more complex than #1. Weighty and silky mouthfeel, rolls around the tongue. Very rich
6th Flight / 3rd Wine - 1991 BL
Musky, highly acidic, VA? Faulty. Slightly oxidised or slightly cooked.
7th Flight / 1st Wine - 1994 JR
Big oak, high acidity, volatile again. Faulty
7th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1994 BL
Very herbal here with some slight mint. Not as powerful as other vintages. Was this a wet year?
Fruit not as prominent either, however oak and acid had integrated nicely with tannins to make a
well rounded wine. It was missing something though, fruit weight maybe,
8th Flight / 1st Wine - 1996 JR
Oxidized
8th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1996 BL
TCA
9th Flight / 1st Wine - 1998 JR
Oxidized & TCA
9th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1998 BL
Just a baby. Large Tannin structure, high acid but not volatile. This
just wasnt in balance yet and needs more time. Still so very youthful
primary black fruits again just not integrated yet. Long life ahead and no rush to open.
10th Flight / 1st Wine - 1999 JR
Wonderful wine here. Im thinking that 99's are a bit of a 'lost vintage' and overshadowed by its 96 & 98 brothers, as I just don't
hear many people talking about Coonawarra 1999.
This Felt more integrated than #2, very silky and the fruit was rich and powerful. Still young, but I wonder what age will
do to this vs the BL. In 20 years I would love to see a new comparison.
10th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1999 BL
Stewed rich fruit. Again very powerful oak and nice acid but its just too young.
All arms and legs, nothing in place and disjointed. This will be a wine to really
watch as it has the possibility of being a great vintage, but not sure yet. Only time will tell.
Thank you once again Con what a wonderful evening.
oxidization than other faults. TCA I can pick as well, but not as well as Ox, and lastly Brett. I dont think im as attune to Brett unless its blatantly obvious. Anyhoo:
1st Flight / 1st Wine - 1968 BL
Much lighter in colour than the second wine. Rusty initially with what i thought was some VA, but that blew off with some air. Lovely earthy notes
here, real tilled earth type character . There is still some slight fruit (very soft fruit at that) but mostly secondary characters. Quite neb like ans was crystal clear, I thought as there was still
some tannin there too. The rusty notes turned more into iron/mineral type thing and some tar later on, I think i preferred this over the 65
1st Flight / 2nd Wine - 1965 BL
Much darker in colour. Didnt pick it as the 65. Dark Plummy red/purple type colour here.... lots more tannin. Big tannin too, covers the mouth. Fruit is still
quite pronounced, cassis and some small cedar. This bottle seemed to be in very good health. Finish was short though.
2nd Flight / 1st Wine - 1976 BL
Wow.... this just leaps out in the glass straight away. Such a classy cab here. Quite herbal with Dried Oregano and some sage, very complex with
Clay, Aniseed and the oak still there. Wonderful wine, although it fell apart in the glass after about an hour (I kept some aside) so I would suggest
it may be at its peak now. Truly amazing wine & best of the flight.
2nd Flight / 2nd Wine - 1970 BL
I have 'damp' written on my notes for the nose. Forest Floor type dampness/aromas. Wet Pine needles and fresh alpine air. Some slight old leather and some iodine
as well.
2nd Flight / 3rd Wine - 1972 BL
Very sweet fruit in this one. Initial chlorine nose, which blew off with some air. Raisins and prunes, lots of
sweetness... almost tawny type characters.
Then it became 'stinky', not sure if it fell over, but I got some wet sock characters later.
Much browner in colour than the other two, blurry as well. Storage or vintage?
3rd Flight / 1st Wine - 1982 BL
Power, elegance and such a commanding wine. Immediately pronounced its quality from the first sniff. Capsicum, eucalypt....
and a purity of fruit I haven't seen in a wine this old. Bright redcurrants and blackcurrants. This still has years ahead of it
and was my wine of the night. So much energy and length this wine was really singing. Surely this was the JR?...... Nope.......
3rd Flight / 2nd Wine - 1982 JR
Earthy, purple fruit. Violets and a little peppery. Doesnt feel like it had the energy or power of the 1st wine which is why
I thought it was the BL. Oh how wrong I was. 2nd time i have had this wine and this bottle definitely didn't show as good as the
1st time, so possibly storage issues.
4th Flight / 1st Wine - 1986 BL
Quite Bordeaux like in its fruit profile. Lots of cassis fruit that is still quite primary. Milk choloclate with a great tannin
profile. Again old leather and those wonderful and dusty type tannins round out the wine. Oak perfectly judged (lead pencil shavings ) and integrated nicely into the wine. While this was a very
good wine, it lacked the power and presence of the 82.
4th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1986 JR
Vegemite yeasty notes immediately on the nose. Quite oaky and it is a little distracting.... either over-oaked, or not integrated yet, cant decide.
Sweet pitted prunes, still dry & chewy tannin. Raisins again suggests riper fruit, higher alcohol and picked later. Thought this was the BL...... nope wrong again *sigh*
Preferred the BL over this.
5th Flight / 1st Wine - 1988 BL
What structure here. Tannins just coating the mouth. Cant decide if its overpowering the wine though. Herbal notes and again sweet black/purple fruits.
5th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1988 JR
Again sweet fruit, but not over ripe this time. Perfectly judged. Again very fruity Blackcurrants and blackberries here.
cedary oak, slight leafy mint and green capsicum.
6th Flight / 1st Wine - 1990 JR
What colour in this wine. No bricking, no browing. Classic vibrant ribena purple. Same leads onto the palate,
just classic coonawarra fruit. Terra Rossa clay, mint & eucalyptus, cassis and again some organo type herbs.
This was really good as well.
6th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1990 BL
Feels like its in a weird spot. High acid that is not integrated. Feels more alcoholic than #1, much oakier than #1 as well.
Not sure about this wine or perhaps the bottle?
6th Flight / 1st Wine - 1991 Centenary
3rd time I have had this wine and this bottle was by far the most interesting as NO ONE picked it as the Cab/Shiraz blend.
The Cabernet fruit was so dominant in this bottle, I thought it was the BL or JR. Elegant Pure fruit, classic coonawarra
fruit again, black/purple and some tobacco / cigar box as well.
Apparently the idea was Michael Shiraz blended with JR Cab...... this bottle they missed the Michael part. Still shaking my head
it was the Centenary!
6th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1991 JR
Feels fuller and more complex than #1. Weighty and silky mouthfeel, rolls around the tongue. Very rich
6th Flight / 3rd Wine - 1991 BL
Musky, highly acidic, VA? Faulty. Slightly oxidised or slightly cooked.
7th Flight / 1st Wine - 1994 JR
Big oak, high acidity, volatile again. Faulty
7th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1994 BL
Very herbal here with some slight mint. Not as powerful as other vintages. Was this a wet year?
Fruit not as prominent either, however oak and acid had integrated nicely with tannins to make a
well rounded wine. It was missing something though, fruit weight maybe,
8th Flight / 1st Wine - 1996 JR
Oxidized
8th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1996 BL
TCA
9th Flight / 1st Wine - 1998 JR
Oxidized & TCA
9th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1998 BL
Just a baby. Large Tannin structure, high acid but not volatile. This
just wasnt in balance yet and needs more time. Still so very youthful
primary black fruits again just not integrated yet. Long life ahead and no rush to open.
10th Flight / 1st Wine - 1999 JR
Wonderful wine here. Im thinking that 99's are a bit of a 'lost vintage' and overshadowed by its 96 & 98 brothers, as I just don't
hear many people talking about Coonawarra 1999.
This Felt more integrated than #2, very silky and the fruit was rich and powerful. Still young, but I wonder what age will
do to this vs the BL. In 20 years I would love to see a new comparison.
10th Flight / 2nd Wine - 1999 BL
Stewed rich fruit. Again very powerful oak and nice acid but its just too young.
All arms and legs, nothing in place and disjointed. This will be a wine to really
watch as it has the possibility of being a great vintage, but not sure yet. Only time will tell.
Thank you once again Con what a wonderful evening.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Thanks for the great report Rossco.
I concur 100% about the 99 JR, a sleeper vintage not in the shadows but in the dungeon, following the hyped 98. The 2-3 bottles I have had were all very good.
What is interesting is that I had a 99 white label Shiraz a few months ago, bright, dark purple, fresh as a daisy, perfect cork...will go another decade.
Wynns at the time was at the crossroads and yes probably lost its way with everything becoming so mechanical, high yields, plenty of irrigation, too much oak, some wines a little green, and no Michael Shiraz for four vintages and no JR for three. I do remember at the time, some 'talk' that the two premiums were under threat, with only a 99 Johnson's Shiraz ( much was exported)...supposedly the no name 99 Michael and the introduction of the first single vineyard release in 01, the Harold Cabernet.
Based on your report and MCs thoughts, might still hold off a bit in opening a few.
Hacker agree with the current pricing, apart from a few back vintage BLs, I have not paid more than $22 for BL and $104 is the most for JR, so that puts it in the territory of comparing 407 to 707. 707 is a good wine, worth six Riddoch's?? but 407 not in the race with BL.
The 16 JR to be released in October this year, rather than August ( for reasons unknown) should be a good wine, and will be hyped off the back of the BL, hopefully has not gone up too much. With no 17 release, will be interesting to see if the label endures.
Thanks again for the notes, good to have a reference here for calibration in the years to come.
Cheers craig
I concur 100% about the 99 JR, a sleeper vintage not in the shadows but in the dungeon, following the hyped 98. The 2-3 bottles I have had were all very good.
What is interesting is that I had a 99 white label Shiraz a few months ago, bright, dark purple, fresh as a daisy, perfect cork...will go another decade.
Wynns at the time was at the crossroads and yes probably lost its way with everything becoming so mechanical, high yields, plenty of irrigation, too much oak, some wines a little green, and no Michael Shiraz for four vintages and no JR for three. I do remember at the time, some 'talk' that the two premiums were under threat, with only a 99 Johnson's Shiraz ( much was exported)...supposedly the no name 99 Michael and the introduction of the first single vineyard release in 01, the Harold Cabernet.
Based on your report and MCs thoughts, might still hold off a bit in opening a few.
Hacker agree with the current pricing, apart from a few back vintage BLs, I have not paid more than $22 for BL and $104 is the most for JR, so that puts it in the territory of comparing 407 to 707. 707 is a good wine, worth six Riddoch's?? but 407 not in the race with BL.
The 16 JR to be released in October this year, rather than August ( for reasons unknown) should be a good wine, and will be hyped off the back of the BL, hopefully has not gone up too much. With no 17 release, will be interesting to see if the label endures.
Thanks again for the notes, good to have a reference here for calibration in the years to come.
Cheers craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
By memory this was discussed as well at the dinner. I believe the consensus was that Penfolds are bringing forward their release date (again) and pushed back Wynns. Word also is the RRP of BL doubled this release but dont quote me on that (we will see in Oct)phillisc wrote:Thanks for the great report Rossco.
The 16 JR to be released in October this year, rather than August ( for reasons unknown) should be a good wine, and will be hyped off the back of the BL, hopefully has not gone up too much. With no 17 release, will be interesting to see if the label endures.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Fantastic notes for an amazing tasting! Very interesting to hear the observations on BL vs JR, and discussions around the various vintages and stylistic changes throughout the 80s and 90s. One observation I have had with the Centenary I've had over the years is a creaminess to the palate from the blend, but again mileage may vary bottle to bottle / taster to taster.
Can someone answer for me - didn't the 82 JR also have a component of shiraz in it? I seem to remember being told this at a Wynn's winemaker's tasting with Sue Hodder (although obviously she did not make the 82) in Sydney about 15 or so years ago, but can't recall precisely (I grabbed the 82 for my table when we were told we could have the remnants of what was in the bottles) and can't seem to find any notes on this.
Can someone answer for me - didn't the 82 JR also have a component of shiraz in it? I seem to remember being told this at a Wynn's winemaker's tasting with Sue Hodder (although obviously she did not make the 82) in Sydney about 15 or so years ago, but can't recall precisely (I grabbed the 82 for my table when we were told we could have the remnants of what was in the bottles) and can't seem to find any notes on this.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Rossco wrote:By memory this was discussed as well at the dinner. I believe the consensus was that Penfolds are bringing forward their release date (again) and pushed back Wynns. Word also is the RRP of BL doubled this release but dont quote me on that (we will see in Oct)phillisc wrote:Thanks for the great report Rossco.
The 16 JR to be released in October this year, rather than August ( for reasons unknown) should be a good wine, and will be hyped off the back of the BL, hopefully has not gone up too much. With no 17 release, will be interesting to see if the label endures.
Yes that's what the young lady told me from TWE, get the Pennies stuff out quick and hold Wynns back.
RRP of $80+ for BL will quickly sound the death knell for the brand...two issues for the 17 release, fruit quality not there, although I still think it will taste alright, and no JR, no single vineyard, would be surprised if there is any V&A ( and even more surprised on why they still continue these two, languishing at around $45 or so, and an ocean of it). So that may mean a bucket load of Gables, Siding, Red stripe and that ridiculous Banker label ( rhymes with something but just can't put my finger on it).
Current make of BL is in the order of 110 000 dozen, lets see who blinks first when after a coupe of days, none sells. Consigned to chuck out racks at the chains...do they really want that?
I am fortunate that I can explore other options to purchase BL, there are usually a few deals going, and to be honest if a multi-national wants to play games, I don't mind buying the wine for $17 a bottle, just like I this year did for another dozen of the 16
Cheers Craig
Last edited by phillisc on Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Kenzo,kenzo wrote:Fantastic notes for an amazing tasting! Very interesting to hear the observations on BL vs JR, and discussions around the various vintages and stylistic changes throughout the 80s and 90s. One observation I have had with the Centenary I've had over the years is a creaminess to the palate from the blend, but again mileage may vary bottle to bottle / taster to taster.
Can someone answer for me - didn't the 82 JR also have a component of shiraz in it? I seem to remember being told this at a Wynn's winemaker's tasting with Sue Hodder (although obviously she did not make the 82) in Sydney about 15 or so years ago, but can't recall precisely (I grabbed the 82 for my table when we were told we could have the remnants of what was in the bottles) and can't seem to find any notes on this.
John Wade's original tasting note for the '82 JR holds pride of place on the pin board in my office.
First line states 100% Coonawarra, 100% Cabernet Sauvignon. Taken from just two blocks, one to the east and one central. Mixture of 66% one year old American and 34% one year old French Oak for 12 months. A further 12 months in new 60% American and 40% French followed, with the wine bottled in December 1984.
Cheers craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Maybe in Australia Wynns will suffer, but im sure TWE will just say (as usual) 'China is our target market who will gladly pay that price of BL'phillisc wrote:
Yes that's what the young lady told me from TWE, get the Pennies stuff out quick and hold Wynns back.
RRP of $80+ for BL will quickly sound the death knell for the brand...two issues for the 17 release, fruit quality not there, although I still think it will taste alright, and no JR, no single vineyard, would be surprised if there is any V&A ( and even more surprised on why they still continue these two, languishing at around $45 or so, and an ocean of it). So that may mean a bucket load of Gables, Siding, Red stripe and that ridiculous Banker label ( rhymes with something but just can't put my finger on it).
Current make of BL is in the order of 110 000 dozen, lets see who blinks first when after a coupe of days, none sells. Consigned to chuck out racks at the chains...do they really want that?
I am fortunate that I can explore other options to purchase BL, there are usually a few deals going, and to be honest if a multi-national wants to play games, I don't mind buying the wine for $17 a bottle, just like I this year did for another dozen of the 16
Cheers Craig
The discussion also on the night was that TWE want to divert some (not sure how much) BL fruit/production into Penfolds brands so in future there will be much less BL produced. Basically I can see how the meetings went down:
Economic boffins: " Lower production means we can charge more"
Management: "Charging more means bigger bonus"
Rest of TWE: "China China China"
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Thanks Craig! I see the mixture was oak, not fruit. In my defense I wasn't spitting much (if at all) that evening, but remember the 82 as a standout.
Simon
Simon
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
I would be staggered if the BL prices turn out as has been quoted, certainly no mention of that at CD a few weeks ago. FWIW, here is my tasting note from the '17 Black Label Cabernet, tasted among all of the upcoming '19 releases at Wynns with Sue Hodder a few weeks agoRossco wrote:By memory this was discussed as well at the dinner. I believe the consensus was that Penfolds are bringing forward their release date (again) and pushed back Wynns. Word also is the RRP of BL doubled this release but dont quote me on that (we will see in Oct)phillisc wrote:Thanks for the great report Rossco.
The 16 JR to be released in October this year, rather than August ( for reasons unknown) should be a good wine, and will be hyped off the back of the BL, hopefully has not gone up too much. With no 17 release, will be interesting to see if the label endures.
2017 Wynns Black Label Cabernet Sauvignon
deep impenetrable core, crimson purple rim, Cassis, blackberries, cedar, beautiful mouth filling fruit, approachable, great structure, balance, finesse
This was a reasonably impressive wine for me, certainly looked to have a good future. Across the board though, 2017 was a difficult year, there is no JR or any Single Vineyard wines. Nor was there any Black Label Shiraz.
Yes, Wynnsday has been put off till about October and Pennies have slipped in, no doubt a corporate decision. Not sure it makes much difference.
veni, vidi, bibi
also on twitter @m_j_short
and instagram m_j_short
also on twitter @m_j_short
and instagram m_j_short
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
If I remember correctly, a long time ago, didn't the Wynn's JR and Michael need a downward price correction due to over ambitious pricing? Of course circumstances have changed as premium pricing rules the day.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Mahmoud, what you maybe referring to was the price of the Lindemans Coonawarra trio and yes they had a price correction back to around $30 IIRC. I brought 6 each of the '12s for $25 a bottle, another no name brand in the Treasury stable that has been bastardised beyond belief. I love the wines, but no CD, essentially only seen online, and released at 2 years of age or thereabouts...shame really! $45 or less is the current price point.Mahmoud Ali wrote:If I remember correctly, a long time ago, didn't the Wynn's JR and Michael need a downward price correction due to over ambitious pricing? Of course circumstances have changed as premium pricing rules the day.
I tend to agree with Malcolm, can't see, even if the strategy at Southbank is to once again shaft the domestic punter and make as much coin as possible up north...but to be honest would the Chinese be clamoring over each other to buy BL...its a good wine, but really not in the realm of the high end stuff.
Anyway all will be revealed in a couple of months.
Cheers craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Had the '91 Centenary last night. Double decant 4 hours before drinking, it looked a pup. Absolutely stunning wine.
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Mahmoud Ali
- Posts: 2954
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:00 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Canada
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Thank you Craig, I think you're right.phillisc wrote:Mahmoud, what you maybe referring to was the price of the Lindemans Coonawarra trio and yes they had a price correction back to around $30 IIRC. I brought 6 each of the '12s for $25 a bottle, another no name brand in the Treasury stable that has been bastardised beyond belief. I love the wines, but no CD, essentially only seen online, and released at 2 years of age or thereabouts...shame really! $45 or less is the current price point.Mahmoud Ali wrote:If I remember correctly, a long time ago, didn't the Wynn's JR and Michael need a downward price correction due to over ambitious pricing? Of course circumstances have changed as premium pricing rules the day.
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:39 am
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Both of you are right.... the 98 Michael and JR had a retail price of circa $80. Then after a few months were repriced at $50. Sadly I bought a case at the original expensive price. The Lindemans change was many years later.Mahmoud Ali wrote:Thank you Craig, I think you're right.phillisc wrote:Mahmoud, what you maybe referring to was the price of the Lindemans Coonawarra trio and yes they had a price correction back to around $30 IIRC. I brought 6 each of the '12s for $25 a bottle, another no name brand in the Treasury stable that has been bastardised beyond belief. I love the wines, but no CD, essentially only seen online, and released at 2 years of age or thereabouts...shame really! $45 or less is the current price point.Mahmoud Ali wrote:If I remember correctly, a long time ago, didn't the Wynn's JR and Michael need a downward price correction due to over ambitious pricing? Of course circumstances have changed as premium pricing rules the day.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Mike, I have a sixer of each of the Wynns 98s, but can't recall a discount, or what I paid for them...but now you mention it, do recall the CD offering refunds.Mike Hawkins wrote:Both of you are right.... the 98 Michael and JR had a retail price of circa $80. Then after a few months were repriced at $50. Sadly I bought a case at the original expensive price. The Lindemans change was many years later.Mahmoud Ali wrote:Thank you Craig, I think you're right.phillisc wrote:
Mahmoud, what you maybe referring to was the price of the Lindemans Coonawarra trio and yes they had a price correction back to around $30 IIRC. I brought 6 each of the '12s for $25 a bottle, another no name brand in the Treasury stable that has been bastardised beyond belief. I love the wines, but no CD, essentially only seen online, and released at 2 years of age or thereabouts...shame really! $45 or less is the current price point.
The Lindies, I think?? was earlier, I received a discount on the 90 St George, at Baily and Baily on Portrush Rd, then a Vintage Cellars and now a DM, and then remember buying 87 and 86 vintages also at a cheaper rate.
I picked up a few loose bottles of the 80 St George museum release plus '83 Hunter Burgundy (Shiraz) plus a 90 something Hunter Semillon.
Funny how the wheel turns and sadly in regard to my above views of what has happened to the brand, I received an offer today for St George cheaper than the price stated above.
Cheers Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
By the way Con ( and apologies for thread hijack), Rossco and Mychurch have given us their thoughts on the tasting, however, what were your highlights?
Cheers
Craig
Cheers
Craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
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Mike Hawkins
- Posts: 2747
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Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Now that you mention it Craig, Lindemans did it twice. One in the 90s and one in recent years
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Thanks for your great notes MC and Ros.
Overall a great fun night, a few duds but no one went home thirsty. To be honest the last few brackets are a bit blurry.
The highlights for me were the 76 and 82 Black Label followed closely by the 82 John Riddoch and 91 Centenary.
Overall a great fun night, a few duds but no one went home thirsty. To be honest the last few brackets are a bit blurry.
The highlights for me were the 76 and 82 Black Label followed closely by the 82 John Riddoch and 91 Centenary.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Thanks Con, appreciate that things can get a bit blurryCon J wrote:Thanks for your great notes MC and Ros.
Overall a great fun night, a few duds but no one went home thirsty. To be honest the last few brackets are a bit blurry.
The highlights for me were the 76 and 82 Black Label followed closely by the 82 John Riddoch and 91 Centenary.
Cheers craig
Tomorrow will be a good day
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
Finally adding my impressions
A mini-vertical of 6 old BL’s in October 2011 highlighted longevity, with 1960 and 1972 looking very smart (72 didnt live up to that performance- need yet a another try!); My prejudice was that JRs had sometimes seemed like Cabernet caricatures with lavish oak overpowering beautiful, albeit riper fruit, and concealed their Coonawarra origins- some amazing 1982 JRs in the last few years forced a review, so I was delighted to attend this recent extravaganza.
To my surprise, on the night with the BL and JRs paired it was not always easy to identify each, and wine of the bracket varied. Highlights included
1976 BL mint/spice/leather (although it faded over time, no disgrace in a >40 y/o wine).
1982 BL fresh, blackcurrant, chalk, mint; overshadowing the 1982 JR - greater impact but not the same balance (still an excellent drink, but not as stellar as some other recent bottles of this wine)
1986 BL barnyard initially, but milk chocolate, blackcurrant, fine tannins
1990 JR mint, Ribena and utterly seductive; the 1990 BL chewier but pretty close
1991 Centenary my WOTN; blackcurrant, cedar, chalk, supple; the JR close behind with still lavish oak, and length; the BL a dubious bottle
We then struck problems with the 94, 96, 98 JR, and the 96 BL; the 99s both looked youthful and with greater complexity to come.
There was no complaint in opening these vintages earlier, depending on your preferences for bottle-developed characters; the tasting showed that the wines have a long, long plateau, typically looking youthful in colour with plenty of vitality. and will provide enormous drinking enjoyment over many years. Screwcap will avoid the oxidation and TCA issues we encountered on some of these historic wines. A fabulous, enjoyable, educational evening overall.
Lesson - BL at a quarter of the price of JR is a cellaring certainty and a bargain.
A mini-vertical of 6 old BL’s in October 2011 highlighted longevity, with 1960 and 1972 looking very smart (72 didnt live up to that performance- need yet a another try!); My prejudice was that JRs had sometimes seemed like Cabernet caricatures with lavish oak overpowering beautiful, albeit riper fruit, and concealed their Coonawarra origins- some amazing 1982 JRs in the last few years forced a review, so I was delighted to attend this recent extravaganza.
To my surprise, on the night with the BL and JRs paired it was not always easy to identify each, and wine of the bracket varied. Highlights included
1976 BL mint/spice/leather (although it faded over time, no disgrace in a >40 y/o wine).
1982 BL fresh, blackcurrant, chalk, mint; overshadowing the 1982 JR - greater impact but not the same balance (still an excellent drink, but not as stellar as some other recent bottles of this wine)
1986 BL barnyard initially, but milk chocolate, blackcurrant, fine tannins
1990 JR mint, Ribena and utterly seductive; the 1990 BL chewier but pretty close
1991 Centenary my WOTN; blackcurrant, cedar, chalk, supple; the JR close behind with still lavish oak, and length; the BL a dubious bottle
We then struck problems with the 94, 96, 98 JR, and the 96 BL; the 99s both looked youthful and with greater complexity to come.
There was no complaint in opening these vintages earlier, depending on your preferences for bottle-developed characters; the tasting showed that the wines have a long, long plateau, typically looking youthful in colour with plenty of vitality. and will provide enormous drinking enjoyment over many years. Screwcap will avoid the oxidation and TCA issues we encountered on some of these historic wines. A fabulous, enjoyable, educational evening overall.
Lesson - BL at a quarter of the price of JR is a cellaring certainty and a bargain.
Re: TN: Wynns Black Label from the 60s to the 90s
In other news: night follows dayscribbler wrote: Lesson - BL at a quarter of the price of JR is a cellaring certainty and a bargain.
Joking aside, this took me a while to realise, but the Black label CS has long been a brilliant wine at a very modest price. JR is itself a briilliant wine, but for me not worth a 50% premium, let alone being 3-4 times the price. I suspect this was a by-product of the likes of Grange, HOG etc. sending their top wines into stratospheric pricing, and many wineries felt they needed to increase the prices of their top wines to keep pace and avoid being seen as 'cheap and nasty'. In it's peer group I think JR will compete well, but few could compete $ for $ with the Black Label CS.